Poland, more Germanic or Slavic?

[Tomenable]

It is marker of curious history. Cousin clade of Rurik's Scandinavian

These branches split 2500 years ago (or 2500 years before Rurik's birth - I don't remember exactly which of the two).

Veeeeery distant cousins.

BTW - what do you think, was Rurik Germanic-speaking or Non-Germanic speaking? Some theories say that he was a Kven or a Finn.

And if Germanic-speaking then probably he was a Germanized guy with Non-Germanic genetic ancestry, as indicated by his haplogroup.

What is interesting is that the Rurikid dynasty had absolutely no any "typically Germanic" haplogroups.

Because apart from N1c1 (which was most numerous among descendants of Rurikids), the following haplogroups were found:

R1a L260, R1a Z92, R1a M458, R1a Z280 and I2a1.

On the other hand, no of Rurikid descendants had "typically Germanic" haplogroups such as R1a Z284, R1b U106 or I1.

The Rurikid Dynasty DNA Project was by the way led by Polish scientist - doctor Andrzej Bajor.

I've heard that they are also planning to examine the genes of the Piast Dynasty (founders of Poland).

=======================================

As for the theory that Rurik was a Kven.

Here is a map of Kvens / Kvenland according to Ohthere of Hålogaland (9th century Norwegian traveller):

http://www.sagazorm.net/zorm/mythology/ohthere/ow.html

http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/ScandinaviaSweden.htm

According to Ohthere, in the mountains east of the Norwegians lived also some Finns. North of the Finns lived the Sami / Lapps. East and south-east of the Finns lived the Kvens, who often raided Norway (and Norwegians sometimes fought back across the mountains).

According to Norna-Gests þáttr Saga in 750 AD Kvens together with Curonians (who were Balts) invaded Southern Sweden.

It is uncertain what language was spoken by those Kvens, but certainly it was not a Germanic language.

It could be one of Finno-Ugric languages, or maybe some other Non-Indo-European language. Rather not Baltic.

Ohthere mentions Finns, Kvens and Sami separately. Sami people and their language are only very distantly related to Baltic Finns. But let's remember that "Finns" is not an originally Finnic name, but it is how foreigners (including Germanic people) called them.

Finland is after all Suomi in Finnish language, and Finns call themselves Suomalaiset.

In Sweden there are 1961 toponyms starting with Fin-, and only 892 starting with Dan- (in southern Sweden).

As we know southern Sweden used to belong to Denmark and was inhabited at least partially by ethnic Danes.

Fin- toponyms are also places which used to be inhabited by "Finns" (whatever it meant at that time).

Some of these toponyms are related to recent migrations, but some other indicate that much of Sweden in ancient times was inhabited by Non-Germanic peoples, who later got assimilated or destroyed / forced to emigrate by Germanic Swedes.

Question is - how far south in Sweden did those Non-Germanic Kvens originally live?

There is even a region called Finneveden as far south as in the southern Swedish province of Smaland.

According to Texas University historical maps collection those "Finns" / "Kvens" (orange) extended almost to the coast of the North Sea:

"Swedes & Goths" according to this map lived only in Southern Sweden, except for South-Western part which was Danish.

 

[arvistro]

I think I read in exactly Rurik project you mentioned that Gediminas and Rurik had common ancestor 200 BC. I will recheck when back in home.
As to specific Baltic clade, it seems it was very Baltic tribal borders 1200 literate. So, it should have entered Balts after any differences between Balts and Slavs arose. Unlike r1a clades which are pretty intermixed between East Slavs and Balts.

 

[Tomenable]

R1a Z280 (including its downclade Z92) is:

Russians - 38,7%
Belarusians - 35,4%
Lithuanians - 28,7%
Poles (in Poland) - 28,5%
Western Ukrainians (from Lviv) - 25,3%
Croats - 22,0% (but some sources give a larger %)

So as you can see it is by no means a specifically Baltic subclade.

East Slavs have more of it than Balts, and Poles have the same amount as Lithuanians.

Croats are South Slavs and also have a very significant amount of it.

Slavs also have a lot of I2a haplogroup, and it is not limited just to South Slavs (as some people think):

South Slavic Croats - 39,3% (other sources including Eupedia give a smaller %, but still large one)
Western Ukrainians (from Lviv) - 24,7%
Belarusians - 18,5%
Russians - 11,9%
Lithuanians - only 4,7% (!)
Poles in Poland - 8,6% (not much compared to East & South Slavs, but still almost twice as much as Lithuanians)

 

[arvistro]

Well the distribution of haplos does not exclude option of proto-Baltic speaking Z280, meeting I2a and M458 guys and this beautiful friendship of 3 ingredients creating proto-Slavic. So proto-Baltic population is just one of three forefathers to proto-Slavs. Deal?

 

[arvistro]

These branches split 2500 years ago (or 2500 years before Rurik's birth - I don't remember exactly which of the two).

Veeeeery distant cousins.

BTW - what do you think, was Rurik Germanic-speaking or Non-Germanic speaking? Some theories say that he was a Kven or a Finn.

And if Germanic-speaking then probably he was a Germanized guy with Non-Germanic genetic ancestry, as indicated by his haplogroup.

What is interesting is that the Rurikid dynasty had absolutely no any "typically Germanic" haplogroups.

Because apart from N1c1 (which was most numerous among descendants of Rurikids), the following haplogroups were found:

R1a L260, R1a Z92, R1a M458, R1a Z280 and I2a1.

On the other hand, no of Rurikid descendants had "typically Germanic" haplogroups such as R1a Z284, R1b U106 or I1.

The Rurikid Dynasty DNA Project was by the way led by Polish scientist - doctor Andrzej Bajor.

I've heard that they are also planning to examine the genes of the Piast Dynasty (founders of Poland).

=======================================

I believe he spoke Norse Germanic. His name is Nordic. I also believe he was from Quens, which originally were Finn-ish speaking but apparently spoke (also?) Norse when he was born. Maybe absorption of large portion non-Norse speakers in Norse community around 500-800 led to simplification of language (for example, loss of -az for masculine nominative, before 500 AD Norse people had male names in similar fashion as Lithuanians, for example, Rurik before 500 AD would be spelled Rurikaz, more like Rorikaz..).

His dynasty did not have any Germanic haplos because a) probably Quens were mostly N1C1, and b) they should in theory only have His haplo as long as wives are faithful. Apparently some of wives were not
_____
I am looking forward to Piast results. Based on current speculations they could be the R1As (I think some of Rurik's dynasty haplos were explained by some lustful Piasts visiting, no offense)
_____
As to cousin thing. I found on Rurik project statement about common ancestor 2200 years back, but back from 2014 or from Gediminas or from Rurikas? Probably 2014, because otherwise they would have to specify as Gediminas lived some good hundreds of years after Rurik. But you are right, I found other estimates around 2500 years.

They are cousins because closest thing to South Baltic are on other side of Baltic Sea - Scandinavian and Iberian. Not expected Estonian, Karelian, North Russian clades. So, there is a place for some funny speculations, as long as ancient dna comes in and solves this mystery I believe Balts camps from 0 AD should produce 80-90% z280. I can be wrong, but then research in ancient DNAs has just started and my wrongness will be proved sooner or later.

 

[arvistro]

"Swedes & Goths" according to this map lived only in Southern Sweden, except for South-Western part which was Danish.

This is so cool. Picture below is vegetation types that are here since 2500 BC. See how IE and non-IE, allegedly FU borders are nicely followed (of course with some exceptions) in both Scandinavia and Baltics Btw, I think also r1a Norwegian hotspot is West Norway, somewhere in light green forest area.

We are getting way off-topic from Poland, but I really enjoy our discussion, even if I disagree on some stuff.
Also believe me I don't hate Slavs, Poles or Russians, if I hated them I would not want proto-Balts to do anything with Slavs, but I want Slavs to be (co)created by proto-Baltic speaking community

 

[Tomenable]

I believe he spoke Norse Germanic. His name is Nordic.

The origin of name "Rurik" is disputed. "Rurik" is described only by one source, chronicler Nestor (born 1050 - died 1114).

Already Finnish 20th century historian Eero Kuussaari had a theory that it is a Finnic name. There is still a Finnic name Ruurikki today.

Eero Kuussaari of course didn't know anything about Rurik's haplogroup, because he published his theory in year 1935.

=======================================

BTW - I have a question to everyone, especially to Matbir (since he seems to be familiar with this stuff).

Can you tell me what exactly is haplogroup K-M9 (or simply K) from this study? I don't think it is ancestral K:

http://www.amsik.pl/archiwum/3_2013/3_13d.pdf

It is a study of Y-DNA haplogroups of inhabitants of Greater Poland (Wielkopolska). Sample size is 201, and 19% are "K-M9".

Maybe it is possible to check what haplorgoups are hidden under this K-M9 by using this tool from Matbir's post:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...anic-or-Slavic?p=434451&viewfull=1#post434451

YPredictor (I don't know exactly how to use it though I will try to figure it out, but maybe Matbir can help):

http://predictor.ydna.ru/

=================================

I also made a chart of regional distribution of Y-DNA haplogroups in various parts of Poland.

I used sources quoted by Matbir in his post (link) when I could find them, and data from his post when I couldn't find sources he used - but he only provided data for R1a, I1 and I2 haplogroups, so maybe he can fill in the gaps in my chart?:

http://postimg.org/image/r4b651j8p/

Where it was possible, I listed cities/regions in order from highest frequency (top) to lowest frequency (bottom) for each HG.

So for Suwałki are listed first in case of N3, because they have the highest % of this HQ (Lublin has the lowest % of it):

Wybrzeże = Polish coast
Pn. Polska = Northern Poland
Kaszuby = Kashubians (Kashubs)
Mazowsze = Mazovia
Kociewie = the Kociewiacy
Ślązacy = Polish-speaking native Upper Silesians
Kurpie = (see below)

PS: I used obsolete names for haplogroups N3 and E3b because Wiik in his 2008 study was using these names.

And I wanted to stick to what the source says.

The highest percent of N3 (N1c) haplogroup is in north-eastern Poland (Suwalki - 11,0%) and in Kurpie region (6,4%).

Kurpie region is located near the original Medieval boundary between Old Prussian tribes and Polish tribes.

The same website which has data for Ślązacy and Polski Spisz also has data for native Mazurs and Warmiaks (Poles from East Prussia) - I didn't include this in my chart but maybe I will modify it later and include Mazurs & Warmaks. I'm not sure how reliable is this data, but it also shows a higher % of N1c haplogroup than average. Which confirms assimilation of Old Prussians into Polish settlers in that region.

According to the Russian study I quoted before, average for N1c in entire Poland is almost 6% (5,8%)

According to Wiik's 2008 study this average for entire Poland is lower - just below 4% (3,7%). And this average is an average from all 8 regional samples he took (his samples from 8 cities combined - 913).

I think this just the margin of statistical error, and a matter of where a study takes samples from big (and how big samples from which region). Probably ca. 5% of this HG in Poland - as Arvistro wrote - is correct.

 

[Tomenable]

b) they should in theory only have His haplo as long as wives are faithful.

There are also other possibilities than unfaithful wifes:

1) Some branches of the dynasty were related only by maternal lineages, not paternal (so obviously Y-DNA haplogroup was lost)
2) Some branches of the dynasty were not related genetically because they were adopted sons (example: Oleg I of Cherngov)

It was for a long time assumed by some historians, that Oleg I of Chernigov was not a biological son of Sviatoslav II of Kiev.

And indeed, the Olgoviches (descendants of Oleg I of Chernigov) are R1a. So Oleg was probably adopted, as historians assumed.

Adopted or "designated heir" or "given some principality to rule over". I think there is not much difference between these three.

Anyway, all of these (adoption, unfaithful wife, only maternal ancestry, etc., etc.) can be called "non-paternity events".

 

[arvistro]

The origin of name "Rurik" is disputed. "Rurik" is described only by one source, chronicler Nestor (born 1050 - died 1114).

Already Finnish 20th century historian Eero Kuussaari had a theory that it is a Finnic name. There is still a Finnic name Ruurikki today.

Eero Kuussaari of course didn't know anything about Rurik's haplogroup, because he published his theory in year 1935.

Ruurikki is Finnish form of Rurik http://www.nordicnames.de/wiki/Ruurikki. It means nothing in Finnish. But means 'glory ruler' in Norse.
And as I recall Rurik was not the only Norse name for his early dynasty rulers. Rurik, Oleg, Igor. Also there is version of Sviatoslav, composed of the Slavic roots for "holy" and "glory", was an artificial derivation combining those of his predecessors Oleg and Rurik (they mean "holy" and "glorious" in Old Norse, respectively).

Seeing how them translated their names, if Rurik (glory ruler) had initially Finnish name it would sound something like Loistava Hallitsija (that is what google translate proposed), if his name initially was Slavic, it would be Vladislav.

 

[mihaitzateo]

R1a Z280 (including its downclade Z92) is:

Russians - 38,7%
Belarusians - 35,4%
Lithuanians - 28,7%
Poles (in Poland) - 28,5%
Western Ukrainians (from Lviv) - 25,3%
Croats - 22,0% (but some sources give a larger %)

So as you can see it is by no means a specifically Baltic subclade.

East Slavs have more of it than Balts, and Poles have the same amount as Lithuanians.

Croats are South Slavs and also have a very significant amount of it.

Slavs also have a lot of I2a haplogroup, and it is not limited just to South Slavs (as some people think):

South Slavic Croats - 39,3% (other sources including Eupedia give a smaller %, but still large one)
Western Ukrainians (from Lviv) - 24,7%
Belarusians - 18,5%
Russians - 11,9%
Lithuanians - only 4,7% (!)
Poles in Poland - 8,6% (not much compared to East & South Slavs, but still almost twice as much as Lithuanians)

Well maybe a lot of Rurik companions were bearing R1A-Z280?
What it should be searched about R1A-Z280 is the area with highest diversity.
I think this area is somewhere in Latvia or Lithuania.
Check this stunning resemblance between Old Eastern Slavic religion,where supreme deity is Perun,do you see any resemblance to :
http://www.godchecker.com/pantheon/baltic-mythology.php?deity=PERKUNAS
Or the resemblance between Veles and http://www.godchecker.com/pantheon/baltic-mythology.php?deity=VELNIAS

It rather seems that Slavs are just Balto-Slavs who changed their identity a lot more,under Iranic influence and other influence.
Since Dazbog is rather a deity taken from Iranic people.

 

[Tomenable]

Nevertheless, Oleg was an adopted son (though it is possible that he changed name when adopted).

Ruurikki is Finnish form of Rurik (...) It means nothing in Finnish. But means 'glory ruler' in Norse.

Rurik means nothing in Old Norse, because there was no such name in Norse.

You are talking about Rorik, not Rurik (with "o", not "u"). Rorik was a Norse name.

===========================

But for example this website claims that Rorik was originally a Celtic Gaelic name:

http://www.thinkbabynames.com/meaning/1/Rorik

Rorik \r(o)-rik\ as a boy's name has the meaning "red king" and is a variant of Rory (Irish, Gaelic): anglicized form of the Gaelic name Ruaidhrí, Ruarí (Irish) or Ruairidh, Ruaraidh (Scottish).

As for that Finnish historian who claimed that Rurik was a Finnic name:

Eero Kuussaari, "Suomen Suvun Tiet", 1935.

Some German historians claimed that name Rurik was from German (continental) Roderick, rather than from Norse Rorik.

====================================

Isn't there some deeper Indo-European etymology instead of just Germanic?

Old Eastern Slavic religion,where supreme deity is Perun

Perun was a Pan-Slavic (West, East & South Slavic) deity, not just an East Slavic deity.

In Polish language we still have sayings related to Perun / Piorun (in modern Polish it is piorun, not sure about Pagan times).

For example "niech ich piorun trzaśnie / strzeli" ("let piorun hit / shoot those people" - originally it was a prayer to Perun).

Perun was a god of thunderstorm (among other things) and today in Polish "piorun" means thunderbolt.

Baltic Perkunas is of course related to Slavic Perun. Both are also gods of same things (mostly thunder).

Or the resemblance between Veles

Veles is also not just East Slavic (as you claim), but Pan-Slavic Pagan deity.

Memory about Veles survives until today in folk culture.

For example in Czech foklore (Vele) and in Kashubian folklore (Velevitka).

=======================

I have a book "Mitologia Słowian" ("Slavic Mythology") by Aleksander Gieysztor, Warsaw 1982.

Probably there are also more recent works on this subject.

Major gods - like Perun or Veles - were usually common for all Slavs. Minor deities were regional.

For example this is a good website with such regional Polish-specific Pagan deities (with English translations):

Bogowiepolscy (Polishgods):

http://www.bogowiepolscy.net/galeria.html

=============================================

We have info about Polish deities from pre-Christian, Pagan times, from many sources.

Many legends, sayings, etc. survived in folklore, culture until today.

But there are also Medieval sources which described these things when they weren't yet such a distant past.

For example Łukasz from Koźmin (1370 - 1412) wrote so called "Postil" in which he wrote (in Latin):

He mentioned five deities by name (Lado, Lada, Yassa, Quia and Nia):

"Hoc deberent advertere hodie in coreis vel alibi in spectaculis nephanda loquentes, in cordibus immunda meditantes, clamantes et nominantes ydoloroum nomina, et attendere an possit referri ad Deum Patrem. Certe non. Non enim festa libere quales proch dolor celebrant ex remanenciis rituum execrabilium paganorum, quales fuerunt predecessores nostri, pervenire poterint ad aures, nisi ad ulciscendum, sicuti ascenderat clamor Sodomorum et Gomorrorum. Nam in hoc festo libere fiebant turpes denudacione et alia turpia que dicit Apostolus eciam non nominare gracia domini Dei. Tamen talia, iam auctis predicatoribus, cessantur et in multis locis cessaverunt […] "Non est aliud nomen sub celo in quo oportet non salvos fieri. Non enim salvatur in hoc nomine Lado, Yassa, Quia, Nia sed in nomine Ihesus Christus […] Non Lada, non Yassa, non Nia, que suntnomina alias ydolorum in Polonia hic cultorum, ut quedam cronice testantur ipsorum Polonorum."

Also Jan Długosz (1415 - 1480) wrote about old Pagan gods:

"In quadam Cronica recolo tempore adolescencie mee legisse fuisse ydola in Polonia, unde et iste ritus usque ad tempora nostra pervenit, nam chorea exercebantur puellule cum gladiis ac si ymmolande demonibus et non Deo disponebantur et masculi cum fustibus et gladiis armabantur et invicem findebantur…"

Łukasz from Koźmin (Koźmin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koźmin_Wielkopolski) was basing on earlier sources and chronicles, as he mentions ("ydolorum in Polonia hic cultorum, ut quedam cronice testantur ipsorum Polonorum").

 

[arvistro]

Yes, Rorik has deep Centum IE roots as a name. Rīks, Reiks is also Gothic for ruler. Tautareiks or similar was Gothic for Theodorik. In Rus context it is clear Norse origin.
_____
Perkunas comes from IE 'oak' which got identified with Thunderer. Perun is thought to be one step further, when 'per' got associated with strike/hit by Thunderer (see Latvian 'pērt').

 

[mihaitzateo]

There is no R1A1-norse,neither R1B-U106 in Russia.
Compare to Oarkney Islands,which have no N1C but plenty of R1A1-norse and R1B-U106.
Is well known Vikings raided in Oarkney Islands and even settled there.
Didn't people here noticed this very weird thing,that the Vikings raiding in Great Britain did not brought any N1C there?
How is possible?
A variant is that N1C were the conquered people from Scandinavia,Finno-Ugric people.
Iceland barely has 1% of N1C and most of Iceland people were made from Norwegian settlers.
So Rurik was Norse speaker but his people were not of Norse genetics,only their language was Norse.

 

[Tomenable]

More of Polish-specific Pagan deities (charts from the same website linked above), and sources which described them:

władza = authority / power
siła = strength
bytowanie = existence
zaświaty = the afterlife

Note that generic Slavic gods are generally not included here - only Polish-specific deities.

Maybe with some exceptions, like Piorun (who was simply Perun in local Polish spelling).

Maybe you can find some connections to religions of other peoples in this data?

 

[arvistro]

What it should be searched about R1A-Z280 is the area with highest diversity.
I think this area is somewhere in Latvia or Lithuania.

There is no reason for that because z280 did not originate in Baltic. It just used to speak proto-Balto-Slavic language, which reconstructed sound pretty much like proto-Baltic, Slavic had more sound changes. I think if you look at any list of reconstructed proto-Balto-Slavic and you speak both Baltic and Slavic language you would notice that nouns seem rather Baltic phonetically.
Balts were periphery of Balto-Slavic, thus preserved its more ancient forms. But closer to center z280 engaged in contacts with m458 and i2a to eventually evolve into Slavic.

Whether it was proto-Baltic speaking z280 who joined some other groups of people to create and start to speak new language. Or it was proto-Balto-Slavic speaking z280 who only got heavily influenced by other groups of people to evolve existing language to Slavic. This is how I see it. I may be wrong.

 

[Tomenable]

Iceland barely has 1% of N1C and most of Iceland people were made from Norwegian settlers.

When it comes to highlighted part of the quote:

Icelanders are paternally more Scandinavian and maternally more Insular Celtic. But there is significant Celtic paternal ancestry too:

Map below comes from: http://www.nature.com/hdy/journal/v95/n2/full/6800661a.html

Kalevi Wiik, 2008, gives for Iceland (Y-DNA):

43,7% R1b + 22,4% R1a + 33,1% I1a (old name, not sure how it is called now) + 0,3% N3 (old name for N1c).

But he has no detailed data about subclades.

It would be nice to know what are R1a subclades in Iceland. I've seen theories that some Slavs also settled there.

 

[Tomenable]

Rorik has deep Centum IE roots as a name.

Does Centum / Satem divide indicate how closely related are languages? I think it has even been stated in this thread that Satemization / Centumization in various languages could take place independently from each other, and sometimes more than once. This would mean that the Centum / Satem divide alone is not good for determining how closely related were languages or populations speaking them.

So maybe the name was present also in some Satem languages.

 

[mihaitzateo]

The ancient gods of Polish pagan religion have weird names.
Will search to see.
And since we talked about paternal HGs I see very few Germanic influence in Poland,so I think the more proper question would be Poland more Slavic or more Balto-Slavic?
From what I remember R1b-S21 is very few in Poland,R1A-Norse,absent,as for I1,not so much to make Poland mostly Germanic.
What R1B is in Poland,I do not know,but I think most was brought by Sarmatians.
I have seen that in extreme NW of Poland there is more R1B-S21,but that does not make Poland mostly Germanic.

 

[Tomenable]

What R1B is in Poland,I do not know,but I think most was brought by Sarmatians.

Where did you take info that Sarmatians were R1b?

Andronovo Culture - Proto-Indo-Iranians (so ancestors of Sarmatians too) were mostly R1a (even up to 90% R1a):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andronovo_culture#Ancient_DNA

Out of 10 human male remains assigned to the Andronovo horizon from the Krasnoyarsk region, 9 possessed the R1a Y-chromosome haplogroup

And either on this forum or on The Apricity I also read, that some Iranians had significant amount of G haplogroup.

But nothing about R1b at all.

IIRC (I might be wrong here, I'm writing from memory) the Tarim mummies - so Tokharian-speakers - were also mostly R1a.

So Tokharians were mostly R1a despite speaking a Centum language (at least it is assumed that Tokharian was Centum).

But I'm quite sure that there was also R1b among the Tokharians (aren't red-haired Tokharian mummies associated with R1b?).

However, north of Tokharians, in what is today Western Mongolia and the Tuva Republic of Russia, lived some Scythians.

Those Scythians were also mostly R1a but they were Satem-speakers. And some of them were blonde (like "Andronovians"):

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#pigmentation

 

[Tomenable]

I have seen that in extreme NW of Poland there is more R1B-S21

Why should there be more R1b-S21 in extreme NW of Poland, if extreme NW of Poland was repopulated after WW2 ???

=====================================

Phrygians and Proto-Greeks - they were perhaps also mostly R1a, or maybe rather 50/50 R1a + R1b ???

Celtic-speakers today (their remnants - Insular Celts) are overwhelmingly R1b. But original Celts expanded from Austria-Bohemia.

So maybe original Celts were more mixed, but later absorbed a lot of R1b becoming overwhelmingly R1b like Insular Celts are.