I2a-Din came to the Balkans and Dinaric Alps with the Thracians, Dacians & Illyrians

[strahor27]

Wouldn't be surprised if they did it on purpose xD

Nah, I wouldn't go that far. There's an interesting study on the Bezdanjača cave locality ("Zagonetke prošlosti - nalazi iz pećine Bezdanjače kod Vrhovina / the mysteries of the past - finds from the Bezdnjača cave near Vrhovine" by Ivor Janković and Mario Novak) from which the samples were taken that might shed some light as to what's going on (my second post ever so I can't post links, but the study is easily accessible online)

"Surprisingly, the third skull, which exhibits signs of violence, belonged to a person who came to Bezdanjača much later – in the 17th century. Although archaeological material suggests that most of the material from Bezdanjača can be attributed to the Bronze Age, the presence of remains from later periods suggests that the analysis of human skeletal material should be approached with caution. Malinar mentions information about the find of two human skeletons that most likely ended up in Bezdanjača during World War II, as well as skeletal remains of animals that accidentally fell in."

(page number 72)

 

[Neo-Bulwark]

at Szigmund
He's referring to Haplogroup I-L161>S2639 a pre-indo european haplgroup brought to britain by neolithic farmers and a relative to L621 by their common ancestor Y3104. There are S2639 remains in neolithic scotland but I'm not aware of any specifically pictish remains belonging to S2639.

 

[Szigmund]

Thank you, Neo-Bulwark!

 

[Nicu]

Yeah I believe that most of I2a is of Paleo-Balkan Thraco-Daco-Illyrian origin, although those peoples also spread north to an extent in antiquity (as far as western/southern Ukraine possibly), so some of the Slavs that migrated south eventually may have absorbed some of those people in the mountainous northern Carpathian region before going to the Balkans. It's probably more complicated than the simplistic cut-and-dry explanations people give. Tribes and peoples are not homogenous units that just cleanly move from one place to another. Migrations are often piecemeal and involve assimilation, acculturation, and are a gradual process.

Another reason why I think I2a is more of the native Balkan-Danubian origin is that it is even found in Iberia to some small extent, likely brought there by the Visigoths, and some Spaniards have this in common with South Slav and Balkan folks. Keep in mind that the Goths settled in what is now the Romania and northern Balkan area in starting in the mid to late 3rd century for like at least a century before some of them moved further west into the Roman empire as foederati, and likely mixed into the populations (by the time they reached western Europe, they weren't purely Germanic at all). But this was before the Slavs moved south in the 6th century, so they would've had to have gotten it from the more "native" elements. But you don't see the northern Slavic haplogroups in Iberia, which makes sense if you look at history.

 

[Hawk]

So, so far from what we can gather is that Illyrians were mostly J2b2-L283, R1b and probably some I2a2-M223 while Daco-Thracians were exclusively E-V13 with this Y-DNA being a minority among La Tene Hallstatt Celts as well.

 

[torzio]

So, so far from what we can gather is that Illyrians were mostly J2b2-L283, R1b and probably some I2a2-M223 while Daco-Thracians were exclusively E-V13 with this Y-DNA being a minority among La Tene Hallstatt Celts as well.

someone needs to clarify what is a La Tene ( switzerland ) and Halstatt ( east Austria ) Celt is ....because there is a gap of 500 years between the 2 .................500 years is roughly , more than 120 generations...............the gap is far too large to suggest they are the same people.
Only if the Glauberg ( near frankfurt germany ) celtic site has some links to the 2 ( la tene and Halstatt ) sites, will it make any sense or reason

 

[Excine]

So, so far from what we can gather is that Illyrians were mostly J2b2-L283, R1b and probably some I2a2-M223 while Daco-Thracians were exclusively E-V13 with this Y-DNA being a minority among La Tene Hallstatt Celts as well.

We literally have 0 samples which have been published from Dacian and Thracians sites and you have decided not only that they were majority E-V13 but that they were exclusively E-V13. This by definition is false since E-V13 isn't even PIE, so how exactly were Daco-Thracians, an IE people, 0% R1b? Why don't you just wait for upcoming studies to answer certain questions?

In La Tene Hungary there are 2 E-V13 and 1 J-L283. That doesn't make E-V13 and J-L283 a "minority among La Tene Celts", it makes them migrants to the region like the close relation between one of the E-V13 and the J-L283 show.

 

[Hawk]

We literally have 0 samples which have been published from Dacian and Thracians sites and you have decided not only that they were majority E-V13 but that they were exclusively E-V13. This by definition is false since E-V13 isn't even PIE, so how exactly were Daco-Thracians, an IE people, 0% R1b? Why don't you just wait for upcoming studies to answer certain questions?

Yes, that's already certain, Geto-Dacians and Thracians were primarily E-V13 carriers. It's yet to be seen if classical Greeks (expected Danubian/East Urnfielder heavy influence during Late Bronze Age to Early Iron Age transition) carried as well, and Southern Illyrians.

From PIE(Late Chalcolithic) to Late Bronze Age/Early Iron Age is quite a lot of time, one E-V13 tribe after adopting an IE speech without even having male influence could very likely have a boom from Middle Bronze Age to Early Iron Age. Quite simple actually.

Psenicevo-Babadag Early Iron Age to Classical Thracian samples are all E-V13 based on leaks, couple of years old downstream unspecified E-M215 lineage is from Svilengrad, likely Thracian Iron Age, the Eastern Urnfielders used ritual pits as secondary burials, they were part of larger channels involving Central Balkans Mediana, Paracin groups, and greater Gava groups (whom according to Garasanin were possible candidates for the groups who attacked and burned Mycenae).

Viminacium paper states the same for E-V13, Late to Early Iron Age expansion and it specifically states that local people cremated their dead.

In La Tene Hungary there are 2 E-V13 and 1 J-L283. That doesn't make E-V13 and J-L283 a "minority among La Tene Celts", it makes them migrants to the region like the close relation between one of the E-V13 and the J-L283 show.

Unlike J2b2-L283, E-V13 appeared in La Tene from Czech-Bohemia as well, and there is yet one E-M215 unresolved sample from France La Tene Hallstatt (i have no doubt it's downstream E-V13).

 

[Riverman]

I think both J-L283 and E-V13 will be present in Eastern Hallstatt and trickling in from there to the West. The question is just the frequency and in which groups, but for the provinces of e.g. Fr?g (primarily) and Kalenderberg (secondarily), there can be little doubt about E-V13 being strong. The "Basaraboid" influences being dominant in Fr?g, there is obvious evidence for people migrating from the East, from Basarabi territory to Fr?g and these influences reach much further, deep into Southern Germany.
I think that's a sure path for E-V13 spread in the Iron Age, less sure is earlier migration within Urnfield networks, but I guess its there too.

 

[Excine]

Yes, that's already certain, Geto-Dacians and Thracians were primarily E-V13 carriers. It's yet to be seen if classical Greeks (expected Danubian/East Urnfielder heavy influence during Late Bronze Age to Early Iron Age transition) carried as well, and Southern Illyrians.

From PIE(Late Chalcolithic) to Late Bronze Age/Early Iron Age is quite a lot of time, one E-V13 tribe after adopting an IE speech without even having male influence could very likely have a boom from Middle Bronze Age to Early Iron Age. Quite simple actually.

Psenicevo-Babadag Early Iron Age to Classical Thracian samples are all E-V13 based on leaks, couple of years old downstream unspecified E-M215 lineage is from Svilengrad, likely Thracian Iron Age, the Eastern Urnfielders used ritual pits as secondary burials, they were part of larger channels involving Central Balkans Mediana, Paracin groups, and greater Gava groups (whom according to Garasanin were possible candidates for the groups who attacked and burned Mycenae).

Viminacium paper states the same for E-V13, Late to Early Iron Age expansion and it specifically states that local people cremated their dead.





Unlike J2b2-L283, E-V13 appeared in La Tene from Czech-Bohemia as well, and there is yet one E-M215 unresolved sample from France La Tene Hallstatt (i have no doubt it's downstream E-V13).

We have three to four hypothesized samples dating from 450 - 600 BC. We don't know if or not their dating will alter when/if they are published, but it is hardly grounds for someone to assert that "Thracians were predominantly/exclusively E-V13". I doubt that any IE-speaking individuals will be devoid of R1b/R1a haplogroups. The Viminacium people, like the E-V13 of Timacum Minus, may just as well be Illyrians (Dardanians likely). I'm merely suggesting that you wait for the samples before drawing conclusions.

 

[Hawk]

We have three to four hypothesized samples dating from 450 - 600 BC. We don't know if or not their dating will alter when/if they are published, but it is hardly grounds for someone to assert that "Thracians were predominantly/exclusively E-V13".

Yeah, yeah, when the paper gets published it will be revealed that their real dating was 1450-1600 A.D and they were Arnavut Jenicers and Bashi-bazouks.

The Kapitan Andreevo samples belong to Early Iron Age, and they were part of Psenicevo-Babadag Cultural Complex, having relationship with Central Balkans Mediana and Parachin groups and Eastern Balkans Bosut-Bassarabi Culture. If you spend a bit of time reading on archaeology, you would do a favor to everyone.

I doubt that any IE-speaking individuals will be devoid of R1b/R1a haplogroups.

R1b-Z2103 was reduced quite a lot during Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age because of these invasions coming from South-Eastern Urnfielders, we will probably see some R1b-Z2103 especially among Bessi and Maedi because the Western Rhodopes region generally resisted more the Eastern Urnfielder invasion and they followed their older EBA traditions up to classical times when the Bessi and Maedi appear (R1b-Z2103 + E-V13 mix likely), but they were incorporated into classical Thracian ethnos. And Thracians per se were a mixture of non-IE and IE elements with the adoption of IE language somewhere in Carpathian Basin in EBA, quite a lot of time between EBA and LBA, a specific tribe exclusively with E-V13 or predominantly could have arisen to power.

The Viminacium people, like the E-V13 of Timacum Minus, may just as well be Illyrians (Dardanians likely). I'm merely suggesting that you wait for the samples before drawing conclusions.

I already found tomb classification for Timacum Minus, they were either Dalmatians (very likely for J2b2-L283 samples) or Dardanians (very likely for E-V13). The case of Dardanians whether they were Illyrian or different ethnos is quite confusing, in Western fringes of Kosovo you see typical Illyrian grave-sites but all the rest used incineration(and different inhumation) burials indicating different population, the chronology is clear i think, we have been going thoroughly previously on that part.

 

[Excine]

Yeah, yeah, when the paper gets published it will be revealed that their real dating was 1450-1600 A.D and they were Arnavut Jenicers and Bashi-bazouks.

The Kapitan Andreevo samples belong to Early Iron Age, and they were part of Psenicevo-Babadag Cultural Complex, having relationship with Central Balkans Mediana and Parachin groups and Eastern Balkans Bosut-Bassarabi Culture. If you spend a bit of time reading on archaeology, you would do a favor to everyone.



R1b-Z2103 was reduced quite a lot during Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age because of these invasions coming from South-Eastern Urnfielders, we will probably see some R1b-Z2103 especially among Bessi and Maedi because the Western Rhodopes region generally resisted more the Eastern Urnfielder invasion and they followed their older EBA traditions up to classical times when the Bessi and Maedi appear (R1b-Z2103 + E-V13 mix likely), but they were incorporated into classical Thracian ethnos. And Thracians per se were a mixture of non-IE and IE elements with the adoption of IE language somewhere in Carpathian Basin in EBA, quite a lot of time between EBA and LBA, a specific tribe exclusively with E-V13 or predominantly could have arisen to power.



I already found tomb classification for Timacum Minus, they were either Dalmatians (very likely for J2b2-L283 samples) or Dardanians (very likely for E-V13). The case of Dardanians whether they were Illyrian or different ethnos is quite confusing, in Western fringes of Kosovo you see typical Illyrian grave-sites but all the rest used incineration(and different inhumation) burials indicating different population, the chronology is clear i think, we have been going thoroughly previously on that part.

Their archaeological dating is 550 BC, not Early Iron Age and certainly not a date which would make them Proto-Thracian. The point I'm trying to make is that the genetic samples your theory is based on are unpublished and even if nothing changes they're not even proof that Thracians were predominantly/exclusively E-V13. How do you even know that these guys are Thracians? The J-L283 people from Croatia can trace their EEF ancestry back to people who lived in the Neolithic and Chalcolithic western Balkans. I assume that if these E-V13 people are Thracians they should have some ancestry from Late Neolithic populations of Bulgaria, but that will be seen when and if they're published.

From what I've read there isn't a strict division of inhumation vs. cremation. The same people may have practiced cremation in one site and inhumation in another. Check how in the same Dacian sites people practiced both. Timacum Minus was primarily a settlement of the Aurelia Dardanorum II and the samples are from the 4th century AD. I don't see why we should divide the haplogroups according to a scheme which says one hg = one tribe. Because this is the 4th century AD, there's not even a reason to do that because in all likelihood, the people who lived there spoke some version of Albanian and are "Proto-Albanians".

 

[Hawk]

Their archaeological dating is 550 BC, not Early Iron Age and certainly not a date which would make them Proto-Thracian. The point I'm trying to make is that the genetic samples your theory is based on are unpublished and even if nothing changes they're not even proof that Thracians were predominantly/exclusively E-V13. How do you even know that these guys are Thracians? The J-L283 people from Croatia can trace their EEF ancestry back to people who lived in the Neolithic and Chalcolithic western Balkans. I assume that if these E-V13 people are Thracians they should have some ancestry from Late Neolithic populations of Bulgaria, but that will be seen when and if they're published.

From what I've read there isn't a strict division of inhumation vs. cremation. The same people may have practiced cremation in one site and inhumation in another. Check how in the same Dacian sites people practiced both. Timacum Minus was primarily a settlement of the Aurelia Dardanorum II and the samples are from the 4th century AD. I don't see why we should divide the haplogroups according to a scheme which says one hg = one tribe. Because this is the 4th century AD, there's not even a reason to do that because in all likelihood, the people who lived there spoke some version of Albanian and are "Proto-Albanians".

• ARCHAEOLOGICAL EXCAVATIONS OF A PIT SANCTUARY NEAR THE VILLAGE OF KAPITAN ANDREEVO (Hristo Popov – [email protected]) The site is located on a terrace above the Maritsa River. The excavations aimed at specifying the borders of the site and its features. The main part of the archaeological structures belonged to a pit sanctuary. Twenty ritual pits were explored. The pits come from different periods of the Iron Age: the early phase of the Early Iron Age (10th – 8th centuries BC), the transition period between the Early and the Late Iron Age (6th – mid 5th centuries BC), and the Early Hellenistic period (second half of the 4th – 3rd centuries BC). The typical pottery shapes include jugs, bowls, cups, pots and small dolia. A bronze pin with spiral-like head, which finds exact parallels in Itonia, Thessaly, and Drama, Thrace, and dates to the 9th – 8th century BC, deserves special attention among the finds. The pottery of the 6th – 5th centuries BC shows early wheel-made shapes. Fragmentary Greek amphorae were found in some pits, e.g. a bottom of an amphora from Chios that dates to the mid 5th century BC. A small open settlement was founded on the site during the Early Middle Ages. Three semi-dug sunken-floored houses were discovered during the excavations and two of them were entirely excavated. The present data from the excavations allow us to date the mediaeval settlement to the 7th – 8th centuries AD.

http://www.fastionline.org/excavation/micro_view.php?fst_cd=AIAC_2026&curcol=sea_cd-AIAC_2385

Obviously, Greece was influenced by Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age migrations from these Carpathian Urnfielders, hence the similarity. You should become more acquainted with Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age Balkans. Because jumping from places to places is not possible. There is always chronology and logical explanations.

As for Late Neolithic Bulgaria, no E-V13, just as there was none in Western Balkans (Encrusted Pottery Culture from Croatia was G2a).

 

[Riverman]

Their archaeological dating is 550 BC, not Early Iron Age and certainly not a date which would make them Proto-Thracian.

The real issue is that practically all of Thrace was later Thracian and this area and culture, Psenichevo, is at the core of "Thracianness".
That's like La Tene for Celts or Jastorf for Germanics.
And they are there, without significant outside interference, since the Earlier Iron Age.
The questions you have to ask are:
- is this a core Thracian culture: Yes.
- was there a significant cultural or ethnic change since the earliest Iron Age: No.
- was E-V13 as widespread in Thrace before the LBA to EIA transition: No.

Logical consequences: E-V13 spread in Thrace between the LBA to EIA and was at least one of the main Thracian haplogroups.
A conclusion which being also supported by E-V13 popping most consistently up in Thracian/ Daco-Thracian influenced territories.

We have so far not a single older find from outside that areas of Eastern Urnfield, Hallstatt and Psenichevo-Basarabi.

 

[EV13SON]

Alright we need some moderation here... keep the EV13 and Ukraine/Russia discussion back in their own threads this is I2A where's the ref at?

 

[Excine]

Obviously, Greece was influenced by Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age migrations from these Carpathian Urnfielders, hence the similarity. You should become more acquainted with Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age Balkans. Because jumping from places to places is not possible. There is always chronology and logical explanations.

As for Late Neolithic Bulgaria, no E-V13, just as there was none in Western Balkans (Encrusted Pottery Culture from Croatia was G2a).

Encrusted Pottery Culture in Croatia is a very small part of Slavonia. Not even 1/50 of Croatia was part of of EPC. https://www.researchgate.net/profil...the-Encrusted-Pottery-Culture-in-the_Q640.jpg

Since no E-V13 was found in EPC, it means that at least the population of Bulgaria which descended from EPC emigrants carried no E-V13. E-L618 was in Neolithic Croatia, so this is where we can start to map the routes E-V13 ancestors took. The "brother" clade E-Y182141 has an Albanian and a Sardinian in Europe. It indicates the importance of Adriatic movements for E-L618 descendants. The Adriatic was the main gateway for northern contacts with Mycenaean southern Greece, not the river routes of the inner Balkans.

 

[Riverman]

Encrusted Pottery Culture in Croatia is a very small part of Slavonia. Not even 1/50 of Croatia was part of of EPC. https://www.researchgate.net/profil...the-Encrusted-Pottery-Culture-in-the_Q640.jpg

Since no E-V13 was found in EPC, it means that at least the population of Bulgaria which descended from EPC emigrants carried no E-V13.

I'd rather agree with this, but its premature nevertheless, because we have two provinces out of many tested from Encrusted Pottery, and these provinces being already fundamentally different, yielded completely different yDNA, even though they were autosomally so close to each other.
I don't think Encrusted Pottery carried a large portion of E-V13, surely not the main lineages which expanded in the LBA-EIA, but we don't know for sure yet. It just became very unlikely, to put it that way.

E-L618 was in Neolithic Croatia, so this is where we can start to map the routes E-V13 ancestors took. The "brother" clade E-Y182141 has an Albanian and a Sardinian in Europe. It indicates the importance of Adriatic movements for E-L618 descendants. The Adriatic was the main gateway for northern contacts with Mycenaean southern Greece, not the river routes of the inner Balkans.

It seems after E1b1b entered Europe with Impresso-Cardial most likely, it became very widespread in various groups, but especially the Michelsberger along Rhine and Danube and in Lengyel. I think Lengyel is the core, for Croatia, the Adriatic, there is no argument any more, because
a) it was not found there later, especially no E-V13
b) the later documented and modern spread, branching events and frequencies, don't correspond well with a Southern Balkan origin. Only the Carpathian and Northern Balkan region can be considered and from the Northern Balkan/Western and Southern Carpathains, we have evidence for a non-significant presence as well. So what does remain? its primarly the North Eastern Carpathians, the Upper Tisza region with its tributary rivers. And incidently, that's also the region from where we have the least samples from, throughout the ages, especially if looking at North Western/Northern Romania, Eastern Slovakia and Transcarpathia/Western Ukraine. That's where E-V13 was coming from, in all likelihood, in the Bronze Age.

 

[Hawk]

There are some other Y-DNA results from Western Balkans Neolithic.

E-L618 was present from Epirus to Spain in a Cardial Context. So, that E-L618 in Croatia was a lone-wolf.

We generated genome-wide data from almost all individuals retrieved from the Potočani mass burial (n = 38). The genotypes have been deposited for public access to the Reich lab website (https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/datasets) and the aligned sequences to the EMBL Nucleotide Sequence Database (ENA) with the accession number PRJEB42243. Our analysis of 93% of the individuals shows that the ancestry of the people there was homogeneous. Principal Component Analysis reveals that the analyzed individuals are slightly shifted from the Anatolia Neolithic cluster in the direction of Western European hunter-gatherers, similar to other Middle to Late Neolithic European farmers before the arrival of steppe ancestry, but especially to those from Eastern Europe (Fig 3A). We confirm this pattern by successfully modelling the Potočani individuals as a mixture of predominantly Anatolian Neolithic ancestry with ~9% Western European hunter-gatherer ancestry (Fig 3B), without any evidence of steppe-related ancestry. This is further supported by the presence of paternal lineages typical of Balkan Neolithic populations (G2, I2 and C-V20), and the absence of lineages typical of steppe expansions (R1a and R1b-M269). Overall, our analysis of uniparental markers identifies 30 different mitochondrial lineages and six different Y-chromosome lineages, suggesting that the Potočani victims belonged to a large community with a diverse pool of female lineages.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0247332

 

[Hawk]

Encrusted Pottery Culture in Croatia is a very small part of Slavonia. Not even 1/50 of Croatia was part of of EPC. https://www.researchgate.net/profil...the-Encrusted-Pottery-Culture-in-the_Q640.jpg

Since no E-V13 was found in EPC, it means that at least the population of Bulgaria which descended from EPC emigrants carried no E-V13. E-L618 was in Neolithic Croatia, so this is where we can start to map the routes E-V13 ancestors took. The "brother" clade E-Y182141 has an Albanian and a Sardinian in Europe. It indicates the importance of Adriatic movements for E-L618 descendants. The Adriatic was the main gateway for northern contacts with Mycenaean southern Greece, not the river routes of the inner Balkans.

You seem to jump from Early Neolithic straight away in Early Iron Age, like nothing happened in Middle/Late Neolithic, Chalcolithic, Early/Middle Late Bronze Age. Well, a lot of movements happened during that time. We can start with Psenicevo-Babadag (E-V13) and using reverse logic we can deduce these group of people were part of Carpatho-Danubian Urnfield descended people. If E-V13 was in inner Balkans, then the most probable candidate is the Northern hemisphere of Bubanj-Hum Early Bronze Age which covered mostly modern-day Serbia.

 

[Jovialis]

Mongolian apologist for putin's agenda! Nobody cares about you? Go somewhere else!

This thread has nothing to do with the Ukraine war. You don't have a right to use ethnic slurs against people here.