Fire Haired
Regular Member
- Messages
- 689
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- Ethnic group
- Celto-Germanic, Latino(~6%)
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- R1b Df27(Spain)
- mtDNA haplogroup
- U5b2a2(Prussia)
I1 M253 in Scandinavia is a offshoot of central European I1
From what i have seen I1 M253 in Scandinavia is majority I1a2 L22 and that I1a2 L22 is only in Scandinavia and areas were there is historical Scandinavian settlement. In the rest of Europe I1 M253 is I1a1 M227, I1a3 Z58, I1a4 Z63, and I1b Z131. It is by far mainly in central Europe the rest in non central Europe was probably spread by Germanic tribes. So I1 in central Europe is much more diverse than I1M253 in Scandinavia which is majority I1a2. If I1 M253 originated in Scandinavia wouldn't u except that they would have the most subclades. I1b Z131 is very very rare and from what i have read only found around the Netherlands and western Germany. All of Scandinavian I1a2 L22 brothers are in central Europe same with its cousin I1b Z131.
It seems that I1 in Scandinavia is just a offshoot of the original I1a Df29 of central Europe that is hwy they only have one subclade. People i think are just assuming I1 is unque to Scandinavia and it originated there. Just like people assumed R1b M343 was unque and original to western Europe.
I1 M253 was the first Y DNA haplogroup to settle Scandinavia and is Much older than predicted
I have heard crazy age estimates for I1 M253 as 4,000-5,000 years old in Denmark or whatever. When u look at how I1 M253 is spread out mainly in Scandinavia it does not represent any non cultures in archaeology in the last 10,000 years. Those age estimates are complete BS i don't know why I1 M253 is always predicted to be so young. Pretty much 100% of Scandnavia Y DNA is I1 M253, N1c M46, R1a M420, R1b M434, and I2a2 P214. There is about 1-10% G2a P15, E1b1b M215, and J2 M172 in far southern Scandinavia but those can easily be explained as contact with other Europeans or Neolithic farmers. R1b M343 and I2a2 P214 in Scandinavia are basically distributed the same way. They are centered in southern Norway and Sweden and only barely exist in western Finland. Just about all R1b M343 in Scandinavia fall under Germanic Italo Celtic R1b L11 which originated in central Europe about 5,000-4,500ybp while proto Germanic Italo Celtic speakers were migrating from eastern Europe. I2a2 P214 originated in central Europe too probably over 10,000ybp and almost defintley migrated with R1b, Germanic languages, and brought red hair to Scandinavia(since it is distrubted the same way as those haplogroups) with the Nordic bronze age culture 4,000-3,500ybp. So the R1b M343 and I2a2 P214 is easily explained. R1a M420 in Scandinavia is the brother clade of Balto Slavic R1a M420 and can easily be explained by Corded ware culture which had settlement in southern Scandinavia 5,000-4,000ybp and spoke proto Balto Slavic.
N1c M46 in Scandinavia is centered around Finland and Uralic speakers. It also perfectly matches the distributions of Kunda culture(8,000-6,000ybp) and Comb Cermaic culture (5,000-6,000ybp). Y DNA N period is originally mongliod and is very popular in northern Siberia it is estimated to have arrived in northeastern Europe including Finland from Siberia 10,000ybp. So N1c in Scandinavia is defintley from the spread of Uralic languages 10,000-6,000ybp.
I1 M253 though in Scandinavia is very spread out and popular everywhere. No matter if the people speak a Germanic or Uralic language. It does not match any culture in archaeology in Scandinavia in the last 10,000 years. We know the first human settlement in Scandinavia came about 11,000ybp we have very very old human remains in Scandinavia dating around 10,000ybp and their skull shapes were Caucasian. N1c M46 is a Mongliod haplogroup there has to be a native European Caucasian haplogroup of Scandinavia and the only possible one is I1 M253. There is no way I1 M253 spread in Scandinavia in any recent migration and if there was one it had to be pre Uralic over 8,000ybp which to me means it was the first Y DNA haplogroup in Scandinavia.
So what this mean's is Scandnavien I1a2 is probably around 9,000-11,000 years old. Also that I1 itself is much older than 4,000-5,000 years old since I1a2 has brothers and a cousin in central Europe. It would make sense I1 it self originated in central Europe i would guess 15,000-20,000ybp.
Custom made Migration map of I1 M253
I know this is sloppy i used MS paint. I dont know were but it seems I1 M253 ancestral form took refuge ins southern Europe it could have been in Spain i dont know. There is a good chance Y DNA I originated in Europe so that would also change my map a bit. But once u get to I1 M253 that is exactly how i think it migrated. The numbers on the side like 9-11 represent thousands of years so 9,000-11,000 years ago.
I know this is sloppy i used MS paint. I dont know were but it seems I1 M253 ancestral form took refuge ins southern Europe it could have been in Spain i dont know. There is a good chance Y DNA I originated in Europe so that would also change my map a bit. But once u get to I1 M253 that is exactly how i think it migrated. The numbers on the side like 9-11 represent thousands of years so 9,000-11,000 years ago.