New map of mtDNA haplogroup L

Well, Angela, you certainly don't work 60+ plus hours a week now because you are never away from this site.

ITALIANS start most of the trouble on these websites by claiming they are "whiter" than Iberians.

Interestingly, the best of Italian culture is in Tuscany which definitely has more mtdna L than is usual in Europe.
 
Interestingly, the best of Italian culture is in Tuscany which definitely has more mtdna L than is usual in Europe.

Apart from unusual Spain and Portugal - who have levels of mtDNA L as 18.2% (Alvarez et al 2010) and 22.0% (Pereira et al 2010) and other such high figures [page1 - post#19 / post#11] not found anywhere else in Europe - might also want to take note of the Eupedia map on page 1 and the data used for it;

For 22% and 18% are higher (basic math) than the 1.9% Tuscany (2.6% Volterra);

PS: The other "Celt"-Iberians (Knovas especially) might find your slander and assertions towards Angela very "helpful" and awesome, but i think its not very nice;
 
Well, Angela, you certainly don't work 60+ plus hours a week now because you are never away from this site.

ITALIANS start most of the trouble on these websites by claiming they are "whiter" than Iberians.

Interestingly, the best of Italian culture is in Tuscany which definitely has more mtdna L than is usual in Europe.

When you attack respected forum members such as Angela and Nobody1 because you don't like data they've published, I don't think it helps your credibility. And why do Iberians have a problem with the fact that they have a small but significant amount of "African" DNA? Why is that a problem for you? At the end of the day, all modern humans are very close cousins.
 
Nobody1 is a valued member of this community, one who contributes research and analysis on many topics, from genetics, to history and archaeology, to linguistics, and in the context of discussions about many European countries.

This is in total contrast to you and your Iberian posse, who only grace us with your presence when Spain is mentioned, and then only in the hopes of proving that there is no African influence whatsoever in Iberia, an influence which is manifestly there for everyone to see in the mtDNA, yDNA, and particularly in the autosomal DNA. Your endeavor is therefore doomed to failure and merely makes you all look either dishonest or delusional, and ridiculous in either case. Ever heard of the term ethnic nihilists? I believe it, or something like it, was coined by Maciamo.

Oh, excuse me, if this current visit is any indication, you've moved beyond denying that these mtdna numbers exist (there is deafening silence about the autosomal results shown in recent papers, however) Now, you content yourselves with arguing that Italians have it too. Congratulations...we're seeing some progress in your deprogramming.

And please, spare us all the unending posts about papers that find mtDNA "L" in Italy. You've already directed Maciamo's attention to them in this thread, and have posted them again, and again, and again, in the hundreds, if not thousands, of boring, repetitive other posts on this topic here and elsewhere.

No one on this site, to my knowledge, denies that there is some mtDNA "L" in Italy. I certainly don't. I don't give a ***** behind about it, either. As to arguing about whether some particular study should show 1%, instead of 2-3%, with the aim of trying to somehow deny or minimize its existence whether in the abstract or in relationship to some other nationality, I can't imagine so demeaning myself.
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And while I'm at it, stop posting papers on the Basques for these kinds of comparisons. Pick up some of the recent autosomal studies on Europe, and look up the SSA percentages, the EEF percentages, you name it. For whatever reason, you have a different profile than even Pais Vasco...a small minority of your population anyway...deal with it.

Really, and I mean this sincerely...you and your friends and many of the young people whose posts I have read on the topic of genetics have been led astray. I try to excuse this kind of behavior on the grounds of what I presume is the extreme youth of you and your friends...but at your age I was working 60-70 hours a week, which didn't leave me any time to obsess on that kind of nonsense even had I been at all inclined to those kinds of viewpoints. If the economy prevents that, go to school, broaden your mind and your horizons. Study the culture of your own country...that should be the source of your pride, not how many "European" or northwest European or Celtic or whatever genes you have...

Nobody1 is a troublemaker with high pretensions of being something of an "expert" (which he is plainly not) and with a very transparent agenda, nothing else, and has been so since the very start, his very firsts posts in these forums were in fact attempted manipulations and "spins" on this very subject of "African" DNA in Europe, something which very obviously immensely bothers him as long as the words "Africa" and "Italy" pop up in the same context ("coincidentally" so was the permanently banned "Wormhole", an Italian claiming to be Canadian.) Notice that the Tuscan user was not saying anything about Iberia or Iberians and was only wondering who brought these genetic markers to Italy, more specifically to Tuscany. But your pal Nobody1 just couldn't keep away from always trying to point fingers at "Iberians" and coming up with lies (like telling this user that his ancestry might be from Iberia supposedly to "explain" why he scores positive, as if no 100% native Italian could do so) and manipulations. His usual game.

My posts here about mtDNA L in Italy were simply in answer to those Nobody1, the usual manipulator/Spin-Doctor when it comes to this topic since way back when. So don't act so surprised.

Regarding your other complaints: as Vallicanus pointed out, you and some other Italian/Italian-descended users here are not really in any position to be criticizing other people in these forums since your behavior is not always the most exceptional either, and it is usually you who throw stones first, not the other way around. Do you want me to quote and post links to some of your provoking posts directed at Iberians in other threads to remind you of this fact?
 
When you attack respected forum members such as Angela and Nobody1 because you don't like data they've published, I don't think it helps your credibility. And why do Iberians have a problem with the fact that they have a small but significant amount of "African" DNA? Why is that a problem for you? At the end of the day, all modern humans are very close cousins.

You should be directing that query to the "respected forum members" whose behavior you are trying to condone. It seems it's them and some other Italians who are immensely bothered by the fact that they too "have a small but significant amount of African DNA".
 
Well, Angela, you certainly don't work 60+ plus hours a week now because you are never away from this site.

ITALIANS start most of the trouble on these websites by claiming they are "whiter" than Iberians.

Interestingly, the best of Italian culture is in Tuscany which definitely has more mtdna L than is usual in Europe.

Indeed, apparently they think that trying to place the blame on others is going to work and nobody will notice what they do.
 
Apart from unusual Spain and Portugal - who have levels of mtDNA L as 18.2% (Alvarez et al 2010) and 22.0% (Pereira et al 2010) and other such high figures [page1 - post#19 / post#11] not found anywhere else in Europe - might also want to take note of the Eupedia map on page 1 and the data used for it;

For 22% and 18% are higher (basic math) than the 1.9% Tuscany (2.6% Volterra);

The 18% result is only for a municipality. If we look at the results of Casas et al. 2006 for southern Spain + southern Portugal (not all "Iberia", as you claimed) combined against those of southern Italy alone by itself in Plaza et al. 2003 we can also see that 8.1% is higher than 7.40% (basic math)

The map on page 1 omitted several studies. That was already established.

PS: The other "Celt"-Iberians (Knovas especially) might find your slander and assertions towards Angela very "helpful" and awesome, but i think its not very nice;

He wasn't slandering anyone, just pointing out the fact of what you and your friend obviously do around here.
 
Well, Angela, you certainly don't work 60+ plus hours a week now because you are never away from this site.

ITALIANS start most of the trouble on these websites by claiming they are "whiter" than Iberians.

Interestingly, the best of Italian culture is in Tuscany which definitely has more mtdna L than is usual in Europe.


What a boorish, vulgar and completely ignorant response...Are you capable of processing academic information?

As to "the trouble on these websites", I don't know anything about it, because I don't frequent skinhead, racist sites, some of which were started by people whom I am informed are now thankfully behind bars. I didn't even know that they existed until recently. Now that I know about them, I am more than happy to donate some of my time to seeing them permanently put out of business, and I mean "ALL" of them.

This is the only "genetics" website which I frequent, other than anthrogenica, and I'm embarrassed even about that, given that my office administrator has banned this as a racist site as well, probably partly because of the bilge posted by you and your friends. I assure you that reading the few threads in which I am interested takes very little time...in your case, perhaps a speed reading course might be in order. Of course, reading and understanding population genetics research papers is another matter, but you obviously have no experience with that...

As for my private life situation, it's none of your business, but let's just say that through years of very hard work and whatever gifts I possess, I have earned my leisure. If, as I think I remember, you claim to be from Canada, you have no excuse not to do the same.

For the record, I am half Tuscan/eastern Ligurian, and extraordinarily proud of my people...without us, the world would be a much poorer place in every conceivable way, as it would be without Italians as a whole. Obviously, you must have been spawned by some group which we had neither the time nor the inclination to civilize, however imperfectly.

And please, to adopt a Roman name for these sites and then spout the bilge and filth that you do is an abomination. I sincerely hope you're young and unemployed and living in your mother's basement...for a grown man to engage in these childish games is ridiculous.
 
PS: The other "Celt"-Iberians (Knovas especially) might find your slander and assertions towards Angela very "helpful" and awesome, but i think its not very nice;
It's been a very long time since you were banned under the t.r.o.l.l.-nickname Wormhole. You can keep going on, don't worry.

Just to illustrate what DracII says, this is what you said when answering to the Italian girl (post number 11):

It is mostly present in modern-day Europe in Iberia (Spain/Portugal) and maybe your ancestral MOM stems from there; Modern-day Tuscany (322 samples / Achilli et al 2008) has 1.8% mtDNA L;

And now, smile for the camera ;)
 
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what's wrong with L mtDNA anyway?

Nothing, but apparently some of your fellow Italians have a strange phobia regarding it and must always conjure up "Iberians" when someone starts asking questions about these genetic markers in Italy.
 
I unmasked this guy. Actually he was half French and half Berber, nothing to do with the Portuguese or Brazilian people. He joins 23andme, and he had the brilliant idea to post the same exact things in both forums. Not difficult to catch him.

Interesting. I don't remember seeing this. Where did the "unmasking" take place? I must have missed it. I always suspected he might be Brazilian, since Portuguese people usually don't have such obsessions about Spain and "African" DNA, but some Brazilians and other Latin Americans most definitely do.
 
He wasn't slandering anyone, just pointing out the fact of what you and your friend obviously do around here.
If someone can prove I was wrong, then I'm all ears. I published all the details and it was pretty evident, that guy wasn't so smart trying to hide his afrocentrist agenda.
 
Volterra is one of the ancient 12 etruscan cities

you answered the query

You missed the point, which was that he is always manipulating and cherry-picking whichever data suits his transparent agenda.

By the way, if you pool all the data in mtDNA studies about Italy published so far, you will end up with a higher frequency of mtDNA L in central Italy than in other parts. Since the Etruscans inhabited mostly the central parts of Italy, I think that answers the query of why some people who have an interest in trying to find out why this happened think of the Etruscans as a possible explanation.
 
If someone can prove I was wrong, then I'm all ears. I published all the details and it was pretty evident, that guy wasn't so smart trying to hide his afrocentrist agenda.

I am not disputing your findings about this user, only was asking where did you expose him. I would be interested in seeing it. Was it here or in another forum/site?
 
Interesting. I don't remember seeing this. Where did the "unmasking" take place? I must have missed it. I always suspected he might be Brazilian, since Portuguese people usually don't have such obsessions about Spain and "African" DNA, but some Brazilians and other Latin Americans most definitely do.
That happened about two years ago, honestly I'm tired to search posts. But he was even taking part in the Dodecad Project, where he gave all his ancestry details (publicly available). I just had to compare the data with the 23andme profile, and then the threads started by this subject. No doubt it was the same person.

The information was posted in this forum, of course.
 
I read East Africa as well.. then I read it was also present in ancient times in Middle East, Anatolia, Canary Islands and north Africa .. Some people also believe it is actually Eurasian

Yes, correct, but the place where it originated was East Africa. It reached all those other places later, as early humans started to migrate to other parts of the world out of Africa, as well as possibly later migrations/invasions/slavery.
 
see post #5

See posts #4, #6 and #13. There is no valid excuse to leave out perfectly legitimate studies just because they don't say what some people want to hear or do not go along with whatever incorrect assumptions they may have (one particularly interesting one implied here was that the only way any study on mtDNA in Spain could result in 0% regarding L markers in any given area might be by using exclusively samples from the Basque region; totally incorrect assumption.)
 
Nobody1 is a troublemaker with high pretensions of being something of an "expert" (which he is plainly not) and with a very transparent agenda, nothing else, and has been so since the very start, his very firsts posts in these forums were in fact attempted manipulations and "spins" on this very subject of "African" DNA in Europe, something which very obviously immensely bothers him as long as the words "Africa" and "Italy" pop up in the same context ("coincidentally" so was the permanently banned "Wormhole", an Italian claiming to be Canadian.) Notice that the Tuscan user was not saying anything about Iberia or Iberians and was only wondering who brought these genetic markers to Italy, more specifically to Tuscany. But your pal Nobody1 just couldn't keep away from always trying to point fingers at "Iberians" and coming up with lies (like telling this user that his ancestry might be from Iberia supposedly to "explain" why he scores positive, as if no 100% native Italian could do so) and manipulations. His usual game.

My posts here about mtDNA L in Italy were simply in answer to those Nobody1, the usual manipulator/Spin-Doctor when it comes to this topic since way back when. So don't act so surprised.

Regarding your other complaints: as Vallicanus pointed out, you and some other Italian/Italian-descended users here are not really in any position to be criticizing other people in these forums since your behavior is not always the most exceptional either, and it is usually you who throw stones first, not the other way around. Do you want me to quote and post links to some of your provoking posts directed at Iberians in other threads to remind you of this fact?

Only in the sick, twisted world of anthrofora Iberians could the disinterested comment that the Moors "might" be responsible for "some" of the "African" markers in the Iberians be considered a provocative attack. (I am not in the habit of making definitive "pronouncements" about these matters absent compelling evidence, which, given the status of the resolution of ancient "and" modern mtDNA lineages is impossible, in my opinion.)

By the way, are all these Spanish researchers also part of this vast anti-Iberian conspiracy? Is the owner of this website included? Have you taken a look at the map on this page? The only error I can find is the fact that certain papers on southern Italy were not included, although accessing the actual data from those papers might be difficult.

Have you, for that matter, read the papers on autosomal European genetics of the last couple of years? How do you explain those results away? Do you have any self awareness at all? Is your paranoia limited to this topic or more generalized? If it is more generalized, there are medications that might be helpful. Unfortunately, there are no medicines for terminal racism, outright dishonesty, or lack of intellectual capacity.

Just for clarity, I'm one of those Tuscan posters who was engaged in the discussion upthread about how these markers got to Toscana. However, neither you nor anyone else is going to bully me into not analyzing and discussing similar data in any country, including Spain.

All the same, my time for responding to illogical and biased posts is limited...I will investigate whether it is possible to block the comments you and your Iberian junta post from appearing when I log onto this site...it's a response I would recommend to others until and if the website administrators realize that it is posts like yours that offend new users like fla, and get this site black listed ...then intelligent people can conduct these discussions without being derailed and having their time wasted.

The only people who should be banned are you and other racists of your ilk...
 

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