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Thread: Haplogroup J2, Romans, Christianity and Viticulture

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    I guess that's the only explanation that makes sense to me. Although J2 in Greece as a whole is only 19%, I notice that it's 34% in Crete, which probably has a population that's closer to the DNA profile of pre migration period Greece than modern mainland Greece is. So, if Greece used to be higher in J2, all that colonization of the Italian peninsula for centuries would have resulted in a lot of J2 in Italy, and particularly in the most Greek colonized parts of Italy. But, as you suggested, the muslim invasions of southern Italy would have somewhat decreased the J2 in some of those areas of southern Italy that were previously heavily colonized by Greeks, reducing the J2 level in those areas as compared to other heavily Greek colonized parts of Italy. I guess it all fits.
    What muslim invasions are you talking about? Muslims barely left any Y-DNA beyond few spots here and there. Anyway most of J2 in Italy is non Greek. The dominant J2 subclade in Greece is almost completely absent in Italy, excluding for areas which were colonized by Greeks and Albanians (Eastern Sicily, Salento, Southern Calabria).


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    You can see that the percentages in some areas of the south are very similar to those of Crete, while others are similar to those of the Peleponessus. (In this regard, if I said somewhere that I think that the Moorish invasions left even enough y lineages to significantly change the distribution pattern in the south, then I was wrong, or at least not sufficiently precise. To the best of my recollection the specifically Berber lineages and the "Semitic" J1 lineages combined account for at most 4-6% of the total, even in Sicily, depending on the area.)
    If you are talking about this study, no semitic J1 linage were sampled at all. All J1 linages are counted as "moorish" although they most likely predated Moors, Greeks,... by thousands of years.

    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2008258a.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by joeyc View Post
    If you are talking about this study, no semitic J1 linage were sampled at all. All J1 linages are counted as "moorish" although they most likely predated Moors, Greeks,... by thousands of years.

    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2008258a.html

    You can take a look at the tables in the Supplementary Data section of Boattini et al, which divides the J1 in Italy into "J1e" and non J1e. One table also provides the strs. That one is by area.
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...e.0065441.s012

    I agree that the presence of J1 in Italy has been misinterpreted. The vast majority of it is, from more recent data, Neolithic era. The erroneous conclusions were partly based, imo, on very glib interpretations of Italian history, as well as the fact that J1 was treated as a monolithic clade. It wasn't until it was more resolved that it became clear that there is extremely little "Semitic" ydna J1 in Italy.

    That, of course, means that interpretations of the extent of Moorish genetic influence in Italy must be re-examined, as it would imply that it has either been vastly over estimated, or there were very few Arabs involved and it was mostly a Berber phenomenon.

    Given that the levels of E-M81 (the so called "Berber" clade) in southern Italy are in the low single digits, my personal take away is that the Moorish influence has been over-estimated, and that what influence there was stemmed mainly from Berber settlement drawn from the coastal areas, although there was, according to historical analysis, an elite "Arabic" layer, which from the almost non-existent traces remaining, must have been very small, and/or went into exile. If you're interested in the history of Sicily, or southern Italy in general in terms of the Moorish conquests, I highly recommend the book, A History of Muslim Sicily, by Leonard C. Chiarelli, 2011. It's very long, but it is groundbreaking in its analysis.

    Btw, I don't make any claims about how many of them actually settled in Sicily, in particular, because the historical evidence is extremely sketchy. It may be that they came in rather substantial numbers but that most of them were indeed expelled.

    As to your comment to Aberdeen about J2, I would point out that J2b is not the only J2 y lineage. Grugni et al 2012 Figure 2 shows, in the first column, the distribution of a J1 clade as well as various J2 clades. (The second column shows variance)
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...e-0041252-g002

    As to the topic of J2 in Italy generally, I think, as I speculated above (which is all any of us are doing) that some of it may indeed have a late Neolithic source from the Balkans, including Greece, and from Crete, or at least that wouldn't surprise me, but I would find it extraordinary if all of the Metal Ages movements from Crete, the other islands, and Greece proper into the mainland and Sicily did not impact those levels significantly, and that doesn't even take into account any possible, and I emphasize possible movement involved in the formation of the Etruscan culture in the Bronze Age by migrants from Anatolia or the eastern Aegean directly into Tuscany, should that ever be proven. (Although interestingly enough, Tuscany itself, based on the Boattini2 data as well as the composite data put together by Maciamo, is rather low in J2 compared to other areas.) Then there are inputs from Greek maritime trading on the coasts of Liguria and Venezia, and possible Byzantine era influences to be considered, although their input may have been extremely minor. There are also the population movements engineered by the Romans through the creation of veterans colonies in the north, which may have spread the J2 into those areas.
    ,
    Therefore, as I said above, I think J2 frequency in Italy today is probably the result of numerous different layers of migration from the direction of the southeast, some perhaps from the late Neolithic, and some, perhaps more, which took place during the Metal Ages, a flow which also spread from the northern Mediterranean coastline into France and Iberia. Those Grugni graphics are pretty informative in that regard.

    It's a mistake in my view to look at even J2a as a monolithic clade. Different sub-groups were, in my opinion, doubtlessly brought or spread at different times.

    Only ancient dna will bring us closer to the answers. Modern distributions provide only hints, and are very difficult to interpret in any precise way.


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    Personally I fail to see how those haplogroups can be connected with Moorish settlements in mainland Italy.

    Eupedia map of Y-Haplogroup E-M81.



    Eupedia map of Y-Haplogroup J1.



    Frequency of Y-chromosome haplogroup J1e from Boattini et al. Table S1.

    Area I = 0.6%
    Area II = 0%
    Area III = 6.9%
    Area IV = 1.6%
    Area V = 1.3%
    Area VI = 1.5%
    Area VII = 4.3%
    Area VIII = 2.4%



    Also Albania/Greece and Southern Italy/Sicily have similar frequencies for the J2 haplogroup, but they mostly belong to 2 different subclades (J2b in the Balkans and J2a in Italy).


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    Note! : Eupedia forum rule nr. 4. STAY ON TOPIC

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    Topic = Haplogroup J2, Romans, Christianity and Viticulture. (And the relationship between them.)

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    Haplogroup J2, Romans, Christianity and Viticulture. (Italic Tribes)


    Haplogroup J2 - Roman Republic.

    "Romans surely helped spread haplogroup J2 across its borders, judging from the distribution of J2 within Europe (frequency over 5%) wich bears an uncanny resemblance to the borders of the Roman Empire."
    Eupedia.com, 2013.
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml



    "Wine making spread to Crete during the Minoan period and then later to Italy with the Etruscans and to Iberia with the Phoenicians. It was an integral component of the economy and social culture of the proto-greek civilizations and the phoenicians who both went on to settle other mediterranean coastal regions. And tracing the spread of Viticulture from its origins to its spread before the Roman period, we can see te highest levels of Haplogroup J2 today correlate with the geographical centres of all these civilizations. While viticulture may not represent the first wave of M172 migrants to Europe, M172 certainly played a strong role in bringing Viticulture to Europe with such civilizations as the Minoans, Greeks and Phoenicians."
    M172 Blog - Correlations in the spread of Viticulture and Haplogroup J2, 2008.
    http://m172.blogspot.nl/2008/10/corr...ticulture.html

    Latini, Piceni, Grecani.

    Latini 22.8%, Piceni 36.9%, Grecani Sal. 25.5% J2.



    "The Latins (Latin: Latini) were an Italic tribe which included the early inhabitants of the city of Rome. From about 1000 BC, the Latins inhabited the small region known to the Romans as Old Latium (Latium Vetus), that is, the area between the river Tiber and the promontory of Mount Circeo 100 kilometres (62 mi) SE of Rome. The Latins were an Indo-European people who probably migrated into the Italian peninsula during the late Bronze Age (1200–900 BC). ... The Latins belonged to a group of Indo-European ("IE") tribes, conventionally known as the Italic tribes, that populated central and southern Italy during the Italian Iron Age (which began around 900 BC). The most common hypothesis is that the Italic peoples migrated into the Italian peninsula some time during the Italian Bronze Age (1800–900 BC). The most likely migration route was from the Balkan peninsula along the Adriatic coast"
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latins_(Italic_tribe)

    "The Picentes or Picentini (Ancient Greek: Πίκεντες, Πικεντῖνοι) were an Italic tribe who lived in Picenum in the northern Adriatic coastal plain of ancient Italy. The endonym, if any, and its language are not known for certain."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picentes

    "Grecani Salentini is a Hellenic-speaking linguistic island of Salento, situated in southern Puglia, and consisting of nine municipalities in which a neo-Greek dialect, also known as Grecanic or Griko, is spoken. The origins of this linguistic island in Salentine Greece are uncertain. The German linguist G. Rohlfs proposed its origin in the Magna Graecia region; while O. Parlangeli suggests a Byzantine derivation of the Griki of Salento. Greek researchers (e.g. A. Karanastasis) claim the input of Byzantine elements in the pre-existing Magna Graecia matrix. The Greek arrival in the Salentine Peninsula occurred both in the Magna Graecia, and posterior Byzantine dominations."
    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0050794


    Uniparental Markers of Contemporary Italian Population Reveals Details on Its Pre-Roman Heritage.http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0050794

    "Gascony, at the opposite end of France, has unsurprisingly the lowest percentage of haplogroups associated with Greco-Danubian Neolithic farmers. Only J2 is present in relatively high number there, and the near absence of E, G and T suggest an early colonization from southern Greece (Crete?), or possibly by Romans from Central Italy."
    Eupedia.com - Ancient Ancestry Project: Benelux & France.
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/benelu..._project.shtml


    Source: Tipologie europidi ©

    "Under the ever-growing influence of the Italiote Greeks, the Romans acquired their own national origin-legend sometime during the early Republican era (500-300 BC). It was centred around the figure of Aeneas, a supposed Trojan survivor of the destruction of Troy by the Achaean Greeks, as related in the poet Homer's epic the Iliad (composed c. 800 BC)."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latins_(Italic_tribe)

    Quote Originally Posted by RHAS View Post


    "An earlier tradition that gave Romulus a distant ancestor in the semi-divine Trojan prince Aeneas was further embellished, and Romulus was made the direct ancestor of Rome's first Imperial dynasty. Possible historical bases for the broad mythological narrative remain unclear and disputed. The image of the she-wolf suckling the divinely fathered twins became an iconic representation of the city and its founding legend, making Romulus and Remus preeminent among the feral children of ancient mythography."
    Romulus and Remus.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romulus_and_Remus


    Aeneas Flight from Troy by Federico Barocci.

    "In Greco-Roman mythology, Aeneas (/ɪˈniːəs/; Greek: Αἰνείας, Aineías, possibly derived from Greek αἰνή meaning "praise") was a Trojan hero, the son of the prince Anchises and the goddess Aphrodite. His father was the second cousin of King Priam of Troy, making Aeneas Priam's second cousin, once removed. He is a character in Greek mythology and is mentioned in Homer's Iliad, and receives full treatment in Roman mythology as the legendary founder of what would become Ancient Rome, most extensively in Virgil's Aeneid."
    Aeneas.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeneas


    Map Aeneae Troiani Navigatio


    Travels of Aeneas.

    "J2a-M92 is a well-defined J2a-M67 sub-lineage, with a distribution restricted to Asia Minor, the Balkans and the north-eastern Mediterranean coasts. Frequency and variance maps make plausible an origin in north-western Turkey, where the highest variance is registered, and a subsequent migration to the Balkans and then to the Italian Peninsula."
    Ancient Migratory Events in the Middle East: New Clues from the Y-Chromosome Variation of Modern Iranians.
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...e-0041252-g002
    Last edited by RHAS; 23-05-15 at 12:48.

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    Sorry, but this map is pathetic. First of all these haplogroups could be called Mesolithic or even Paleolithic. Secondly, Mesolithic is a time period, Mediterranei is a geographical location, and Indoeuropei is a cultural aspect. These shouldn't have been mixed together to represent population genetics.
    The funniest thing is that just 2 samples from Sardinia makes it totally "Mesolithic", though we know by now that Sardinians are most Neolithic farmers like, therefore most "Mediterranei". I'm surprised that a person like you, with years of experiance around this subject, posts ridiculous map like this one. You should know better by now.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    J2b and J2a1 Found in Roman Villa and Merovingian Graves Research.

    "In addition, we attempted to characterize the Y haplogroupfor all (possible) male individuals, including the previous study. This was only possible for individuals 15 and 20, for who haplogroup J2 could be granted. With our method J2 can not be further subdivided. For individual 15 haplogroup J2a1 is predicted in the previous investigation on the basis of the Y-STR profile. Meanwhile, it can be refined to J2a1b (99% probability). For individual 20, based on the Y-STRprofiel haplogroup J2b is predicted (100% probability). In both cases the predicted haplogroups confirm typed haplogroups. Y-haplogroup J2 is carried by 2.7% of Dutch men and is relatively rare in the Netherlands."
    Cultureel Erfgoed - Merovingers in een Villa 2.
    http://cultureelerfgoed.nl/publicati...in-een-villa-2


    http://cultureelerfgoed.nl/publicati...in-een-villa-2


    http://cultureelerfgoed.nl/publicati...in-een-villa-2

    Clues to their origins are the artifacts found in the graves. (late Roman early Merovngian pottery, Venus Aphrodite hangers, Avar like horse equipment that seems to be found in europe along the Danube and Rhine, allot of weaponry, Roman/Byzantine glass beads comparable tomodern day turkish ones, seashells from the mediteranean, red sea and indian ocean used for Apotropaeon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apotropaic_magic) The paper also mentiones one site at Daalderveld and the one at Pasestraat. The first one seems to be a site for foreigner and the latter one seems to be a site for locals. The J2`s are found in the local area. The paper mentiones that these people including individual 15 (j2a1b) come from an area geographically similar to Southern Limburg and that ultimatly their familyline may go back to outide europe. But at the time they were consdered locals. They also mention that these people were from areas in the Netherlands know as "dekzand gebieden". They also found non local horse remains who were given a warriors grave/ending with a sword stab throgh the hearth. The earliest found artifact from the site rare from 3400 B.C to 2500 B.C, on top of that a Roman Villa was build, in the rubblefield of the Roman Villa the grave field was created. (5th-6th A.D). There is evidence that the site was continualy inhabited from the Roman Villa era to the grave field construction. After the Merovingian period in the Karolingian period they stopped using the site.

    The researchers state that the positioning of the burial field right on the main building of the Roman complex is meaningfull, for instance to make a claim of ownership on the land (considered to be from their ancestors) through a claim of ancestry of the previous inhabitants. (in this case romans) The villa was probably build in/around the 2nd century AD. it probably belonged to the Vicus of Maastricht (Mosa ad Trajectum)

    More here: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...he-Netherlands


    Mosa ad Trajectum

    The Roman Research Project of Leuven University reported last month;

    "De allerhoogste genetische diversiteit vonden de onderzoekers in Tongeren. En dat heeft toch met Romeinse roots te maken, zij het meer praktisch: “Dankzij de goede wegen, de Romeinse heirbanen, had Tongeren veel contact met het Rijnland, Maastricht en Keulen.”"

    "The highest genetic diversity the researchers found was situated in Tongeren. And that has to do with the Roman Roots, the reason is practical: "Thanks to the good roads, the roman via`s, Tongeren had allot of contact with the Rhineland, Maastricht and Koln."

    Catholic University Leuven.
    http://nieuws.kuleuven.be/node/14793...n=CKFeb-alumni


    J2b2 Geno 2.0 Heatmap Comparison with Roman Settlements and Roads.

    More here: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...no-2-0-Heatmap

    "J2b2a-L283 was discovered by Family Tree DNA through its "Walk Through The Y" program, and is predominantly Middle-Eastern, Mediterranean and European. The M12/M241 frequency peak in the Balkan Peninsula and Italy observed by Semino et al. [35] and Cruciani et al. [45], may instead belong to sub-clade L283. A recent Z631 sub-branch expansion from east to west through the heart of Europe to the UK along with presence in Italy and Spain might be associated with Roman expansion using mercenaries and slaves acquired in the Balkans."
    Generation of high-resolution a priori Y-chromosome phylogenies using "next-generation" sequencing data.
    http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/e...802.1.full.pdf



    "Romans surely helped spread haplogroup J2 across its borders, judging from the distribution of J2 within Europe (frequency over 5%) wich bears an uncanny resemblance to the borders of the Roman Empire."
    Eupedia.com, 2013.
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml

    Quote Originally Posted by RHAS View Post

    Aeneas Flight from Troy by Federico Barocci.

    "In Greco-Roman mythology, Aeneas (/ɪˈniːəs/; Greek: Αἰνείας, Aineías, possibly derived from Greek αἰνή meaning "praise") was a Trojan hero, the son of the prince Anchises and the goddess Aphrodite. His father was the second cousin of King Priam of Troy, making Aeneas Priam's second cousin, once removed. He is a character in Greek mythology and is mentioned in Homer's Iliad, and receives full treatment in Roman mythology as the legendary founder of what would become Ancient Rome, most extensively in Virgil's Aeneid."
    Aeneas.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeneas
    "The Frankish mythology that has survived in primary sources is comparable to that of the Aeneas and Romulus myths take in Roman mythology, but altered to suit Germanic tastes. Like many Germanic peoples, the Franks told a founding myth story to explain their connection with peoples of classical history. In the case of the Franks, these peoples were the Sicambri and the Trojans. An anonymous work of 727 called Liber Historiae Francorum states that following the fall of Troy, 12,000 Trojans led by chiefs Priam and Antenor moved to the Tanais (Don) river, settled in Pannonia near the Sea of Azov and founded a city called "Sicambria". In just two generations (Priam and his son Marcomer) from the fall of Troy (by modern scholars dated in the late Bronze Age) they arrive in the late 4th century AD at the Rhine. An earlier variation of this story can be read in Fredegar. In Fredegar's version an early king named Francio serves as namegiver for the Francs, just as Romulus has lent his name to Rome. .............. In contrast to many other Germanic tribes, no Merovingians claimed to be descended from Wodan. Instead, the sacred tradition of a cart pulled by bulls seems to be present from the early Merovingians on. The bulls that pulled the cart were taken as special animals, and according to Salian law the theft of those animals would impose a high sanction. In the grave of Childeric I (died 481) was found the head of a bull, craftily made out of gold.""
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankish_mythology

    "There is a distinct association of ancient J2 civilisations with bull worship."
    Eupedia.com, 2013.
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml



    "The Quinotaur (Lat. Quinotaurus) is a mythical sea creature mentioned in the 7th century Frankish Chronicle of Fredegar. Referred to as "bestea Neptuni Quinotauri similis", (the beast of Neptune which resembles a Quinotaur) it was held to have fathered Meroveus by attacking the wife of the Frankish king Chlodio and thus to have sired the line of Merovingian kings. The name translates from Latin as "bull with five horns", whose attributes have commonly been interpreted as the incorporated symbols of the sea god Neptune with his trident, and the horns of a mythical bull or Minotaur. The suggested rape and subsequent family relation of this monster attributed to Frankish mythology correspond to both the Indo-European etymology of Neptune (from PIE '*nepots', "grandson" or "nephew", compare also the Indo-Aryan 'Apam Napat', "grandson/nephew of the water") and to bull-related fertility myths in Greek mythology, where for example the Phoenician princess Europa was abducted by the god Zeus, in the form of a white bull, that swam her to Crete."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinotaur

    Quote Originally Posted by RHAS View Post
    Zeus and Europa

    "In Greek mythology Europa (Greek Ευρώπη Eurṓpē) was a Phoenician woman of high lineage, from whom the name of the continent Europe has ultimately been taken. The story of her abduction by Zeus in the form of a white bull was a Cretan story; as Kerényi points out "most of the love-stories concerning Zeus originated from more ancient tales describing his marriages with goddesses. This can especially be said of the story of Europa".
    Europa (Mythology)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_(mythology)

    Trojan Origin Myth.


    "The Frankish mythology that has survived in primary sources is comparable to that of the Aeneas and Romulus myths take in Roman mythology, but altered to suit Germanic tastes. Like many Germanic peoples, the Franks told a founding myth story to explain their connection with peoples of classical history. In the case of the Franks, these peoples were the Sicambri and the Trojans. An anonymous work of 727 called Liber Historiae Francorum states that following the fall of Troy, 12,000 Trojans led by chiefs Priam and Antenor moved to the Tanais (Don) river, settled in Pannonia near the Sea of Azov and founded a city called "Sicambria". In just two generations (Priam and his son Marcomer) from the fall of Troy (by modern scholars dated in the late Bronze Age) they arrive in the late 4th century AD at the Rhine. An earlier variation of this story can be read in Fredegar. In Fredegar's version an early king named Francio serves as namegiver for the Francs, just as Romulus has lent his name to Rome."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankish_mythology

    "Der niederrheinische Trojamythos schließt an die Schilderung Homers vom Ende des Trojanischen Krieges an. Das besagt, dass die von den Griechen besiegten Trojaner fliehen, und in mehreren Gruppen über Asien und Europa versprengt werden. Hier gründen sie neue Städte und werden zu Stammvätern neuer, ruhmreicher Völker. Die bis heute existente niederrheinische Variante des Trojamythos indes spiegelt die Gründungssage des Frankenreichs, die Origio francorum wider. Als Vorbild diente der römische Trojamythos, wie er in Vergils Aeneis überliefert ist."
    http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niederr...er_Trojamythos

    http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asciburgium

    "The two earliest sources that describe the origin of the Franks are a 7th-century work known as the Chronicle of Fredegar and the anonymous Liber Historiae Francorum, written a century later. Neither of these works are accepted by historians as trustworthy, compared with Gregory of Tours's Historia Francorum, which was written in the 6th century. The author of the Chronicle of Fredegar claimed that the Franks came originally from Troy and quoted the works of Vergil and Hieronymous, but the Franks are not mentioned in those works, except in a general way by Hieronymous.[14] The chronicle describes Priam as a Frankish king whose people migrated to Macedonia after the fall of Troy. In Macedonia, the Franks then divided. The European Franks reached Francia under King Francio, just as Romulus went to Rome. Another branch, under King Turchot, became the Turks. Fredegar stated that Theudemer, named king of the Franks by Gregory, was descended from Priam, Friga and Francio. Another work, the Gesta, is nowadays acknowledged by serious scholars as a fantasy. Its author described how 12,000 Trojans, led by Priam and Antenor, sailed from Troy to the River Don in Russia and—with a total disregard of geography—to Pannonia, which is on the Danube, settling near the Sea of Azov. There they founded a city called Sicambria. The Trojans joined the Roman army in accomplishing the task of driving their enemies into the marshes of Mæotis, for which they received the name of Franks (meaning "savage"). A decade later the Romans killed Priam and drove away Marcomer and Sunno, the sons of Priam and Antenor, and the other Franks."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks

    "An anonymous work of 727 called Liber Historiae Francorum states that following the fall of Troy, 12,000 Trojans led by chiefs Priam and Antenor moved to the Tanais (Don) river, settled in Pannonia near the Sea of Azov and founded a city called Sicambria. In just 2 generations from the fall of Troy (by modern scholars dated in the late Bronze Age 1550-1200 BC) they arrived in the late 4th century AD at the Rhine. A variation of this story can also be read in Fredegar, and similar tales continue to crop up repeatedly throughout obscure, mediaeval-era European literature. ... In Roman and Merovingian times, it was a custom to declare panegyrics. These poetic declarations were held for fun or propaganda to entertain guests and please rulers. Those panegyrics played an important role in the transmission of culture. One of the ritual customs of these poetic declarations is the use of archaic names for contemporary things. Romans were often called Trojans, and Salian Franks were called Sicambri."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicambri

    Quote Originally Posted by RHAS View Post
    "The J2f-M67 clade is localized to Northwest Turkey. It is well known that during this period, Northwest Anatolia developed a complex society that engaged in widespread Aegean trade referred to as "Maritime Troia culture," involving both the western Anatolian mainland and several of the large islands in the eastern Aegean, Chios, Lemnos and Lesbos (Korfmann 1996)."
    Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata in Anatolia.
    http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Cinnioglu2004.pdf

    "2.1. The Maritime Troy Culture.The coastline of the North Aegean and the costal regions of the Marmara Sea were determined as the area of distribution of the “Maritime Troy Culture”, which encompasses the first three settlement phases of Troy from c. 2920 to 2200 BC (KORFMANN 2006:4). In more general terms this is the period of the Early Bronze Age (EBA)"
    http://tobias-lib.uni-tuebingen.de/v...ss_Guendem.pdf

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Two J2a and one J2b in Limburg. There is a much higher chance that these are Roman rather than Frankish.
    Last edited by RHAS; 17-05-15 at 18:05.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RHAS View Post
    J2b and J2a1 Found Roman Villa and Merovingian Graves.
    I know why! Because it was a Roman villa and obviously there was a Roman vineyard too. As you know Roman J2 guys planted this vineyard thousand of years before, lived there and died there. It is so obvious that whoever is found there by this Roman Villa must be J2. It makes so much sense!

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    Quote Originally Posted by RHAS View Post




    The bottom map is wrong, the alps where not conquered by the Romans until 15BC ..................Gaul was conquered and Britain invaded before the Romans entered the Alps.

    Middle Illyrian was not taken until 9BC , another error

    who gives you these maps?
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    The bottom map is wrong, the alps where not conquered by the Romans until 15BC ..................Gaul was conquered and Britain invaded before the Romans entered the Alps.

    Middle Illyrian was not taken until 9BC , another error

    who gives you these maps?
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RHAS View Post
    Greco-Roman spheres of influence and Haplogroup J2.


    Left: The geographic space over which Classical Greek and Latin served as a lingua franca in antiquity. Right: Y-DNA Haplogroup Frequency map of J2-M172.

    "Romans surely helped spread haplogroup J2 across its borders, judging from the distribution of J2 within Europe (frequency over 5%) wich bears an uncanny resemblance to the borders of the Roman Empire."
    Eupedia.com, 2013.

    "The propagation of J2b and E V-13 correspond roughly to the ancient Greek and Roman spheres of influence."
    Eupedia.com, 2013.

    "The ancient Greeks and Phoenicians were the main driving forces behind the spread of J2 around the western and southern Mediterranian"
    Eupedia.com, 2013.

    "Di Giacomo stressed the role of post-Neolithic migratory phenomenon, specifically that of the Ancient Greeks, as also being important in the dispersal of haplogroup J-M172."

    Wikipedia.org - Haplogroup J2-M172, 2013.
    can you check your language map as I want to know what about greek influence in pontic black sea area ( eastern side) and the italian south?
    Quote Originally Posted by RHAS View Post
    This map actually came from a website called, Center of Hellenic Studies from Harvard University.
    It was featured in an article with the name, Greek, Latin and a Global Dialogue among Civilizations.
    http://chs.harvard.edu/wa/pageR?tn=A...bdc=12&mn=4827
    More Roman Republic here: https://www.google.nl/search?q=expan...w=1366&bih=623



    "Romans surely helped spread haplogroup J2 across its borders, judging from the distribution of J2 within Europe (frequency over 5%) wich bears an uncanny resemblance to the borders of the Roman Empire."
    Eupedia.com, 2013.
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by RHAS; 17-05-15 at 08:33.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RHAS View Post
    tell them to go to school again.........Augustus did not conquer the 45 alpine tribes until 15 BC

    They are putting out a propoganda map, hoping people will believe the following maps for the area they produce .....OR they are TOO lazy to investigate what tribes where in the alps while the Romans where to the south

    either way, they are idiots

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    Quote Originally Posted by RHAS View Post
    Greco-Roman spheres of influence and Haplogroup J2.


    Left: The geographic space over which Classical Greek and Latin served as a lingua franca in antiquity. Right: Y-DNA Haplogroup Frequency map of J2-M172.

    "Romans surely helped spread haplogroup J2 across its borders, judging from the distribution of J2 within Europe (frequency over 5%) wich bears an uncanny resemblance to the borders of the Roman Empire."
    Eupedia.com, 2013.

    "The propagation of J2b and E V-13 correspond roughly to the ancient Greek and Roman spheres of influence."
    Eupedia.com, 2013.

    "The ancient Greeks and Phoenicians were the main driving forces behind the spread of J2 around the western and southern Mediterranian"
    Eupedia.com, 2013.

    "Di Giacomo stressed the role of post-Neolithic migratory phenomenon, specifically that of the Ancient Greeks, as also being important in the dispersal of haplogroup J-M172."
    Wikipedia.org - Haplogroup J2-M172, 2013.


    Source: Massachusetts Institute of Technology - MIT.edu ©

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    Quote Originally Posted by RHAS View Post
    More Roman Republic here: https://www.google.nl/search?q=expan...w=1366&bih=623



    "Romans surely helped spread haplogroup J2 across its borders, judging from the distribution of J2 within Europe (frequency over 5%) wich bears an uncanny resemblance to the borders of the Roman Empire."
    Eupedia.com, 2013.
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml
    It seems, but perhaps only seems. We need to explain why Italo-Celtic Y DNA failed to spread around Roman Empire, the way J2 did, supposedly.

    Last edited by LeBrok; 17-05-15 at 21:43.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.








    Last edited by RHAS; 30-06-15 at 02:38.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Could you explain why Roman Empire was so great spreading J2 but faild to spread Celto-Iralic hgs? I din't catch you the first time...

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    ROFL that map. Iberia is rich in Vasconic DF27, which is almost non existent north of the Spain. Maciamo and its theories is very funny.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vukodav View Post
    ROFL that map. Iberia is rich in Vasconic DF27, which is almost non existent north of the Spain. Maciamo and its theories is very funny.
    The map is based on scientific data.

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    1 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    J2's in Italy arrived a long time after the founding of the Roman Empire. Before the Punic Wars the Romans weren't great sailors.

    The Italian peninsula was attracted a lot of people from all over the Empire. The Romans had civil wars once in a while and the Romans would Latinize non-Etruscan/non-Italian people.

    The Christianization of Rome could have attracted Christian converts to the Middle East and North Africa to Rome.

    There was also Hannibal and Roman relations with Carthiginians. Romans did absorb Carthage and vast parts of the middle east. Carthage was very important, specially in the Christian era. The Carthiginians were descendants of Phoenicians, in modern day Lebanon. This is where some J2s in Italy may come from, ancient sailors who went back and forth from North Africa to Italy.

    After the Romans conquered Carthage, they probably didn't let those experienced North African J2 sailors go to waste and absorbed them into the merchant fleets and navy.

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    "Here we report nine ancient genomes (~1 ×) of individuals from northern Britain: seven from a Roman era York cemetery, bookended by earlier Iron-Age and later Anglo-Saxon burials. ... Strikingly, one Roman skeleton shows a clear signal of exogenous origin, with affinities pointing towards the Middle East, confirming the cosmopolitan character of the Empire, even at its northernmost fringes. ... Sample 3DRIF-26, on the other hand, despite belonging to the same burial context, presented a lineage consistent with haplogroup J2-L228, which has a modern distribution centred on the Middle East, but which is also present in the Caucasus region, the Balkans and Italy."
    Genomic signals of migration and continuity in Britain before the Anglo-Saxons.
    http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2016/16...omms10326.html

    "Sample 3DRIF26 is clearly an exception, both in terms of autosomal variation as in the Ychromosome lineage it presents (J2), common in the Middle East, Caucasus, Balkans and Italy and attributed to neolithic demic migrations or to seafaring Phoenicians."
    Genomic signals of migration and continuity in Britain before the Anglo-Saxons - Supplementary Figures.
    http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2016/16...ms10326-s1.pdf

    "The fact that multiple isotopic proxies (Sr, O, C, N) for 3DRIF26 appear consistent with the same general area, Lower Egypt, should not be misunderstood as a secure assignation of origin, however, especially given that reference values used are not from the Roman period and comparative data from other regions (such as arid parts of the Levant or Eastern Syria) that would provide a good fit on theoretical grounds, are not currently available. The similarities should therefore rather be taken as evidence for the kind of environment in which 3DRIF26 spent his childhood than as a positive identification of the area of origin."
    Genomic signals of migration and continuity in Britain before the Anglo-Saxons - Supplementary Figures.
    http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2016/16...ms10326-s1.pdf

    "Scientists reveal that headless men believed to be gladiators have descendants in Wales – and one hailed from Middle East"
    http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2...ome-technology

    "The savagery of gladiatorial battles was depicted as Channel 4 investigated the discovery of 80 skeletons at a York archaeological dig. As reported in The Press, the 80 skeletons, the majority of large, powerfully-built men dating from Roman times, were found at a dig in Driffield Terrace, Holgate."
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-LpbKyhBC4



    Full documentary: http://watchdocumentary.org/watch/gl...13d4008d0.html


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    "The lineage defined by rs779180992, belonging to J2b-M205, and dated at 4–4.5 kya, has a radically different distribution, with derived alleles in Continental Italy, Greece and Northern Turkey, and two instances in a Palestinian and a Jew. The interpretation of the spread of this lineage is not straightforward. Tentative hypotheses are linked to Southward movements that occurred in the Balkan Peninsula from the Bronze Age, through the Roman occupation and later."
    A finely resolved phylogeny of Y chromosome Hg J illuminates the processes of Phoenician and Greek colonizations in the Mediterranean
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-25912-9

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