Where did E-V13 originate ?

[Aspurg]

Paleolithic crania from Egypt looks extremely robust. Man, their jaw/mandible is out of this world.

I assume too high ANA would make you look like too robust.

You mean Iberomaurusians? Indeed they were very robust but that is not uncommon for various archaic groups. Not sure about ANA, as ANA is some ancient indigenous North African which separated from the ancestors of Bantuids over 40000 ago. Per new study it seems proto-Bantuids then received some extremely archaic admixture, more archaic than Neanderthal. E1b1b's seem to have picked up Dzudzuana-like admixture and those two formed the IM's.

Natufians were often gracile though there were taller and robust variants.

With regards to E-L618, there were two skeletons from Cardial Neolithic, Gracile Mediterranid type but with Brachycephalic skulls. Brachycephalic Mediterranean types also occurred at Lepenski Vir. Autosomally Dalmatian Cardials were pretty close to Anatolian Barcin. There is nearby (Korčula island) Croatian Mesolithic find from 9000 ybp so just before the Cardial arrival. And it was a typical WGH closely related to Iron Gates. We know there were some southern WHG populations precisely from Crvena Stijena site.

And one Dalmatian Cardial (female) had little bit og WHG admixture, interestingly how she had various blue eyes mutations as well, but lacked the light skin mutation of the others (again typical for WHG).

What I find impressive is that Cetina culture people were robust. Almost all males were robust, some were very robust with massive features. Only 2 skulls had all necessary features for classification preserved due to abrasive nature of Tumuli burials. Female though not as robust had broad face and mandible etc. Might consider some sexual dimorphism. Anthropologist Mikić said this was some "Paleo-Mediterranean" type (so could be viewed as Med-CM etc.) but I wonder how this type came to be because in Neolithic they were gracile. Indoeuropean admixture is likely but also some local selection. If Cetina did not have some significant IE admixture it must be the latter, though I suspect they did as most of their culture was IE. Later in Iron Age we do find Gracile Med Illyrians or Gracile "Dinaroid type at Glasinac. These were alot less robust than Cetina people.

Also Djordje Jankovic claimed "Dinaric" type occurred in Cetina, this was wrong as they were Dolichocephalic. I wanted to avoid original E-V13 being Small Meds and if Cetina indeed it is then they most definitely were not Small Meds. I wonder what they spoke, if they had no significant IE admixture there must have been some heavy sexual/cultural selection for Meds to become so robust from Neolithic Gracile's. In any case this culture was operating on IE principles, kurgan burials, weapons, pastoralism etc.. J-L283 likely came from Bell Beakers so they could have brought some "Dinaric" Beaker type.
Vučedol on the other hand had tendencies connecting them with Caucasus, and this proved correct because Yamnaya did have strong CHG admixture and Vučedol stems by Y-DNA and auDNA from Yamnaya, whereas by auDNA J-L283 Posušje culture does not fit into Yamnaya but rather various Bell Beakers.

There is also one Cetina culture find from Ljubomir Hercegovina. It was generally Corded Ware burial by its features, and I don't know what the anthropological type was just he said "not Mediterranean as expected".

 

[Aspurg]

This Corded Ware element from Herzegovina per archaeologists arrived directly from the Steppe and it came to East Herzegovina from SE Romania/N.Bulgaria area. So very mobile. Maybe this Cetina anthropological type was a mixture of E-L618 Neolithics with the Corded Ware. (Alternative is BB, but they had short heads). Cremation (50 % of Cetina practiced cremation, they practiced both inhumation and cremation without some rules) came from this CWC element. I'm thinking E-CTS1273 could have moved with these to the North East and spread from there.
E-CTS1273 does have some Carpathian/C.Europe/Eastern clades that are BY3880-, that is those are all profiled BY3880- clades. Remaining is ERS1789480 (Ashkenazi from a study).
E-L540, C.Europe/N.Europe/E.Europe
E-FT7781 Ossetian cluster, shares only 1 SNP with Brazilians. I used to think Albanian Mala might be related to them, not anymore looking at Brasilian STR's.

E-Y35953>PF6784 has high Carpathian diversity, there is one Pontic Greek cluster, most likely Late Bronze Age arrival.
E-Y35953>BY15406>BY15395 Pole
E-Y35953>BY15406>BY15395>BY15410 Croat

So Pole is above the Croat, again might point this BY3880- clade is not Balkan in origin (both PF6784 and BY15406 have basal Poles, the latter not on YFull).

 

[Hawk]

You mean Iberomaurusians? Indeed they were very robust but that is not uncommon for various archaic groups. Not sure about ANA, as ANA is some ancient indigenous North African which separated from the ancestors of Bantuids over 40000 ago. Per new study it seems proto-Bantuids then received some extremely archaic admixture, more archaic than Neanderthal. E1b1b's seem to have picked up Dzudzuana-like admixture and those two formed the IM's.

Natufians were often gracile though there were taller and robust variants.

No doubt it is ANA. Their crania looks more robust than European WHG. They were taller and more robust on average than their European counterparts.

Btw, the Shum Laka paper is full of question marks, different conclusions, different graphs. The most suitable explanation is that ANA was deeper than Basal Eurasian a tree-model proposed in the Dzudzuana paper.

 

[Aspurg]

No doubt it is ANA. Their crania looks more robust than European WHG. They were taller and more robust on average than their European counterparts.

Btw, the Shum Laka paper is full of question marks, different conclusions, different graphs. The most suitable explanation is that ANA was deeper than Basal Eurasian a tree-model proposed in the Dzudzuana paper.

Yes that relates to the question of whether E is African or EA. In the last paper they just said ancestral ANA and proto-Bantu are same and proto-Bantu received some extra "ghost" admixture.


Ahh, the Ljubomir Cetina Tumuli had indeed "Corded" ware pottery but this was not what is understood as "Corded Ware" people (R1a dominated). This was arrival of Cernavoda III people who at the same time started moving around alot. These were proto-Luwians, Anatolians who carried R-PF7562. You can see that R-PF7563 has similar or higher TMRCA in the Balkans than E-V13!!

We see R-Z29758 has enormous diversity in Albania and I've been wandering what's the explanation for this.. Originally PF7563's would have been positioned in the East/Northeast part of the Balkans, namely their were the Cernavoda, Cotofeni, Ezero cultures.. And you see some of these older PF7563's found over there. It seems these Cernavoda III movements at that time reached Albania, approximately similar to Z29758's TMRCA. Sites of Piskova, Pazhok, Dukat, Shtoj..

Furthermore, over the central tomb of the Shtoj tumulus an oval stone platform of uncertain use with a stone
enclosure and a floor made from pressed soil was located, containing six clay violin shaped figurines and covered
by a mixed layer of stones and sandy soil.5 An architectural overview of the tumulus also reveals a flat hearth with
carbon traces and a substantial quantity of sherds (possibly a crematorium).6 Of special importance is the pottery
of the Cetina phase, found within the central burial of the tumulus (fig. 1c-g, i).

Likely E-V13 and especially E-CTS1273 were picked up by PF7562's and they spread with them, their area was huge, at the time these people controlled most of the Balkan and also Carpathians etc. It seems they populated the pre-Greek Greece as well.

Some authors suggested so called "Pelasgians" were the oldest stratum of Indoeuropeans on the Balkans. Actually by the spread and locations, TMRCA we might say that E-BY5022 is Philistine and one Philistine burial was R-M269. Philistine names are usually interpreted as being Anatolian-Luwian related..

These PF7562's are proto-Hittites who moved to Anatolia to form the Hittites and Luwians. There is clear archeological evidence connecting early Troy and Ezero. Interestingly I was looking at one Turkish sample of around 540 (Cinnioglu et al) and PF7562 was around 1.8 % not as much as I expected.

I looked at the autosomal profile of Varna man, ofc proto-Luwian, and their IE profile was weird it had extra amount of EHG admixture, logical as they are the ones who first separate dand represent the most ancient IE branch.. Even in the study you can see on some charts authors painted their main autosomal in different color from the others.

So I think E-V13 is quite Indoeuropean but Peleset/Anatolian speaking originally. Later they would have joined these or those groups. I guess particularly E-CTS1273 moved over Danube over 4000 years ago and with spread in all directions.

E-CTS1273 has a pretty high TMRCA of 4400 ybp, I think it could have become part of the great "Danubian group" long time ago, even before Cetina culture started expanding in full swing!! PH1246 with 4200 ybp does correspond to Cetina pretty well.

Some of ceramics occurring in Cetina culture is of Ezero origin too. Ezero was the origin and they appear in older strata of Cetina, but then archaeologist asked the question "why don't they appear in Ljubljana culture too"? Maybe because Ezero/Anatolian speaking elements created Cetina culture and these had nothing to do with Ljubljana culture (might be related to J-L283) coming from Central Europe.. Some authors often look from their local perspective that local cultures need to be related and originated only through local evolution (some Greek authors claimed IE Greeks developed in Greece without any IE migration LOL). Similarly Anthropologist Mikic looked at the change in Iron Gates population from huge Cromagnon types to Gracile Meds and presumed it was a "local evolution", which ofc we now know wasn't it was a replacement of WHG's by the EEF's. And I bet few of "robust Mediterranean" types found in Iron Gates were actually some WHG/EEF mixtures..

Now it all makes sense, why is Cetina culture described as "having little/nothing to do" with Posušje culture (where J-L283 was found), despite being neighbors.

Pre Iron Age Balkans-Danubian area was different: proto-Phrygians were there, proto-Armenians were there, before them proto-Hittites were there.. According to the scientific consensus all of these people came to Anatolia from the Balkans. Armenian language is also a Paleo-Balkan language!

I've been looking at E-Y30976. I was wondering whether this guy was Armenian or of Greek origin as he was from Istanbul, now I'd say he is definitely Armenian, with this Pole there is Tatar in a cluster, but also should be few Hungarians. it seems this clade went to Anatolia making a circle with Tatars, Pole, and Hungarian (might have been assimilated by some Steppe population). Might have spread with Anatolians or Armenians. Also Armenians have one basal E-BY5022, the same. Kurdish E-CTS1273* might fit there.. Ffew of these Hittite R-PF7562's on YFull are mostly Armenian and as I've said it's not that present in Turks (2 %) so no wonder that Hittite find from while ago wouldn't detect much IE auDNA admixture..

So I'd say E-V13 came from Anatolia (probably some southern maritime route) with EEF's and spread as Anatolian speakers few thousands years after! :grin:
I think this makes sense from every POV: archaeological, genetic, historical.. I think it does make E-V13 unique in their own way.

 

[Riverman]

@Aspurg: Don't you think that E-V13 spread to different Indo-European strains from a source close to the steppe, most likely TCC? I think it makes sense to assume some went with Anatolian, but I think the later distribution being better explained by a more complex spread from within a deeper IE source group, which was ancestral to many.

 

[Aspurg]

Indeed, already in the proto-Cetina phase there were contacts with Glina III-Schneckenberg culture from Romania/Transylvania so that is consistent with the E-CTS1273 leaving Dalmatia for Romania/Transylvania and spreading from there as the oldest CTS1273+, BY3880- clades do not seem Balkan. What was proposed bt Rafc about Cetina and derivatives Bubanj Hum III, Belotic-Bela Crkva is correct as these cultures were all connected to Schneckenberg and other similar cultures, they were all related. V13 originally spoke Luwian/Anatolian and so originally they were not Illyrian, Thracian, Greek etc. Most of the Central/Eastern Balkans was Luwian with even some presence in Greece. In LBA the only remnant were the Philistines/Peleset it seems. In South Albania there is place name Palasa derived of the old Pelastae, likely indication for some extra presence of some V13 clades in South Albania who were pushed there in LBA. And E-BY5022 seems like a best indication being most diverse around Palaistinos river, having a clade in Albania and also being diverse in Druze, Lebanon, ME (Philistines). R-PF7562 is also very diverse in S.Albania. R-FGC42003 has Lebanese, Italian LBA connections so looking like some Sea Peoples/Philistine clade. Also various other Z29758 clades in Italy.

 

[Aspurg]

@Aspurg: Don't you think that E-V13 spread to different Indo-European strains from a source close to the steppe, most likely TCC? I think it makes sense to assume some went with Anatolian, but I think the later distribution being better explained by a more complex spread from within a deeper IE source group, which was ancestral to many.

Well Anatolian group is the most archaic IE group, can't go more deeper than Anatolian if its about some differentiated IE. I don't deny they could have moved with other groups. But assuming plenty of Western Euro E-V13 are Legionaries and similar (which they were) we are left with the high Carpathain diversity for CTS1273 (and various BY3880's) and high Balkan diversity for BY3880.

Cetina culture looks to have been part of Luwian R-PF7562 spectrum and there is clear archaeological evidence for those links that is that it was the proto-Luwians who were the dominant IE element in that culture.

For example, for Z5018 we can say that its TMRCA and spread of basal clades corresponds very well to some of these cultures that came after Glina III, Bubanj Hum III such as Verbicoara, Girla Mare etc. You can practically guarantee Z5018 was around there. I suspect as Gimbutas found parallels of Philistines with some of those cultures that part were still Luwian speaking (Philistines) while the others were assimilated by the proto-Greeks. That is why we see some of those associating said cultures with proto-Greeks.

Btw I think Vučedol was either proto-Greek or had proto-Greek connections together with Seima-Turbino. And there were some Yugoslav archaeologists who connected Vučedol to proto-Greeks.

Thracians and Illyrians were Early Iron Age peoples. In fact there is no way Pannonian Illyrians and original West Balkans Illyrians were the same people genetically, and that they spoke the same language. Pannonians were not (original) Illyrians. They were Urnfield, and Pannonian languages seem to have been some Illyrian-Urnfield mixture whereas some groups such as Liburnii, Histrii spoke Urnfield language.

I think 4000 years ago 90 % + of E-V13 spoke some Luwian.

 

[Riverman]

I have little doubts about E-V13 being present among Anatolian speakers, but I think that some branches moved down from the Carpathians early, others later, like Thracians and Illyrians. But without more samples its hard to tell. Do you know when the Roman era Pannonian samples will appear?

 

[Aspurg]

I have little doubts about E-V13 being present among Anatolian speakers, but I think that some branches moved down from the Carpathians early, others later, like Thracians and Illyrians. But without more samples its hard to tell. Do you know when the Roman era Pannonian samples will appear?

Indeed some branches moved early, from Glina III-Schneckenberg to related cultures of Bubanj Hum III, Belotic Bela Crkva etc. I was just reading one Serbian archaeologist noting similarity of Belotic Bela Crkva burials to those of Schneckenberg and Cetina.

Schneckenberg contacts date to proto-Cetina phase, and CTS1273 has separated from the E-Y30977 quite a while ago, so I think they represent these links. But yes, under BY3880 we see some old branches, such as E-Y16729 seem old there (4100 ybp). Also important to bear in mind that the Scythian-Getae find from 300 BC is E-FGC44169*, there is another E-FGC44169, BY5022- in Tatars, so we do have an indication of some old presence of E-FGC44169 in the area where it was found.

Viminatium samples should appear in the few months when the study is published, but they are not "Pannonian" really, that area was primarily Moesian, also some Eastern Serbia area samples are there. We do have some Szolad late Antiquity samples from Pannonia.

Illyrian and Thracian clades should be those that are younger and more expansive such as CTS9320, L241, FGC11450...
Some of older V13 clades in the East (such as Armenian) might be actually Hittite. PF7562 is not that strong in Anatolia, under 2 %.

 

[torzio]

Well Anatolian group is the most archaic IE group, can't go more deeper than Anatolian if its about some differentiated IE. I don't deny they could have moved with other groups. But assuming plenty of Western Euro E-V13 are Legionaries and similar (which they were) we are left with the high Carpathain diversity for CTS1273 (and various BY3880's) and high Balkan diversity for BY3880.

Cetina culture looks to have been part of Luwian R-PF7562 spectrum and there is clear archaeological evidence for those links that is that it was the proto-Luwians who were the dominant IE element in that culture.

For example, for Z5018 we can say that its TMRCA and spread of basal clades corresponds very well to some of these cultures that came after Glina III, Bubanj Hum III such as Verbicoara, Girla Mare etc. You can practically guarantee Z5018 was around there. I suspect as Gimbutas found parallels of Philistines with some of those cultures that part were still Luwian speaking (Philistines) while the others were assimilated by the proto-Greeks. That is why we see some of those associating said cultures with proto-Greeks.

Btw I think Vučedol was either proto-Greek or had proto-Greek connections together with Seima-Turbino. And there were some Yugoslav archaeologists who connected Vučedol to proto-Greeks.

Thracians and Illyrians were Early Iron Age peoples. In fact there is no way Pannonian Illyrians and original West Balkans Illyrians were the same people genetically, and that they spoke the same language. Pannonians were not (original) Illyrians. They were Urnfield, and Pannonian languages seem to have been some Illyrian-Urnfield mixture whereas some groups such as Liburnii, Histrii spoke Urnfield language.

I think 4000 years ago 90 % + of E-V13 spoke some Luwian.

The only record we have of "illyrians" tribes communicating with each other is during the great Illyrian revolt against the Romans ...........these are Dalmatians with Pannonians,....paperwork clearly states that the Liburnians spoke another

 

[Riverman]

Indeed some branches moved early, from Glina III-Schneckenberg to related cultures of Bubanj Hum III, Belotic Bela Crkva etc. I was just reading one Serbian archaeologist noting similarity of Belotic Bela Crkva burials to those of Schneckenberg and Cetina.

Schneckenberg contacts date to proto-Cetina phase, and CTS1273 has separated from the E-Y30977 quite a while ago, so I think they represent these links. But yes, under BY3880 we see some old branches, such as E-Y16729 seem old there (4100 ybp). Also important to bear in mind that the Scythian-Getae find from 300 BC is E-FGC44169*, there is another E-FGC44169, BY5022- in Tatars, so we do have an indication of some old presence of E-FGC44169 in the area where it was found.

Viminatium samples should appear in the few months when the study is published, but they are not "Pannonian" really, that area was primarily Moesian, also some Eastern Serbia area samples are there. We do have some Szolad late Antiquity samples from Pannonia.

Illyrian and Thracian clades should be those that are younger and more expansive such as CTS9320, L241, FGC11450...
Some of older V13 clades in the East (such as Armenian) might be actually Hittite. PF7562 is not that strong in Anatolia, under 2 %.

Since we have almost nothing from all these cultures, its hard to tell which one carried which haplotypes in its pool. There are no real Cernavoda samples so far, and for detecting the real variation we would need large samples especially from Cernavoda and the following groups, like Coţofeni and GS. I recall all the speculations about GAC, before the data was out, even before aDNA, what people said about its relationship to CW and now we see almost nobody got it right. I think there are still a lot of surprises out there. I'm only sure about one thing, namely that E-V13 will sooner or later appear among those cultures between the Carpathians and Balkan in the post-steppe environment.

 

[Aspurg]

Since we have almost nothing from all these cultures, its hard to tell which one carried which haplotypes in its pool. There are no real Cernavoda samples so far, and for detecting the real variation we would need large samples especially from Cernavoda and the following groups, like Coţofeni and GS. I recall all the speculations about GAC, before the data was out, even before aDNA, what people said about its relationship to CW and now we see almost nobody got it right. I think there are still a lot of surprises out there. I'm only sure about one thing, namely that E-V13 will sooner or later appear among those cultures between the Carpathians and Balkan in the post-steppe environment.

Yes, no doubt we need samples. GAC Gimbutas's hypothesis about IE connection proved wrong. Though in the case of these Eastern Cultures such as Ezero, Cernavoda etc. R-PF7562 should be a far more reliable hint. One, this clade separated earlier from the R-M269 tree, 6400 TMRCA, which seems to coincide well with the fact that Anatolian languages are considered most divergent in the IE tree. And of course we see some R-PF7562's in Anatolia to represent the likely ancestors of Hittites. We also have some strong Balkan presence and diversity of PF7563 clades. It's quite clear they are old in the area. And I believe Ezero culture does have some pretty strong links to Troy. One could think of R-Z2103's as Hittites it seems PF7562 is far more logical whereas R-Z2103's were proto-Phrygians, Armenians.

There is a new Philistine inscription that was discovered
https://www.semanticscholar.org/pap...tein/a015767433b834d38066e040f8288a7fa28ee7b6


This inscription does look a bit "Slavoid".

 

[Hawk]

Since we have almost nothing from all these cultures, its hard to tell which one carried which haplotypes in its pool. There are no real Cernavoda samples so far, and for detecting the real variation we would need large samples especially from Cernavoda and the following groups, like Coţofeni and GS. I recall all the speculations about GAC, before the data was out, even before aDNA, what people said about its relationship to CW and now we see almost nobody got it right. I think there are still a lot of surprises out there. I'm only sure about one thing, namely that E-V13 will sooner or later appear among those cultures between the Carpathians and Balkan in the post-steppe environment.

I have a feeling we will see a lot of E-V13 in Early Neolithic South Balkans. The Bronze Age boom is another thing. So far, you cannot make sense of the spread you see on maps. We simply need ancient DNA.

 

[Aspurg]

I have a feeling we will see a lot of E-V13 in Early Neolithic South Balkans. The Bronze Age boom is another thing.

I don't think so. Already plenty of Eastern Balkans have been tested and they showed no E-L618 (which was expected because Cardials and the main Neolithic wave were different).

If we see some E-V13's in South Balkans those will be some dead-end clades which left no descendants. So they are pretty much irrelevant for the V13 as a whole, that is this "BA boom". But I doubt, maybe some E-L618 in some Cardial areas along their way to Dalmatian coast. But I can tell you it was the Dalmatian coast that must have been the main hub for E-L618 and it shows as we have already a find there. We will certainly get E-L618 in Hvar culture, Butmir culture, Danilo culture.. This is where you are going to get plenty of E-L618..

In short E-L618 developed for thousands of years in Dalmatia, maybe, maybe this boom came from Trypillia and that's it. What you are insinuating that the BA boom started from South Balkans is a road which leads to nowhere..

Thus far wee have a clear hint, where skulls are worshiped in Neolithic we get E-L618 because they took this cult from their Natufian ancestors. You don't have this cult anywhere else in Neolithic Europe, and you hardly get E-L618 anywhere else..

I think E-L618 made their proper home in Dalmatia, anywhere else it was just a temporary stop..

 

[Aspurg]

The earliest impressed ware sites, dating to 6400–6200 BC, are in Epirus and Corfu. Settlements then appear in Albania and Dalmatia on the eastern Adriatic coast dating to between 6100 and 5900 BC. The earliest date in Italy comes from Coppa Nevigata on the Adriatic coast of southern Italy, perhaps as early as 6000 cal B.C. Also during Su Carroppu culture in Sardinia, already in its early stages (low strata into Su Coloru cave, c. 6000 BC) early examples of cardial pottery appear.

So we should get some in Epirus, Corfu. I know Early Dalmatian Cardial was closely related to Coppa Nevigata.

One thing are these early finds, another is the proven continuous existance of these cultures. Only for the Dalmatian Cardials can be guaranteed they were unchanged until the EBA and even just before the IE arrival they still had their remnant culture called Nakovana culture which at least biologically took part in formation of the BA Cetina culture.

It's Cetina or maybe some EEF assimilated in Trypillia. There is no realistic 3rd option for BA E-V13, never has been and very unlikely there will ever be..

 

[Trojet]

Ahh, the Ljubomir Cetina Tumuli had indeed "Corded" ware pottery but this was not what is understood as "Corded Ware" people (R1a dominated). This was arrival of Cernavoda III people who at the same time started moving around alot.

Interesting. I think we might see J-L283 pop up in Cernavoda culture

Could you elaborate more about this "Ljubomir Cetina Tumuli"? Are you saying there is links with Cernavoda, and if known, what's the age and the more exact place of this Tumuli?

(Couldn't really find anything online )

 

[Aspurg]

Interesting. I think we might see J-L283 pop up in Cernavoda culture

Could you elaborate more about this "Ljubomir Cetina Tumuli"? Are you saying there is links with Cernavoda, and if known, what's the age and the more exact place of this Tumuli?

(Couldn't really find anything online )

I've been talking about this with poreklo archaeologist (with whom you've argued once regarding diversity of Albanian clades ).

I'll translate quotation.

Trebinje (tumulus XI Ljeskova Glavica) in which, aside from cyst burials, Schnur ceramics has been noted, which B. Covic connects with movements of the carriers of the Cernavoda III culture and dates in younger phase of Eneolithic. Aside from this find, on the territory of Northern Albania four more tumuli similar to this one have been recorded (Piskova, Pazhok, Dukat and tumulus VI from Shtoj near Shkodra).


this is from an English work, I'm sure there is material in Albanian on these:
the Great Tumulus of the Pazhok (fig. 1h, 1b: 6) necropolis in the Shkumbin river valley and the tumulus of Piskovë,
in the Permet region...
Furthermore, over the central tomb of the Shtoj tumulus an oval stone platform of uncertain use with a stone
enclosure and a floor made from pressed soil was located, containing six clay violin shaped figurines and covered
by a mixed layer of stones and sandy soil. An architectural overview of the tumulus also reveals a flat hearth with
carbon traces and a substantial quantity of sherds (possibly a crematorium). Of special importance is the pottery
of the Cetina phase, found within the central burial of the tumulus

So this Ljubomir burial is 100 % Cernavoda, and more properly it is some Ezero derived element as Cernavoda is pretty old. I believe this is the explanation how Albanian R-Z29758 ended up where they are with BA diversity, and obviously originally they should be related to Ezero, Cernavoda and similar cultures.. And we see some upstream diversity over there.

Also in proto-Cetina phase we have some clear connections with Glina III-Schenkeberg culture (Transylvania). Generally though archeologists have been saying that Ljulbljana culture and bell Beaker cultrue had more influence on Cetina culture. Then again as I told NikolaVuk, it could be some of "we prefer our Slovenian culture to distant Bulgarian/Romanian". You see plenty of that in Greece etc..

I've been thinking that J-L283 is this Ljubljana and BB element. But J-L283 was found in Posušje culture already and that culture had nothing to do with Cetina culture, it is assumed they were different populations, with different way of life, despite living next to each other for hundreds of years barely any contact was recorded.. I see some Albanian R-L52*, he should be BB.

So if Posušje/Dinara are J-L283 then Cetina must be something else.. I thought about connecting J-L283 with Cernavoda and these Ezero Luwian cultures too, but your finds autosomal data says he is 60 % Central Euro BB or even Unetice and 40 % Dalmatian Cardial.

Generally diversity of J-L283 suggests they came from the North, and very important for this Posušje culture is so called Litzen ware, also apparently with Northern origin.

For E-V13, Cardial Neolithic find is there, also continuous existence of other local Neolithic cultures and suggestion that the last of these biologically played part in Cetina genesis, though culturally much less. PH1246 looks like Cetina in small, E-CTS1273 doesn't. Even if Cernavoda influence was smaller than Ljubljana/BB (Ljubljana is supposedly partly or predominately BB) still CTS1273 fits into somebody who went away with these Cernavoda/Ezero nomads and spread from elsewhere.

But as you can see these Albanian (we can suppose R-PF7562) Ezero finds did have Cetina pottery there too.. Cetina is being connected also to various Central Balkan cultures such as Bubanj Hum III, Belotic Bela Crkva, also Schneckenberg through various similar features. It seems all of these might have been Luwian speakers at the time.. And these are already not related to Ljubljana/Western Balkan..

Not much is known about the origin of the culture where J-L283 was found, but for now I'd suppose some BB or Unetice (their mtdna was found there) origin. Actually in the genesis of BB I found certain dagger of type II, apparently linked with Maykop so I thought of J-L283 instantly. Just I couldn't see from the source which Maykop, as there was Steppe Maykop and Caucasian Maykopv where J-L283 was found.

I think Cernavoda had some Maykop links, not sure exactly. If you are related to that one you spoke Luwian..:grin: If you are BB then probably Illyrian was of BB.

 

[Aspurg]

B. Govedarica, archaeologist, this is why I am reluctant to connect J-L283 with Cetina, though I thought they might be related to Ljubljana

Characteristic material production of Cetina and Dinara (another name Posusje - V.Vanik J-L283 find) cultures differ stylistically and tipologically to such a degree that on this basis there isn't even the most basic minimum of common elements which would be required for connecting them in one unit. From that point of view, we have here almost certainly cultural groups with different origins.

And this is only one aspect, plenty of others such as way of life. Posusje culture people did agriculture, they built large settlements, local herdsmen. Cetina people were Thranshumant nomads, had almost no settlements, they lived in caves (as did E-L618 Neolithics :grin

Interestingly:
It is interesting that some archaic forms from the Early phase of Posusje/Dinara culture more point towards some older samples of Ljubljana type than on Cetina culture.

He says Litzen ware is related to Northern penetration, and not found even in Bosnia-Western Pannonia. This ware was very common in Posusje culture. And it was found apparently where J-L283 was found as well, thats how I got this find, it appeared in a publication about Litzen ware..

What can be said Posusje culture came after Cetina, and it seems Cetina died out and then Posusje people moved in to take those sites as well. Some Late BA sites important for genesis of Illyrians such as Varvara, Glasinac are all being connected to this Posusje culture.. That does look to me like these PH1246 are Cetina and they got swallowed.

@Trojet
About the age of those Ljubomir Ljeskova Glavica Steppe burials, I'm not sure, it seems they dated them earlier than appropriate initially, but must be some very early Cetina phase.

 

[Trojet]

Thanks for that info!

Of course, how could I forget about NikolaVuk and our debate

You keep trying to associate J-L283 with the BB element. While this is certainly possible, keep in mind that no ancient J-L283 has ever been found north of the Balkans where we have hundreds of samples. Do not dismiss J-L283 as a potential haplo among Cetina, and I think you're making too much out of this supposed 'difference' between Cetina and Posusje. There is a reason why I asked you about this link with Cernavoda. Again, pay attention to what I wrote here:

Interesting. I think we might see J-L283 pop up in Cernavoda culture

In regards to R-Z29758, this clade shows strong structure in southern Albania, so I don't think it can be linked to Cetina (though it's possible they were pushed further south by later waves). But I do agree that it may well be a Cernavoda/Ezero derived lineage..

EDIT: About Cetina, the following is taken from: https://indo-european.info/indo-europeans-uralians/VIII_9_Adriatic_province-.htm

"Proto-Cetina/Cetina, in the southern Balkans, appears as a Bell Beaker periphery connecting the West Adriatic coast with the East Adriatic area ca. 2400–2300 BC, under the influence of Central Mediterranean Bell Beakers, whose heartlands are on one hand northern Italy and Tuscany, and on the other hand Sardinia and western Sicily (Heyd 2007)"

So I don't think we can say they were exclusively or even predominantly EEF people. They were likely a mix of EEF (L618/V13), and Bronze Age arrivals (perhaps some R1b's and L283).

 

[Riverman]

We can also speculate that E might have never been that dominant in any group of Europe. The first spread was with Neolithic farmers, E was present in Iberia, in Central Europe, in the Balkans, but always beside the dominant G. What if the 2nd expansion happened in a very similar way first, rather than coming from a surviving older culture and population?
Like if a clan from TCC spread among different tribes from the steppe because of a special function or position in society, like smiths, priests or something like this. Just saying that such an expansion from within larger networks couldn't be pinned down by any archaeological culture and it would happen largely unnoticed until there are big sample sizes available. Looking at the current distribution, it looks to me like the most successful lineages of V13 males spread in different directions from one source close to the Carpathians, probably from TCC, starting roughly at the time of the steppe expansion, just being in some regions more successful on the long run than in others, even some of the former steppe elite. It might have been pure chance that it was a V13 clan from TCC which was more successful in adapting to the new culture and people coming from the steppe than others.

Isn't the wide distribution of V13 a clue to its early assimilation by steppe people? If the only root culture would have been e.g. Cetina, I think that wouldn't be enough to explain it. Not saying that we won't find a lot of V13, even important branches for the modern distribution in this culture.