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Thread: New map of mtDNA haplogroup L

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    mtDNA L is actually quite low in Sicily much like the Mediterranean (Italian/Crete/Cypriot) range/average of 1%-3%;
    In contrast to the higher Atlantic Spain and Portugal;

    Sicily -
    Sicily [106 samples / Cali et al 2003] = 0.9%
    Sicily [105 samples / Achilli et al 2007] = 1.9%
    Sicily [169 samples / Plaza et al 2003] = 0.6%

    Italy -
    Tuscany [322 samples / Achilli et al 2007] = 1.9%
    Marche [813 samples / Achilli et al 2007] = 0.9%
    Central Italy [83 samples / Plaza et al 2003] = 1.2%
    Lombardy [177samples / Achilli et al 2007] = 0.0%
    Piedmont [169 samples / Achilli et al 2007] = 0.0%
    Basilicata [92 samples / Ottoni et al 2009] = 2.2%
    Apulia/Calabria [226 samples / Achilli et al 2007] = 0.0%

    Spain -
    Iberia (Spain/Portugal) [310 samples / Casas et al 2006] = 7.4%
    Central Spain [50 samples / Plaza et al 2003] = 4.0%
    NW Spain [216 samples / Achilli et al 2007] = 3.7%
    Galicia [92 samples / Pereira et al 2005] = 3.3%
    Spain (Prov. Zamora) [214 samples / Alvarez et al 2010] = 4.7%
    Spain (Com. Sayago) [33 samples / Alvarez et al 2010] = 18.1%
    Cordoba [108 samples / Casas et al 2006] = 8.3%
    Catalonia [101 samples / Alvarez-Iglesias et al 2009] = 2.9%

    Portugal -
    Portugal [549 samples / Pereira et al 2005] = 5.8%
    North Portugal [100 samples / Plaza et al 2003] = 5.0%
    Central Portugal [82 samples / Pereira et al 2010] = 9.7%
    South Portugal [195 samples / Brehm et al 2003] = 11.3%

    @ Angela
    The tripple town tests are quite common praxis for mtDNA L;

    Tuscany [Achilli et al 2007]: Murlo 1.2% / Volterra 2.6% / Casentino 1.6%
    Sicily [Romano et al 2003]: Sciacca 2.3% / Castelamare 0.8% / Ragusa 0.0% / Troina 0.0%
    Portugal [Pereira et al 2010]: Coruche 8.7% / Pias 3.9% / Alcacer do Sal 22.0%

    The high number for Portugal were given as with the Atlantic-slave trade and slaves from West Africa;
    Pereira et al 2010 -
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20737604
    To add to this:
    mtDNA L was also tested in other places:

    Veneto (NE Italy) = 0.0%
    [68 samples / Mogantale-Profizi et al 2001]
    Campania (S Italy) = 0.3%
    [313 samples / Achilli et al 2007]
    Alpine (Lessinia/Sappada/Sauris/Timau) = 0.0%
    [193 samples / Capocasa et al 2013]

    Madeira (Portugal) = 12.9%
    [155 samples / Brehm et al 2003]
    West Andalusia (Spain) = 5.7%
    [158 samples / Hernandez et al 2014]

    The Balearic Islands are as Mediterranean islands in the Mediterranean range of 1%-3% [2.2% 231 samples / Picornell et al 2005] distancing from the higher mtDNA L results of the South Atlantic facade (Morocco/Spain/Portugal);

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    Very interesting!

    Do you have the link, thanks.

    I found the link.

    It's intriguing that Northern Italy has more mtdna L than Central or Southern Italy according to Brisighelli's revised work.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    To add to this:
    mtDNA L was also tested in other places:

    Veneto (NE Italy) = 0.0%
    [68 samples / Mogantale-Profizi et al 2001]
    Campania (S Italy) = 0.3%
    [313 samples / Achilli et al 2007]
    Alpine (Lessinia/Sappada/Sauris/Timau) = 0.0%
    [193 samples / Capocasa et al 2013]

    Madeira (Portugal) = 12.9%
    [155 samples / Brehm et al 2003]
    West Andalusia (Spain) = 5.7%
    [158 samples / Hernandez et al 2014]


    The Balearic Islands are as Mediterranean islands in the Mediterranean range of 1%-3% [2.2% 231 samples / Picornell et al 2005] distancing from the higher mtDNA L results of the South Atlantic facade (Morocco/Spain/Portugal);
    Add also this then:


    Spain -

    Rhouda et al. 2006: (Central & Northeastern Spain) [686 samples] = 0%

    (Andalusia) [158 samples] = 1.9%

    Garcia et al. 2011: (Basque region) [462 samples] = 0%

    Lopez-Parra et al. 2009 (Pyrenaic regions) [233 samples] = 0%


    Italy -

    Semino et al. 1989 (Sicily) [49 samples]: 4.40%

    Plaza et al. 2003 (Southern Italy) [37 samples]: 8.1%

    Brisighelli et al. 2012 (NW Italy) [100 samples]: 2%

    Achilli et al 2007 Latium (Central Italy) n=4/138 2.90%

    Achilli et al 2007 Volterra (Central-North Italy) n = 3/114 2.63%


    Nice that you don't even hide your agenda lumping Spain, Portugal and Morocco together. Nice that you mention Madeira with its particular history for your purposes (simillar as using the Canary Islands or the Azores as you already did when you used to call yourself Wormhole). And even better what you do mentioning only one part of the Hernandez et al 2014 study (West Andalusia, which is indeed not Western Andalusia as a whole region, but Huelva) misteriously forgetting East Andalusia (Granada - 0.83% L), where your beloved "Moors" lasted for the longest period.

    http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot...ights-w-e.html

    In short, nice way to confirm what you really are ;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    As McDonald stated to me ...........if you are 100% european, your line has been somewhere in Europe from over 2100 years ago.

    He also stated,
    Italian is north italian in his splits, while tuscan is central and south italian

    your X- chromosone in regards to middle-east is all on the maternal , a little bit by the maternal,paternal part, but the rest is maternal maternal side

    you have far more charts than what I got from Doug
    that means that according to McDonald I'm from central or south of Italy...
    actually I'm not, and by generations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fla88 View Post
    that means that according to McDonald I'm from central or south of Italy...
    actually I'm not, and by generations.
    Doug gives you different sums of populations to describe your genome. The little French, Lithuanian, Poland, etc. that you get, is actually telling that you are more "Northern" than Southern Italians (tagged as Tuscans there), even though I suspect you don't exactly fit with other North Italians. You probably slightly deviate towards south for whatever reason. Try to test your genome in more detail using calculators and compare against national and regional averages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    Add also this then:


    Spain -

    Rhouda et al. 2006: (Central & Northeastern Spain) [686 samples] = 0%

    (Andalusia) [158 samples] = 1.9%

    Garcia et al. 2011: (Basque region) [462 samples] = 0%

    Lopez-Parra et al. 2009 (Pyrenaic regions) [233 samples] = 0%


    Italy -

    Semino et al. 1989 (Sicily) [49 samples]: 4.40%

    Plaza et al. 2003 (Southern Italy) [37 samples]: 8.1%

    Brisighelli et al. 2012 (NW Italy) [100 samples]: 2%

    Achilli et al 2007 Latium (Central Italy) n=4/138 2.90%

    Achilli et al 2007 Volterra (Central-North Italy) n = 3/114 2.63%


    Nice that you don't even hide your agenda lumping Spain, Portugal and Morocco together. Nice that you mention Madeira with its particular history for your purposes (simillar as using the Canary Islands or the Azores as you already did when you used to call yourself Wormhole). And even better what you do mentioning only one part of the Hernandez et al 2014 study (West Andalusia, which is indeed not Western Andalusia as a whole region, but Huelva) misteriously forgetting East Andalusia (Granada - 0.83% L), where your beloved "Moors" lasted for the longest period.

    http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot...ights-w-e.html

    In short, nice way to confirm what you really are ;)
    Indeed. I have been exposing him and his manipulations/spin-doctoring since his first posts in these forums (after "Wormhole" got permanently banned for rampant racism, a user that strangely enough had very similar worries and agendas) which "coincidentally" were on this very topic of "African" DNA in Europe, something which very obviously deeply bothers him when it comes to Italy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    Doug gives you different sums of populations to describe your genome. The little French, Lithuanian, Poland, etc. that you get, is actually telling that you are more "Northern" than Southern Italians (tagged as Tuscans there), even though I suspect you don't exactly fit with other North Italians. You probably slightly deviate towards south for whatever reason. Try to test your genome in more detail using calculators and compare against national and regional averages.
    Probabily not northern enough to be compared to a guy from Lombardia, but northern enough to be what I am: Ligurian. Where can I find national and regional avereges?

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    This is what McDonald told me about my mtDNA:

    "It was LONG ago. African slave. Its possible to have L3 mtDNA and in fact REALLY be 100.0000% European on the autosomes, X and Y. "

    I asked him: could it be brought by Etruscans as well?

    he answered:

    "Sure ... but they got it the same way ... from North Africa.

    EVERY population around the Mediterranean has all kinds of common non-Pygmy, non-Bushman

    mtDNA and Y-DNA in small amounts."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    Even if L is an ancient marker in Iberia (it is well known at this point that a couple of samples were found in Navarre, none of them L3), it is more likely that most L clades found across Europe were brought by women slaves recruited by the Romans. They also travelled back and forth to many places.

    You basically say it spread in relatively recent times from Iberia. I don't see any Catalan "responsability" regarding the L figures for Tuscany or North Italy, nor the other way around (¿How about this possibility? ¬¬)

    The available data does not support your point. Ancient L samples in Iberia were L2 (confirmed results), not the type we're dealing with right now.
    I am saying that L figures in iberia in those very ancient period, as for L3f, as per many papers states, it originates in the upper Nile, went to the levant and liby-phoenician area could even be Greek Cyrene area. But as she is "marked" as 100% european, she then was in modern Europe somewhere. There are ancient greek and Phoenician settlements in Iberia/catalonia area, as well as France, corsica sicily etc............clearly we can only say that her marker was outside of Europe later than 100BC.

    I never seen these confirmed L2, but if you say so V, then I believe you
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    Doug gives you different sums of populations to describe your genome. The little French, Lithuanian, Poland, etc. that you get, is actually telling that you are more "Northern" than Southern Italians (tagged as Tuscans there), even though I suspect you don't exactly fit with other North Italians. You probably slightly deviate towards south for whatever reason. Try to test your genome in more detail using calculators and compare against national and regional averages.
    Her Northern part most likely derives from her paternal side only, ................as she stated , they are from Belluno , which is the most northern of the 7 provinces of the Veneto region. Belluno is a town and also a large province bordering Austria

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post

    http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot...ights-w-e.html

    In short, nice way to confirm what you really are ;)
    Do you trust Maju ?
    He is basque , while his mother is from Veneto

    He knows about Iberian genetics

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    Quote Originally Posted by fla88 View Post
    that means that according to McDonald I'm from central or south of Italy...
    actually I'm not, and by generations.
    I wouldn't necessarily take Professor McDonald's analyses as the final word in these matters, or even as a particularly informative word, and especially when you are looking at the results of southern Europeans. He is the creator of the autosomal analysis program used by FTDNA (Population Finder), which gives highly questionable results, in my opinion, to put it as politely as I can.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I wouldn't necessarily take Professor McDonald's analyses as the final word in these matters, or even as a particularly informative word, and especially when you are looking at the results of southern Europeans. He is the creator of the autosomal analysis program used by FTDNA (Population Finder), which gives highly questionable results, in my opinion, to put it as politely as I can.
    I didn't know that..people always told me that he was some sort of genious in genetics

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Her Northern part most likely derives from her paternal side only, ................as she stated , they are from Belluno , which is the most northern of the 7 provinces of the Veneto region. Belluno is a town and also a large province bordering Austria
    I think so too. But curiously my mom and my grandmother look northerner ..blond hair and blue eyes.. while my father looks Italian..dark eyes and dark hair.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I wouldn't necessarily take Professor McDonald's analyses as the final word in these matters, or even as a particularly informative word, and especially when you are looking at the results of southern Europeans. He is the creator of the autosomal analysis program used by FTDNA (Population Finder), which gives highly questionable results, in my opinion, to put it as politely as I can.
    he was with Ftdna in its initial format of PF, never completed it and they (ftdna) have changed his format as he left years ago.............which is why its still in Beta format........do not rely on PF from ftdna.

    He is with BGA

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    I never seen these confirmed L2, but if you say so V, then I believe you
    There you are the samples listed: http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ancientdna.shtml

    As you can see there are two possible L3 results, but these are unlikely to be confirmed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Do you trust Maju ?
    I don't know him enough, I know some people don't like this guy, including Dienekes'. Anyway, I just wanted to focus on the data of the study that some individuals can't remember.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fla88 View Post
    I think so too. But curiously my mom and my grandmother look northerner ..blond hair and blue eyes.. while my father looks Italian..dark eyes and dark hair.
    It matters little in genetics, example
    me, my father and grandfather have all different shades of green eyes, yet my grandfather has chestnut coloured hair, my father black ( not dark brown ) and I had dark blonde.
    My sons both have pale to mid blue eyes, one is black haired and other is dark blonde..............

    my mother and sister both have hazel eyes, both black hair ...........I am not saying dark brown, but black


    Try the free
    gedmatch.com

    It is very handy in checking your admixtures and see where you are from, it has a triangulation method of people with similar genetics as it uses every persons data from every genetic company that they tested. It has many nice programs

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    Quote Originally Posted by fla88 View Post
    Probabily not northern enough to be compared to a guy from Lombardia, but northern enough to be what I am: Ligurian. Where can I find national and regional avereges?
    Join Gedmatch: http://gedmatch.com/

    Upload your raw data and start calculating your genome with the different tests available.

    To check the averages, I think only Dodecad provides the info. Have a look at the site: http://dodecad.blogspot.com.es/

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    I tried many calculators and the results are very different ..
    I'd like to try "triangulation" and "one to many matches" but I couldn't because it appears my kit has not completed batch processing (I don't know what that means)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    he was with Ftdna in its initial format of PF, never completed it and they (ftdna) have changed his format as he left years ago.............which is why its still in Beta format........do not rely on PF from ftdna.

    He is with BGA


    Yes, I know.

    As we have previously discussed, I don't share your high opinion of his work. BGA is only marginally better than PF so far as I can see, but to each their own.

    From my point of view, there are still not enough reference populations, (I mean, really, only a few people from Bergamo and Tuscan samples for a country with the highest regional diversity in Europe? And using Ashkenazi Jews as a Middle Eastern reference population, with all their European admixture?) his explanations are about as clear as mud when they aren't completely simplistic, he is seriously lacking in knowledge of archaeology, history or population movements in Europe, and given the results, his algorithm is still obviously faulty. The good professor, with all due respect, is a professor of chemistry, not genetics, and certainly not population genetics.

    If someone wants an analysis of their autosomal make-up, I only recommend 23and me.

    I used to highly recommend the calculators produced by Dienekes, and they still have their uses, especially for comparisons with other members of one's ethnic group, but as we've discovered through the work of population geneticists of the highest caliber recently, they're of very limited usefulness in terms of actual ancestry and the population movements which created the autsomal signature of one's area. You need to have followed the entire development of this method in order to really understand what those components do and not mean...as Dienekes himself pointed out, to his credit, particularly as time went on.

    A well done IBD analysis is also very informative.

    In terms of cutting edge population genetics, you can't go wrong with anything from the Reich group at Harvard, and I think the work done by Ralph and Coop on IBD analysis is also very impressive.

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by fla88 View Post
    I think so too. But curiously my mom and my grandmother look northerner ..blond hair and blue eyes.. while my father looks Italian..dark eyes and dark hair.

    I know you don't need me to tell you that there are a variety of "Italian" looks.

    And, for what these kinds of studies are worth...
    http://img.readtiger.com/wkp/en/Blond_hair_Italy.gif

    So, no surprise as far as the phenotype of the Ligurian members of your family is concerned.

    Also, for what it's worth, you should know that contrary to everything you've ever been taught, Ligurians are not quite northern Italian in the mind of some people...apparently you have to eat all of your food covered in speck to qualify. Also, be prepared for judgments by people who have either never been there, or went on a group tour for two weeks! LOL! And you'll be treated to some novel pronouncements on Italian history by people who've never studied it either...just try to keep a sense of humor about it all, as difficult as it may sometimes be...

    Now that I know someone from Liguria is on the site, and would likely be interested, I'm going to start threads on both the anthropology and the archaeology and culture of this and neighboring affiliated areas for some of the materials I have gathered.

    I've also posted about the McDonald results and the various calculators in my response to Sile. (Post #120)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I know you don't need me to tell you that there are a variety of "Italian" looks.

    And, for what these kinds of studies are worth...
    http://img.readtiger.com/wkp/en/Blond_hair_Italy.gif

    So, no surprise as far as the phenotype of the Ligurian members of your family is concerned.

    Also, for what it's worth, you should know that contrary to everything you've ever been taught, Ligurians are not quite northern Italian in the mind of some people...apparently you have to eat all of your food covered in speck to qualify. Also, be prepared for judgments by people who have either never been there, or went on a group tour for two weeks! LOL! And you'll be treated to some novel pronouncements on Italian history by people who've never studied it either...just try to keep a sense of humor about it all, as difficult as it may sometimes be...

    Now that I know someone from Liguria is on the site, and would likely be interested, I'm going to start threads on both the anthropology and the archaeology and culture of this and neighboring affiliated areas for some of the materials I have gathered.

    I've also posted about the McDonald results and the various calculators in my response to Sile. (Post #120)
    lol I know about this kind of discrimination.. I don't mind :)

    in which section are you posting the threads? I'm interested.


    do you know why I can't use the "one to many" option? it says my kit has not completed batch processing

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Yes, I know.

    As we have previously discussed, I don't share your high opinion of his work. BGA is only marginally better than PF so far as I can see, but to each their own.

    From my point of view, there are still not enough reference populations, (I mean, really, only a few people from Bergamo and Tuscan samples for a country with the highest regional diversity in Europe? And using Ashkenazi Jews as a Middle Eastern reference population, with all their European admixture?) his explanations are about as clear as mud when they aren't completely simplistic, he is seriously lacking in knowledge of archaeology, history or population movements in Europe, and given the results, his algorithm is still obviously faulty. The good professor, with all due respect, is a professor of chemistry, not genetics, and certainly not population genetics.

    If someone wants an analysis of their autosomal make-up, I only recommend 23and me.

    I used to highly recommend the calculators produced by Dienekes, and they still have their uses, especially for comparisons with other members of one's ethnic group, but as we've discovered through the work of population geneticists of the highest caliber recently, they're of very limited usefulness in terms of actual ancestry and the population movements which created the autsomal signature of one's area. You need to have followed the entire development of this method in order to really understand what those components do and not mean...as Dienekes himself pointed out, to his credit, particularly as time went on.

    A well done IBD analysis is also very informative.

    In terms of cutting edge population genetics, you can't go wrong with anything from the Reich group at Harvard, and I think the work done by Ralph and Coop on IBD analysis is also very impressive.
    you clearly know more about autosomal than me, but its a bit much to claim 23andme are the best at telling us who a north-italian is or tuscan or anyone else in Italy when they have only 13 samples of North-italians
    Population Source Sample Size
    Italy 23andMe 556
    Italy 1000 Genomes 98
    North Italian HGDP 13
    Tuscan HGDP 8

    clearly Gedmatch stands head and shoulders above 23andme who I find very much lacking in regards to auDna splits

  24. #124
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    mtDna L3f is a very fascinating marker, I have read many of the professional papers on this marker recently and its origins vary greatly, a lot of times its even called Eurasian or even Pannonian.
    I think a person such a MACIANO can clear up this marker for us after deciphering the many many papers on it by these genetic scholars

  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by fla88 View Post
    I tried many calculators and the results are very different ..
    I'd like to try "triangulation" and "one to many matches" but I couldn't because it appears my kit has not completed batch processing (I don't know what that means)
    I have 2 accounts in gedmatch ,
    1 - an ftDna account which took 1 day to load, and a
    2- 23andme account which took 4 days to load

    I guess you need to wait

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