New migration map of haplogroup R1b

[Tone]

You got it Zanipolo. In fact that area probably was very important indeed:

I think this thread would be helpful: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28544-Question-about-R1b-and-IE-languages-in-Iberia

L51:



There is obviously an apparent correlation. However, I am refraining from drawing any conclusions. Is the timing right for Stelae people and L51? I'm reading the Stelae people were from the 4th and 3rd millennia bc which is probably a little too early for L51. Or is it? Perhaps they are unrelated (the Stelae being y-dna "G" maybe), and just following the same route but at different times a thousand years apart? Or maybe r1B makes and entrance very early into Western Europe. I don't know.

 

[Mikewww]

How do you know that the "Stelae People" carried R1b into Europe when the only known remains from such a culture Remedello I
was G2a [Ötzi 3300 BC]; doesnt seem to fit .... or does it;

Arco Stele - 3rd Mil. BC - Remedello II
(decorated with Copper Daggers/Halberds/Axes) compare with Kurgan steles

This is Jeans hypothesis, not mine. However, not to be transparent, I think that Jean's hypothesis appears sound, I'm just not the person to argue on her behalf. Jean M has discussed this, possibly, even on this forum. We need to go look for her remarks. I think we are within only 45-60 days of her book being available.

We need to be careful in assumptions though. The Stelae may only have been used by elite people, as were the Kurgan burials. There is no reason to think any of this groups were pure of anything, although there is something called "amplification" that may have eventually led to one group to have eventually swamped the others gene-wise.

We also need to be careful with ancient DNA. One or two finds are not a broad-based scientific survey. I'm not sure if we'll have a good representative survey of ancient DNA. There are time, geographic, ethnic and social strata dimensions that should be accounted for in surveys.

Here is a tough thing to grapple with that confounds ancient DNA testing to some degree. Ancient populations may have largely died off, particularly on the paternal lineage side of things. Even though R1b-L11 accounts for 110 million men in modern Europe, the best we can tell with TMRCA estimates from long haplotypes is that these men are related to one guy that existed about 3000 BC, give or take. It may be hard to find much L11+ or even L23+ L11- around back then. There just weren't many, maybe. There is no requirement for there have been a large population of R1b back then.

 

[Maciamo]

You got it Zanipolo. In fact that area probably was very important indeed:

I'd still like to know what cultures are associated with the stellae following the pink arrows. Based on the period I can only see the Bell Beaker culture. There are several major problems with the hypothesis that R1b spread around Western Europe through the Bell Beaker people and culture:

1) The oldest subclades of R1b after the Balkans (L51, L11) should all be found in western Iberia, while they are found between Hungary and Scandinavia.

2) R1b-U106 would have developed in Iberia side by side of P312. So how did it end up in northern Germany and Scandinavia and nowhere near south-west Europe ?

3) It is rather far-fetched that the R1b people stopped following the Danube and instead crossed the Alps, made thousands of boats to migrate to Corsica, then Sardinia, then all the way to Portugal and Galicia to start a new culture. How do steppe tribe with a long pastoralist tradition and riding on horses suddenly turn into a maritime people ? Additionally both Portugal and Galicia have the lowest frequency of R1b in Iberia, but plenty of E1b1b, G2a and J2.

4) It would take thousands of well-armed soldiers to invade a densely settled place like the Atlantic coast of Neolithic Iberia. If the R1b people were numerous and powerful enough to do it, why not continue to Central Europe or even take over the whole Italian peninsula ? Why seek the furthest possible place as a launching pad to conquer all Western Europe ? That just doesn't make any sense.

5) The Bell Beaker culture started as a late Neolithic or early Chalcolithic society. The R1b cultures of the Balkans were already in the Bronze Age. It is only because R1b had bronze weapons that they could overthrow the rich, advanced and populous Chalcolithic cultures of south-east Europe so easily. They would have needed their bronze weapons to conquer Iberia too. So how comes that the early Beakers of Iberia had no knowledge of bronze working ? This argument alone is enough to destroy the hypothesis that R1b steppe people founded the Beaker culture in Iberia.


An alternative theory which I could accept (but do not favour) is this one:

R1b people split in two groups after reaching modern Austria. One group continue to the north-west and found the Unetice culture. Another group went around the Alps, either by southern Germany or by northern Italy, ended up in southern France, and then migrated to Iberia, where the (peacefully) mixed with the locals (perhaps because they were vastly outnumbered) and developed the Bell Beaker culture.

In any case, I regard the Bell Beakers as more of a cultural phenomenon than a true ethnic-based culture. Beakers could well have propagated around Europe along the trade routes already established by the Megalithic people. People don't just invade and replace other people without greatly superior technology. The bottom line is that Beaker people were originally a Neolithic people. They could not have conquered and replaced other Neolithic people from western Europe. Therefore they are not the culture with which R1b spread around western Europe.

 

[Mikewww]

L51:

View attachment 5955

There is obviously an apparent correlation. However, I am refraining from drawing any conclusions. Is the timing right for Stelae people and L51? I'm reading the Stelae people were from the 4th and 3rd millennia bc which is probably a little too early for L51. Or is it? Perhaps they are unrelated (the Stelae being y-dna "G" maybe), and just following the same route but at different times a thousand years apart? Or maybe r1B makes and entrance very early into Western Europe. I don't know.

Please note that that Rocca's map is L51xL11 (which are probably DYS426=13 Z2113+) and it generally has very low frequencies. About the maximum is 5%.

At the time we were not aware of the data in this study of East Tyrol.

"Pasture Names with Romance and Slavic Roots Facilitate Dissection of Y Chromosome Variation in an Exclusively German-Speaking Alpine Range" by Niederstatter, et al.

The Tyrol, Austria region A (former Romance speaking areas (Puster, Gail and Villigraten valley) has L51xL11 (in the study this is R-M412/S167*) at a 14% frequency. 14% is an outstanding level for L51xL11 and would be by far the darkest point on Rocca's map.

On another forum Rocca has noted this is near some early copper working site.

I think other considerations are that this location is the first time (from an east to west perpective - furthest east) so far that L23+ L51+ L11- overtakes L23+ L51-, frequency-wise.

 

[Fire Haired]

R1b came to Iberia with Celtic Hallstat migrations at the very very very earliest 3,000ybp. R1b is very popular in Iberia today but it has only been like that for about 2,500 years. Iberia has a very very young R1b subclade R1b Df27 if R1b in western Europe spread from Iberia u would find R1b L51, R1b L11/P310.

R1b P297 spread with Indo European languages. It was first in the norther middle east then got to the steppes(central Russia) and formed into R1b M269 and R1b M73. R1b M73 spread as a small minorty with indo Iranian languages who spread out of Russia with Sinshta- Abasevho cultures. R1b M269 spread probably to the Balkans or somewhere else in eastern Europe from the steppes about 6,000-7,000ybp. Then R1b M269 formed into R1b L51 and spread with Germanic Italo Celtic languages to western Europe about 5,000ybp. By 4,500ybp they where already conquering just about all Bell Beaker in Germany that is why two 4,600 year old Germany Bell Beaker remains had R1b one was for sure R1b M269.

R1b L11 split into R1b S116 which went to southern France and Germany and started Unetice culture and spook proto Italo Celtic. R1b U106 spread to northern Germany eventulley starting the Nordic Bronze age about 4,000ybp. Some R1b U106 was also in the Urnfield culture because 3,000 year old Urnfield R1b i tested its haplotype is was almost for sure R1b U106.

R1b S116 split into R1b U152, R1b L21, R1b Df27.

R1b L21 spread to the British isles with proto Insular Celtic language about 4,000-3,000ybp. R1b U152 where some of the earliest Iron makers in Europe they lived around Switzerland and Austria some spook proto Italic some spoke a Gaulic Celtic language. The Italics migrated and conquered Italy from 3,200-2,800ybp and started Villnoaven culture. The R1b U152 Celts mainly spread their iron making and conquered parts of France and became the Gauls. They also spread Hallestat culture to Iberia but had R1b Df27 from 2,700-2,500ybp. Hallestat started La dene culture both cultures combined where extremely spread out and conquered many areas in eastern Europe to.

R1b in western Europe is defintley connected with Germanic Italo Celtic languages. there is no way it spread from Bell Beaker in Iberia. the R1b in 4,600 year old Bell Beaker in Germany totally goes with what i am saying because by that time R1b and Germanic Italo Celts had conquered bell Beaker in Germany.

 

[Mikewww]

... The bottom line is that Beaker people were originally a Neolithic people. They could not have conquered and replaced other Neolithic people from western Europe. Therefore they are not the culture with which R1b spread around western Europe.

How do you know the Beaker people were originally a Neolithic people? EDIT: deleted error.

You are saying that the Beakers could not have conquered from Western Europe? Are you assuming that the all Beaker folk types originated in Portugal with the first identification of the pottery?

The various regional groups may have different mixes. Are you assuming all Beaker people were of one genetic type? Some of the regional groups, i.e. continental, might have been more successful, per the reflux theory.

Also, is it really required that they conquered Western Europe in one fell swoop? I think in some of your writings you talk of thousands of years of Celtic chieftain dominance. This is what I would call amplification.

 

[Mikewww]

I'd still like to know what cultures are associated with the stellae following the pink arrows. Based on the period I can only see the Bell Beaker culture. There are several major problems with the hypothesis that R1b spread around Western Europe through the Bell Beaker people and culture:

1) The oldest subclades of R1b after the Balkans (L51, L11) should all be found in western Iberia, while they are found between Hungary and Scandinavia.

2) R1b-U106 would have developed in Iberia side by side of P312. So how did it end up in northern Germany and Scandinavia and nowhere near south-west Europe ?

....

This is not Jean's R1b migration map. She has another map for that she calls speculative.

This Stelae trail map is just that, a Stelae trail. The black line/trail may have been most important genetically. I think Jean would agree with that.

I agree with you that an overland migration for R1b-L51/L11 into Western/Central Europe is most likely. Just look at the P312 configuration, U152 in Cisalpine Gaul & Rhine, L21 in N.France& Isles, DF27 in S.France & Iberia. The is configuration suggests and launching from land probably from around the Alps or somewhere along the Danube. The U106 positioning in the German Language area also pulls us towards a continental land route - agreed.

I think the main point of her Stelae trail was to show a linkage from Kemi Oba into Europe. That's it. It think she referred to Harrison and Heyd in describing this.

 

[Fire Haired]

Mikewww there is no Y DNA I found in Bell Beaker culture remains. Is there if there is can u give me the source

 

[Mikewww]

.... R1b in western Europe is defintley connected with Germanic Italo Celtic languages. there is no way it spread from Bell Beaker in Iberia. the R1b in 4,600 year old Bell Beaker in Germany totally goes with what i am saying because by that time R1b and Germanic Italo Celts had conquered bell Beaker in Germany.

Who is saying that all Bell Beaker types of folks originated in Iberia and that there must be some one for one correspondence of pots to people... or should I say men since we are talking about Y haplogroups? My understanding is the women made the pottery, anyway.

Please be sure to read some of the cranium data and to read Desideri. She makes the case that some regional types of Beaker folks involved new people where as some were more of an outgrowth of the prior.

 

[Mikewww]

Mikewww there is no Y DNA I found in Bell Beaker culture remains. Is there if there is can u give me the source

There are a large number of studies and articles on the internet on R1b. We are fortunate in that regards.

"Emerging genetic patterns of the European Neolithic: perspectives from a late Neolithic Bell Beaker burial site in Germany" by Lee, et al., 2012.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22552938

"Ancient DNA analyses of human remains from the Late Neolithic Bell Beaker site of Kromsdorf, Germany showed distinct mitochondrial haplotypes for ... and two males were identified as belonging to the Y haplogroup R1b"​

I made a mistake earlier. It was the Urnfield (Lichenstein) ancient DNA where we found both R1b and I. There were just these two males identified at Kromsdorf, both R1b. This is the oldest R1b find we have, period (2600 BC or so).

 

[Fire Haired]

the I from Urnfield is I2a2b. Also the R!b i but its haplotype on haplogroup predictors every single one said it is for sure R1b S21 which is Germanic. R1b S21 was already in mainland Germany also that some Urnfield spoke a Germanic language or a language extremely related to Germanic.

 

[Mikewww]

... R1b P297 spread with Indo European languages. It was first in the norther middle east then got to the steppes(central Russia) and formed into R1b M269 and R1b M73.

Are you sure about this? I don't think many people are asserting Indo-European languages started out in the northern Middle East. Are you saying they started in Iran?

R1b M73 spread as a small minorty with indo Iranian languages who spread out of Russia with Sinshta- Abasevho cultures.

Could be, but why do you think M73 spread with Indo-Iranians?

... The R1b U152 Celts mainly spread their iron making and conquered parts of France and became the Gauls. ... They also spread Hallestat culture to Iberia but had R1b Df27 from 2,700-2,500ybp. Hallestat started La dene culture both cultures combined where extremely spread out and conquered many areas in eastern Europe to.

...

It looks like you are saying DF27 came into Iberia with Hallstatt and possibly with La Tene. Is that right? DF27 is probably as old as U152 and both are probably older than L21. Diversity in Iberia for DF27 is high so I think it could have been there a long time. Is there any reason why you think DF27 was not in Iberia prior to Hallstatt?

When and how do you think P-Celtic arose in France? That could be important timing-wise?

 

[Fire Haired]

Are you sure about this? I don't think many people are asserting Indo-European languages started out in the northern Middle East. Are you saying they started in Iran?

no all i am saying is R1b P297 was a proto Indo European haplogroup. That does not mean the language started in the mid east R1b P297 migrted to Russia from the northern mid east. No matter what the language spread out of Russia and Ukraine but i still think it is possible R1b )927 in the caucus and northern mid east started the language.

Could be, but why do you think M73 spread with Indo-Iranians?

because it exists in central asia and india there is a good chance is spread with Idno iranians or at least some. Just like how R1a1a1a spread with Italo Celtic Germanic celts even though they had vast majority R1b L51 and R1b L11/P310.

It looks like you are saying DF27 came into Iberia with Hallstatt and possibly with La Tene. Is that right? DF27 is probably as old as U152 and both are probably older than L21. Diversity in Iberia for DF27 is high so I think it could have been there a long time. Is there any reason why you think DF27 was not in Iberia prior to Hallstatt?

Df27 is a R1b S116 subclade R1b S116 is the Italo Celtic haplogroup. It came to Iberia with italo Celtic speakers the first and only ones to migrate to Iberia in a major way where Hallstatt Celts who came 2,700ybp. So yes R1b Df27 has been in Iberia for only 2,700 years at the most. R1b Df27 may be as old as R1b U152 or R1b L21 but maybe not at the most it is probably 3,500-4,000 years old. So it makes sense it came to Iberia from France 2,700ybp. R1b U152 migrated to Italy just 3,000-3,200ybp at the earliest and now it is 40% or more in Italians. The reason R1b Df27 spread so quickly and recently in Iberia is Conquest in wars the native Y DNA haplogroup lines are killed off and it is a quick process by 200 years most of Iberia was speaking a Celtic language.

When and how do you think P-Celtic arose in France? That could be important timing-wise?

i dont know the P- Celtic stuff i dont think is a language family. click here it talks about all the Celtic languages. CeltIberian is in the continental Celtic family just like Gaulic. Also Insular Celtic is kind off special it did not migrate with hallstat and LA dene culture. So it came to Britain and Ireland well over 3,000ybp. Also it seems all other Celtic languages where conquered by Hallstatt and La dene Celtic languages.

 

[Nobody1]

When and how do you think P-Celtic arose in France? That could be important timing-wise?

P-Celtic is connected to P-Italic (common root) so we are talking about the Terremare split [1500 BC] and
Tumulus expansion west [1600-1200 BC] - more substantial expansions (west) occurred during the Urnfield culture;

Wagon burials - Urnfield culture

The Indo-European proto-Keltic migration across modern France occurred from 1600-800 BC;
With Aquitania remaining Iberian [NON-Indo-European] and everything east of the Rhone Ligurian [NON-Indo-European] all the way into Roman times;

 

[Mikewww]

P-Celtic is connected to P-Italic (common root) so we are talking about the Terremare split [1500 BC] and
Tumulus expansion west [1600-1200 BC] - more substantial expansions (west) occurred during the Urnfield culture;

Wagon burials - Urnfield culture

We do have an Urnfielder R1b ancient find at Lichenstein, BTW.

The reason I ask about P-Celtic development is this would be important to Firehair's proposals on Hallstatt, which is after Urnfield coming into Iberia. We know Gaulish is P-Celtic at a later date, but if people coming from France into Iberia were Hallstatt they might have been P-Celtic speaking. However, we don't see that in Iberia's older Celtic. It is archaic Q-Celtic, more like the Irish.

This might lead one to consider the Atlantic Bronze Age as a time and place of early Celtic development. There are very prominent people who agree with this. Namely Koch, the linguist, and Cunliffe, the archaeologist. They collaborated on the book "Celtic from the West". This would be pre-Hallstatt. Notice it is not "Celtic from Central Europe" ???

The Indo-European proto-Keltic migration across modern France occurred from 1600-800 BC; With Aquitania remaining Iberian [NON-Indo-European] and everything east of the Rhone Ligurian [NON-Indo-European] all the way into Roman times;

How do you know no IE was spoken east of the Rhone prior to Roman times? Koch and Cunliffe disagree with you. Do we even know Ligurian is not IE? Whoever puts together the Wikipedia article chose a source that says Ligurian is Indo-European.

"The Ligurian language.... Very little is known about this language (mainly place names and personal names remain) which is generally believed to have been, in the 1st millennium BCE, Indo-European; it appears to have shared many features with other Indo-European languages, primarily Celtic (Gaulish) and Italic (Latin and the Osco-Umbrian languages)"​

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ligurian_language_(ancient)

 

[Nobody1]

We do have an Urnfielder R1b ancient find at Lichenstein, BTW.

Finding R1b in the Urnfield culture zone is not much of a sensation after Bell-Beaker Kromsdorf;
Depends however on the subclade;
Do you know what subclade?

The reason I ask is this would be important to Firehair's proposals on Hallstatt, which is after Urnfield coming into Iberia. We know Gaulish is P-Celtic at a later date, but if people coming from France into Iberia were Hallstatt they might have been P-Celtic speaking. However, we don't see that in Iberia's older Celtic. It is archaic Q-Celtic, more like the Irish.

Do you know about Mil Espaine - there might be more to this Irish/Celto-Iberian Q-Celtic [Gaelic] link than just coincidence and speculations;

This might lead one to consider the Atlantic Bronze Age as a time and place of early Celtic development. There are very prominent people who agree with this. Namely Koch, the linguist, and Cunliffe, the archaeologist. They collaborated on the book "Celtic from the West". This would be pre-Hallstatt. Notice it is not "Celtic from Central Europe" ???

Its debunked;
All in all a good informative book; but Kochs Tartessian theory was debunked; its not an Indo-European language;

How do you know no IE was spoken east of the Rhone prior to Roman times? Koch and Cunliffe disagree with you. Do we even know Ligurian is not IE. Whoever puts together the Wikipedia article chose a source that says Ligurian is Indo-European.

"The Ligurian language.... Very little is known about this language (mainly place names and personal names remain) which is generally believed to have been, in the 1st millennium BCE, Indo-European; it appears to have shared many features with other Indo-European languages, primarily Celtic (Gaulish) and Italic (Latin and the Osco-Umbrian languages"​

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ligurian_language_(ancient)

Thats a long debate;
It involves the emergence of Bronze-age Indo-Europeans [Umbrians] in the Po Valley and
the intermixing with the Pre-Indo-European peoples (Ligurians)

Paul MacKendrick - The Mute Stones Speak (1962)
The terremare are important: they preserve the memory of an immigrant population, distinct in culture from the aborigines. The distinguishing marks of this new culture are knowledge of metal-working, a pottery identifiable by its exaggerated half-moon handles, and the practice of cremation rather than inhumation. On the evidence, we must suppose that this new culture emerged about 1500 B.C. as a fusion of indigenous hut-dwellers and immigrant lakedwellers. Bronze (Horse) bits found in their settlements show that they had domesticated the horse, and there is some evidence, outside the terremare, for dogs as well, described by Randall-Maclver as "doubtless good woolly animals of a fair size."


I have posted a lot about this topic all across this forum (Sources/Quotes from Archaeology & History) just got to find it all;


As for the Ligurians and their territory:

Edwin Guest - Origines Celticae (1883)
Emporion lay a little north of Barcelona, and in calling it the 'Liguan Emporion', Scylax agrees with Thucydides, who represents the Iberian Sicanoi as having been expelled by the Ligues (Ligures) from the Sikanos, i.e. from the basin of the Ebro.
Next to the Ligues, who dwelt in the neighbourhood of this river, came the mixed Iberes, who reached as far as the Rhone. Festus Avienus makes this river the dividing line between the Iberes and the Ligures, who inhabited the Alpine district.

Henry Malden - History of Rome (1830)
Pliny held the Sallyi, Deceates, and Oxybii, tribes upon the coast, to be Ligurians. Strabo is more cautious; and informs us that later writers called the Salyes, who extended along the coast a little further than Massalia (Marseilles), Celto-Ligyes (that is, Gallo-Ligurians), from the intermixture of the Gaulish population; but that the earlier Greeks called them Ligyes, and the country which the Massaliots occupied, Ligystic or Ligurian; and assigned to the Ligurians......This agrees with the account of Scylax, who makes the Rhone the limit of the pure Ligurians.

 

[Mikewww]

no all i am saying is R1b P297 was a proto Indo European haplogroup. That does not mean the language started in the mid east R1b P297 migrted to Russia from the northern mid east. No matter what the language spread out of Russia and Ukraine but i still think it is possible R1b )927 in the caucus and northern mid east started the language.

I don't think many haplogroups are pure much of anything language-wise but I think you are just saying P297* was present in the PIE homeland as PIE developed, right? You mean P297* (pre-M269) rather than something downstream of it? Yes or no?

because it exists in central asia and india there is a good chance is spread with Idno iranians or at least some. Just like how R1a1a1a spread with Italo Celtic Germanic celts even though they had vast majority R1b L51 and R1b L11/P310.

What is the evidence that R1a1a1a spread with Italics or Celtics?

Df27 is a R1b S116 subclade R1b S116 is the Italo Celtic haplogroup. It came to Iberia with italo Celtic speakers the first and only ones to migrate to Iberia in a major way where Hallstatt Celts who came 2,700ybp. So yes R1b Df27 has been in Iberia for only 2,700 years at the most.

I think you are using the words "italo Celtic" to mean either or any of above. I'm not sure. If the Hallstatt Celts were Celts they were speaking Celtic not Italic. You can't have it both ways. Were Hallstatt folks Celts or not? I think they were Celts.

There is such a thing as pre-Celtic Western IE dialects/languages which would be on the Italo-Celtic branch of the IE language tree. Of course at this point we would be talking pre-Italic too.

R1b Df27 may be as old as R1b U152 or R1b L21 but maybe not at the most it is probably 3,500-4,000 years old. So it makes sense it came to Iberia from France 2,700ybp. R1b U152 migrated to Italy just 3,000-3,200ybp at the earliest and now it is 40% or more in Italians. The reason R1b Df27 spread so quickly and recently in Iberia is Conquest in wars the native Y DNA haplogroup lines are killed off and it is a quick process by 200 years most of Iberia was speaking a Celtic language.

My understanding is that the Iberians were fierce fighters and after a long struggle they essentially integrated, hence the Celtiberians. Is anyone saying the Iberians were totally killed off?

How do we know R1b-DF27 spread recently and quickly in Iberia. I agree with you that they came into Iberia from the continent, but how do we know that was Hallstatt or later? DF27 is at least a 1000 years older.

i dont know the P- Celtic stuff i dont think is a language family. click here it talks about all the Celtic languages. CeltIberian is in the continental Celtic family just like Gaulic. Also Insular Celtic is kind off special it did not migrate with hallstat and LA dene culture. So it came to Britain and Ireland well over 3,000ybp. Also it seems all other Celtic languages where conquered by Hallstatt and La dene Celtic languages.

P-Celtic can be a test for your proposals. I don't necessarily that conversions to "p" sounds happened in parallel both on the continent and in the Isles. Maybe so but don't forget that the Gaulish P-Celtic folks were right cross the channel from the Brythonic P-Celtic folks.

Back to Iberia. Iberian Celtic languages were like Celtic languages in Ireland and probably early Britain. They were archaic and did not include the "P-Celtic" innovations. Okay, now let's go over to nobodyknows recent post where he proposes that P-Celtic happened during the Urnfield timeframe which is before Hallstatt and in overlapping territorities. We know later Celtic speakers in the area, the Gauls, spoke P-Celtic. What about Hallstatt and La Tene?

Your proposal is that Hallstatt and some La Tene is what brought R1b and Celtic into Iberia for the first time.

How come the old IE languages in Iberia were archaic Q-Celtic and Italic-like, which would indicate the timeframe when Celtic and Italic were splitting? Where's the P-Celtic from Gaul?

 

[Mikewww]

Finding R1b in the Urnfield culture zone is not much of a sensation after Bell-Beaker Kromsdorf;
Depends however on the subclade;
Do you know what subclade?
[/I]

I agree, R1b in Urnfield is not a sensation but it is helpful to know.

I do not know the subclade of the Kromsdorf Bell-Beaker R1b. You can read the paper as well as I. My understanding from the follow-up is that the R1b was U106-, and that's all they can say. They could not say the P312 status which is too bad. Kromsdorf is not Southern Germany, though. It is in Thuringia.

Do you have any other information on it?

 

[Mikewww]

Its debunked;
All in all a good informative book; but Kochs Tartessian theory was debunked; its not an Indo-European language;
[/I]

I didn't know it was proven debunked. Who proved it debunked and how?

I take you are still assertive that there was no IE west of the Rhone before Roman times. How do you prove that?

Have you proven that Ligurian is non-Indo-European?

 

[Nobody1]

I didn't know it was proven debunked. Who proved it debunked and how?

Proceedings of the Harvard Celtic Colloquium: Vol. 29 / 2009
http://books.google.de/books?id=8Y2...nepage&q=tartessian non indo-european&f=false

Guess the language debunks itself for being (not) an Indo-European language;
There is written evidence and its not Indo-European;

I take you are still assertive that there was no IE west of the Rhone before Roman times. How do you prove that?

West ? of the Rhone ?

I do not know the subclade of the Kromsdorf Bell-Beaker R1b. You can read the paper as well as I. My understanding from the follow-up is that the R1b was U106-, and that's all they can say.

Whats U-106; Urnfield or Bell-Beaker ?

Do you have any other information on it?

No;
Can you post a link to that study; i only have Eulau;

Eulau / R1a - Corded Ware Culture
http://www.pnas.org/content/105/47/18226.long

Have you proven that Ligurian is non-Indo-European?