Where did E-V13 originate ?

[Hawk]

We can also speculate that E might have never been that dominant in any group of Europe. The first spread was with Neolithic farmers, E was present in Iberia, in Central Europe, in the Balkans, but always beside the dominant G. What if the 2nd expansion happened in a very similar way first, rather than coming from a surviving older culture and population?
Like if a clan from TCC spread among different tribes from the steppe because of a special function or position in society, like smiths, priests or something like this. Just saying that such an expansion from within larger networks couldn't be pinned down by any archaeological culture and it would happen largely unnoticed until there are big sample sizes available. Looking at the current distribution, it looks to me like the most successful lineages of V13 males spread in different directions from one source close to the Carpathians, probably from TCC, starting roughly at the time of the steppe expansion, just being in some regions more successful on the long run than in others, even some of the former steppe elite. It might have been pure chance that it was a V13 clan from TCC which was more successful in adapting to the new culture and people coming from the steppe than others.

Isn't the wide distribution of V13 a clue to its early assimilation by steppe people? If the only root culture would have been e.g. Cetina, I think that wouldn't be enough to explain it. Not saying that we won't find a lot of V13, even important branches for the modern distribution in this culture.

Between, We should talk specifically about E-M35/E-M78 subclades here, clades which in prehistory shared common features and culture. Further than that it's pointless.

But, i agree with you. It might just be a minority Y-DNA spread early among Anatolian Farmers which latter just got a Bronze Age boom. We might get the answer it soon.

 

[Aspurg]

I think it is quite clear now.

Various proto-Cetina ceramic forms and decorations have close parallels with Glina III - Schneckenberg as noted by Govedarica.

Decades ago it was noted that the primary influence on Cetina formation was that of Ljubljana and BB elements with Eastern Ezero being secondary. But the funerary ritual is one the most important elements which determine the ethnic affinities. Proto-Cetina and Cetina funerary ritual had nothing to do with Ljubljana or Bell Beakers. Ljubljana practiced throwing the dead into abyss.

Where Cetina has close parallels in funerary ritual is Glina III - Schneckenberg. Cyst graves, tumulii covered by large quantities of stone typical for Cetina, Schneckenberg and various other cultures Belotic Bela Crkva, Bubanj Hum III..

Interestingly in proto-Cetina phase there were only inhumations, in Cetina phase also cremations appear, again mixed inhumation-cremation was typical of Schneckenberg.

I find it hard to believe Cetina was closer to Bell Beakers and original Ljubljana if their funerals had nothing to with them and had connections to these Eastern cultures.. And proto-Cetina not only has close links in ware with Schneckenberg but also in funerary ritus.

So it seems E-CTS1273 = Glina III - Schneckenberg

I think E-CTS1273 has no connection to Cetina culture spread. PH1246 looks to possess it, it should be noted Cetine culture died in Early Middle Bronze Age and left no descendants so it doesn't have to have many genetic descendants either. Posušje culture where J-L283 was found did leave plenty of archaeological descendants.

This Steppe arrival to Ljubomir which came apparently from SE Romania, just as they came there, some of those could have returned from where they came from, and take E-CTS1273 with them..

Even looking from the perspective of some Tripillia EEF being assimilated still it could have had connections with Schneckenberg. And also some of CTS1273 clades do fit nicely with some related cultures such as Bubanj Hum III etc.

@Riverman
E-V13 is very widespread true, but of this Western European presence how much of it is it related to some later migrations, Roman? It seems plenty of it.

One Serbian former admin (still at FTDNA I think): drajver/simo looked at the Spanish Visigoth E-V13 find I12031 and these are some positive SNP readings:
V13+
CTS5856+
Z16662+
Y36784/BY3331+
Y93395+

So E-Y93395 , likely some Pannonian or similar assimilated by the Visigoths. He showed autosomal affinity with him so he got interested in this find. In any case we have another profiled a-DNA E'V13 find.


So to return to my point can E-V13 be "generalised IE"? I don't think that is likely, obviously it has very limited Indo-Iranian link, nobody in India, though there are signs they were in vicinity of Western Pontic area.

aDNA of BB's hasn't found any V13, Italian V13 finds are scarce and they seem to date to later periods. As you can see some of these Western V13's are clearly new arrivals. And to indicate older presence a Western V13 must have some diversified structure which dates to pre-Roman era. Something like E-Y16721. I would say V13 doesn't have a good case for some generalized IE lineage but it does have a case for regional IE lineage like the one I propose here, spreading from the region not far from the Pontic Steppe with IE groups (at least for E-CTS1273).

 

[Aspurg]

In regards to R-Z29758, this clade shows strong structure in southern Albania, so I don't think it can be linked to Cetina (though it's possible they were pushed further south by later waves). But I do agree that it may well be a Cernavoda/Ezero derived lineage..

EDIT: About Cetina, the following is taken from: https://indo-european.info/indo-europeans-uralians/VIII_9_Adriatic_province-.htm

"Proto-Cetina/Cetina, in the southern Balkans, appears as a Bell Beaker periphery connecting the West Adriatic coast with the East Adriatic area ca. 2400–2300 BC, under the influence of Central Mediterranean Bell Beakers, whose heartlands are on one hand northern Italy and Tuscany, and on the other hand Sardinia and western Sicily (Heyd 2007)"

So I don't think we can say they were exclusively or even predominantly EEF people. They were likely a mix of EEF (L618/V13), and Bronze Age arrivals (perhaps some R1b's and L283).

I'm not sure these Albanian finds are Cetina proper. R-Z29758 might have no direct links or limited links but I do think some of these EBA finds might be related to their arrival to modern day Albania from presumably Ezero and related areas..

About Cetina indeed it couldn't have been just the EEF element, as the culture was generally IE. But read what I wrote above I do think the role of Eastern Ezero related cultures is severely underestimated in it's genesis. That's not even if, you can't have people practicing clearly Eastern rituals being more ethnically related to NW BB's. Cetina seems as some put it "syncretic" that is combining some different IE elements.

Actually if Cetina spoke some Luwian or related it's no wonder they would have had little contacts with Posušje if these spoke proto-Illyrian. These languages separated then over 2000 years before.

 

[Riverman]

Between, We should talk specifically about E-M35/E-M78 subclades here, clades which in prehistory shared common features and culture. Further than that it's pointless.

But, i agree with you. It might just be a minority Y-DNA spread early among Anatolian Farmers which latter just got a Bronze Age boom. We might get the answer it soon.

Yes, in the Near East and probably related to "Basal Eurasian". But after the Natufians they became a minority in the Anatolian farmer population, which expanded with both LBK and Cardial. So E must have been fairly widespread in Europe in Neolithic times, but at a lower frequency than G and later I2 farmer lineages. But it was there, all over the farming continent and it was present among TCC.

Even looking from the perspective of some Tripillia EEF being assimilated still it could have had connections with Schneckenberg.

Absolutely. Cultures like Cernavoda, Coţofeni and GS existed after the steppe rolled over most of the TCC. So its exactly that point in time when I would expect E-V13 to become part of the steppe movement.

Spanish Visigoth E-V13

The Visigoths assimilated local people early on, the Lombards kept a subordinate local people of Pannonian descent. So yes, those E-V13 were mostly non-Germanic Romans, Dacians and Sarmatians I'd say, of which some made it into the ranks of the free warrior class even. Sooner among Visigoths, later among Lombards.

More interesting to me is the distribution of V13 among Eastern Slavic people and its widespread presence far to the East, which seems to predate to a large extend later gene flow from more South Western regions. The Indo-Iranians are a case on their own, but even many clearly steppe related R1b clades are not present among them, yet nobody would say that's an argument against them being present among early IE. If you think about it, many people speak about the "Yamnaya expansion", yet the main male lineages of the Yamnaya in the strict definition play almost no role in Europe frequency wise. Other lineages of R1b and R1a took their place.

But such frequency changes notwithstanding, I would say too that V13 spread mainly among the Western, especially the Central (Central Europe, especially from Alps to Carpathians) and Southern (Balkan and from there to Anatolia and beyond) regions.

 

[torzio]

Thanks for that info!

Of course, how could I forget about NikolaVuk and our debate

You keep trying to associate J-L283 with the BB element. While this is certainly possible, keep in mind that no ancient J-L283 has ever been found north of the Balkans where we have hundreds of samples. Do not dismiss J-L283 as a potential haplo among Cetina, and I think you're making too much out of this supposed 'difference' between Cetina and Posusje. There is a reason why I asked you about this link with Cernavoda. Again, pay attention to what I wrote here:




In regards to R-Z29758, this clade shows strong structure in southern Albania, so I don't think it can be linked to Cetina (though it's possible they were pushed further south by later waves). But I do agree that it may well be a Cernavoda/Ezero derived lineage..

EDIT: About Cetina, the following is taken from: https://indo-european.info/indo-europeans-uralians/VIII_9_Adriatic_province-.htm

"Proto-Cetina/Cetina, in the southern Balkans, appears as a Bell Beaker periphery connecting the West Adriatic coast with the East Adriatic area ca. 2400–2300 BC, under the influence of Central Mediterranean Bell Beakers, whose heartlands are on one hand northern Italy and Tuscany, and on the other hand Sardinia and western Sicily (Heyd 2007)"

So I don't think we can say they were exclusively or even predominantly EEF people. They were likely a mix of EEF (L618/V13), and Bronze Age arrivals (perhaps some R1b's and L283).

just a note , that your link mentions Castellieri

these are exclusively in istria and slovenia
https://www.istrianet.org/istria/archeology/castellieri/hillforts-istria-slovenia.htm

 

[kingjohn]

Between, We should talk specifically about E-M35/E-M78 subclades here, clades which in prehistory shared common features and culture. Further than that it's pointless.

But, i agree with you. It might just be a minority Y-DNA spread early among Anatolian Farmers which latter just got a Bronze Age boom. We might get the answer it soon.

a true boom

we see the great grandfather e-v68 in 2200 bc sardinia alghero

https://i.imgur.com/y4qSEy2.png

source:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41559-020-1102-0

 

[Aspurg]

When Cetina Ljeskova Glavica Steppe Eastern tumuli are mentioned similar tumuli from Albania are also mentioned. One of them Pazhok, Albania where decorative elements are similar to younger phase of Glina III.

As there was this Ljubljana culture as well which had its strongholds on the Adriatic parallel with Cetina seems these were some J-L283 movements to Albania with the classic Ljubljana culture.

Also Govedarica found some archaic parallels in Posusje with Ljubljana culture, not Cetina. Some say Litzen ware originates in Eastern Alps and that the final phase of Ljubljana culture is Litzen phase (Gabrovec).

Only one part of Ljubljana culture played part in Cetina culture that is so called Middle Adriatic Ljubljana, these had strong local EEF elements likely mixed with J-L283 and some R-L51. Then with some extra BB influence and strong Steppe Glina III influence forms the Cetina culture. And E-CTS1273 goes away with these Glina III people (who are very mobile). This is very logical and makes sense from all angles.

Regarding Tripillia, E-V13 could come from there but really for many years we have this Cardial Spanish V13+ find. Some people I know expected V13 in Dalmatia and in Cardials only, and we did get L618+ find there expectedly. Though one E-M78 was found in Tripillia it was ofc dominated by G2a. It does seem unlikely that we have E-L618 find and BA Cetina culture developing in the same area, PH1246 having such diversity in the area and that V13 is not related to Cetina having BA boom. CTS1273 does not look Cetina at all, and now there is the logical explanation from an archaeological POV because E-CTS1273 is Glina III - Schenkenberg..

 

[Aspurg]

More interesting to me is the distribution of V13 among Eastern Slavic people and its widespread presence far to the East, which seems to predate to a large extend later gene flow from more South Western regions. The Indo-Iranians are a case on their own, but even many clearly steppe related R1b clades are not present among them, yet nobody would say that's an argument against them being present among early IE. If you think about it, many people speak about the "Yamnaya expansion", yet the main male lineages of the Yamnaya in the strict definition play almost no role in Europe frequency wise. Other lineages of R1b and R1a took their place.

But such frequency changes notwithstanding, I would say too that V13 spread mainly among the Western, especially the Central (Central Europe, especially from Alps to Carpathians) and Southern (Balkan and from there to Anatolia and beyond) regions.

There is some East Slavic presence and more importantly diversity. And even in Iranians. Ossetians have a cluster that is CTS1273+, BY3880-, and two most distant people in this cluster are 9/37 so likely 2000 years range. 1500 very minimum. Also Ossetians have a CTS9320* clade. As these descend of Steppe Alans it is an indication some of these clades were originally positioned in the vicinity of the Pontic Steppe.. Kurds also have some CTS1273* which isn't profiled yet just that he is negative to all major clades under E-CTS1273.

Generally many people have always been opposed to V13 having some IE links, taking some usual "non-IE speaking slaves" route. Such as this old theme lol
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29473-E-V13-slavery-in-the-Balkans

But basal diversity of V13 does suggest IE links. And even taking "out of Western Balkans" initial expansion there is clearly both archaeological and genetic evidence to explain why E-CTS1273 does look IE and how its whereabouts can be explained. Especially this GS culture looks interesting in various other ways too.

Also some of these important regions are heavily undertested. Though Romanians have lot of E-V13's which came from the South they have large population and probably as many local clades there, many of which cannot be classified by STR's. Also generally Carpatho-Eastern V13 are as well profiled as many Balkan regions. Generally also you have great many Westerners because they test more often.

 

[Hawk]

Tested bones will speak itself, and tell their story.

But, considering that Cyprus has ~20% of E-V13 i highly doubt it's origin is further north than Central Balkans.

 

[Aspurg]

Tested bones will speak itself, and tell their story.

But, considering that Cyprus has ~20% of E-V13 i highly doubt it's origin is further north than Central Balkans.

You're a pretty much a helpless cause in your desire to be some slave farmer.. Indeed there is plenty of V13 in Cyprus, not well profiled but it seems L241 might be strong. Has it occurred to you that these people brought the Greek language as they clearly migrated to there? likely Dorian Iron Age arrivals...

Well I might have some pretty bad news for you..
There is clear both genetic and archaeological evidence for Glina III connection be it Cetina route or even Tripilia route.
And looking at some data it seems these were not Cernavoda Luwian people... It's weird reading about some of these burials in my native language "jamna" burials, so I thought wait why would Ezero PF7562 burials be called those famed "jamna/yamna".. Some older Z2103 like KMS67 for example found in Greece and in Yamnaya..

la période du complexe Horodiştea-Folteşti, respectivemant après la période de transition, les premières pénétrations des tribus yamnaya correspondent au début des cultures Glina III-Schneckenberg et Monteoru

These Herzegovina Cetina Ljeskova Glavica Steppe burials were actually "jamna"/pit graves with Red Ochre.. Sounds familiar? So rather not PF7562 but possibly R-KMS67 pre-Greeks rather?... Well fits much more considering E-V13 % in Greece as you duly noted..

It's not anything dissimilar to what Rafc proposed in his work.. Cetina proto-Greek. Cetina ware was Minyan-oid, Bubanj Hum III ware Minyan, in fact I think there some first Minyan forms occur.. But some Greek archaeologists said no, those aren't Minyan cause IE Greeks are native to Greece they never migrated to Greece...

As your 3851111 "E-V13 Etruscan Pelasgian slaves" boss here told Dimitrios "E-V13 has nothing to do with the Catacomb culture?" I don't think so...

 

[Aspurg]

Don't underestimate Cetina itself, its ware was Minyanoid regardless whether is was Minyan proper or not..

Grey Minyan All the pottery from Pelikata which was identified as MBA is akin to Grey Minyan ware. In addition there were four or five fragments of this ware from Polis, and four rim-sherds from Tris Langades. Not all this pottery is true Grey Minyan.


There are six sherds from kantharoi from Pelikata (areas IV and VI), five of which bear incised spirals under the handles.59 This pottery, which was formerly thought to be a variety of MH Minyan, was recently studied by J. Rutter who identified it as a distinct ware characterized by its fine incised or impressed decoration. It occurs in Lerna IV (particularly phases A and B) and is therefore early EH III, and on other sites of the Argolid (Korakou, Zygouries, Mycenae, Prosymna, Tiryns and Asea). Rutter also identified this ware in early EH III Olympia (New Museum and Altis), where it appears to have preceded the introduction of pattern-painted pottery.60 He suggested that it originated in Boiotia and found its way to Olympia with immigrants from central Greece. He included the sherds from Pelikata in his analysis.61 It would indeed be difficult to dissociate the Olympia pottery from that of Pelikata; there are close similarities between the kantharos shapes and the spirals on the pottery of the two sites. Moreover this pottery was found in the proximity of pithos burials at both sites. However, as regards the origins of the Pelikata pottery (and most likely of the Olympia pottery too), an alternative hypothesis to Rutter's, namely that the ware originated in the 'Cetina culture' of the north-western Balkans, is more convincing. Maran, who put forward this hypothesis,62 found parallels for the technique, patterns and shapes of the finely incised or impressed ware of the Greek mainland in pottery from the Dalmatian coast and the hinterlands of the former Yugoslavia.

 

[Riverman]

Tested bones will speak itself, and tell their story.

But, considering that Cyprus has ~20% of E-V13 i highly doubt it's origin is further north than Central Balkans.

I agree with the first, but disagree with the 2nd sentence. Remember what people thought about R1b based on its modern distribution? Haplogroup E is different insofar as it might have been present in the Eastern Mediterranean first, moved up and some clades (V13 in particular) moved then back again to the South East and even beyond to the Near East. But looking at the migration paths of other haplogroups, that wouldn't be something extraordinary. On the long run many lineages run in circles. R1 came from the East, moved to the West and moved back again.

@Aspurg: Actually some former TCC clans could have started as some subordinate or even slave like people, who knows. But like with Visigoths and Lombards, at times there were possibilities for social rising. While the earliest Lombard burials of locals were separated like different castes, there are later ones with rich inventory and some made it to the higher ranks, established new family dynasties of mostly mixed character. I don't necessarily think that's how the story was for V13, there are so many options, like a special ability a clan had or social role they played (like smiths), but its possible. If we compare the situation with historically known events, those which were subjugated first could rise up again as long as they survived in a solid position.

The real argument I was making is that however they entered the post steppe culture Bronze Age world, they did it very early, most likely directly when the steppe rolled over TCC and before many expansions in all directions happend from the Western steppe/Carpathian region. When they moved South and West, they must have been in an established social position within the new framework to achieve the Bronze Age and Iron Age expansions observable.

 

[LeoJ]

The real argument I was making is that however they entered the post steppe culture Bronze Age world, they did it very early, most likely directly when the steppe rolled over TCC and before many expansions in all directions happend from the Western steppe/Carpathian region. When they moved South and West, they must have been in an established social position within the new framework to achieve the Bronze Age and Iron Age expansions observable.

Sorry folks, what means TCC, BB, ANA, GS, GAC, CW, EEF, LBK, SAA, MENA/AA, WHG, ? Is any dictionary available here ?

 

[Aspurg]

@Aspurg: Actually some former TCC clans could have started as some subordinate or even slave like people, who knows. But like with Visigoths and Lombards, at times there were possibilities for social rising. While the earliest Lombard burials of locals were separated like different castes, there are later ones with rich inventory and some made it to the higher ranks, established new family dynasties of mostly mixed character. I don't necessarily think that's how the story was for V13, there are so many options, like a special ability a clan had or social role they played (like smiths), but its possible. If we compare the situation with historically known events, those which were subjugated first could rise up again as long as they survived in a solid position.

The real argument I was making is that however they entered the post steppe culture Bronze Age world, they did it very early, most likely directly when the steppe rolled over TCC and before many expansions in all directions happend from the Western steppe/Carpathian region. When they moved South and West, they must have been in an established social position within the new framework to achieve the Bronze Age and Iron Age expansions observable.

Yes many options are possible, V13 could have started low, but the amount of clades present when it started expanding rather suggests some higher status.

Looking from the proto-Cetina perspective it seems Yamnaya element gave some very crucial elements to it: funerary ritual, various influences in pottery and it seems they also managed to impose similar funerary ritual upon Ljubljana culture (who originally did not use tumulii). I believe Cetina spoke Yamnaya language and that is why partly they had no contacts with J-L283 culture, their languages had separated already then 2000 years ago. Although TCC option is possible Cetina option has a whole range of evidence to back it up. aDNA (Cardial find), proven continuation of Neolithic groups until the Chalcolitic age, proven participation in Middle Adriatic type of Ljubljana (to distinguish from other Ljubljana variants) culture and proven Yamnaya influence which formed the Cetina culture. Diversity of some basal clades where PH1246 shows Cetina distribution and CTS1273 does not. It seems Yamnaya people took E-CTS1273 very far away. So no wonder one gets Ossetian CTS1273, BY3880- clade (which is old in Ossetians).

Ofc there is that E-M78 find in TCC as a reserve always. Also to note it seems at that time a series of Yamnaya invasions took place. Glina III seems to have been a group which descended of the Yamnaya proper and not related to Catacomb. It is interesting to note they had influence in Hungarian areas as well.

Incidentally at the same time occured a Cetina "assault" on Greece!
The Early Helladic II period came to an end at Lerna with the destruction of the "House of the Tiles", a corridor house. The nature of the destruction of EHII sites was at first attributed to an invasion of Greeks and/or Indo-Europeans during the Early Helladic III period c.2200–c.2000 BC (or EHIII) however, this is no longer maintained given the lack of uniformity in the destruction of EHII sites and the presence of EHII–EHIII/MH continuity in settlements such as Lithares, Phlius, Manika, etc

This was done by Cetina culture. Cetina pottery was found there, so I am skeptical towards these "no outside invasion views" here because Cetina was clearly intrusive here per many experts. House of Tiles likely belonged to a Luwian speaking population. These Yamnaya could have caused the end of Luwian Ezero culture as well.

You see at YFull E-Y37092* Greek from Cyclades (they are the same person). There is also one FTDNA Greek Y37092+ from Peloponnesus unrelated to this one but without BigY. For this reason also E-Y37092 fits well into Cetina. (other than 3 West Balkan clades, Italian clade - Cetina had influence there; there is one Macedonian BY14150, and also one cluster of BY14150 in Carpathians not at Yfull yet).

 

[Riverman]

Sorry folks, what means TCC, BB, ANA, GS, GAC, CW, EEF, LBK, SAA, MENA/AA, WHG, ? Is any dictionary available here ?

You can find all the abbreviations online, but I don't know of a resource to use. TCC = Cucuteni–Trypillia culture, GS = Glina-Schneckenberg culture.

 

[LeoJ]

You can find all the abbreviations online, but I don't know of a resource to use. TCC = Cucuteni–Trypillia culture, GS = Glina-Schneckenberg culture.

Thanks. But most don't have a proper online meaning (EEF, for example). Peoples here seems only want another 2 or 3 peoples to understand what they abbreviate.

 

[Aspurg]

Thanks. But most don't have a proper online meaning (EEF, for example). Peoples here seems only want another 2 or 3 peoples to understand what they abbreviate.

Why don't you do a test? You might be some Romanian basal result I am looking for.. Thus far only 3 Romanian E-V13 BigY/NGS. One has likely Getae origin and his closest relation is Ukraine dating back to LBA, other is this L241>A7065, also some Ukrainian in early medieval though this clade exists in the Balkans (Albanian, Miyak from Macedonia at Serbian project) and we don't know their distance. And the third is the one from here (Dante) who is E-Z25461*. Sure among Romanians many have recent connections with the Balkans and Hungary/Ukraine also but most of unprofiled E-V13 from there cannot be classified so likely various isolated clades there.

Anyway I think I have sufficient evidence to almost bury the (mostly) V13 haters (and V13- themselves ofc) 15 year old "Pelasgian" thesis once and for all, hopefully it will be done in the future 100 %. Ossetians from a clade with the Turkish Jew E-FT7781, they have TRMCA of 600 ybp, but they are 1/37 and 7/111, the TMRCA of Ossetians who are 8/37 and 9/37 with these should be much higher. I predicted conservatively 1500 years at least, but it could be 2500+, I'd say 2000 at least likely.

Talking about Illyrians.. the Illyrian swamp has already far too many other hg crocodiles.. and I prefer my own swamp.. Though Urnfield Illyrians look likely for some younger expansive V13 groups..

 

[exercitus]

Well after the final results concerning the 30% of samples belonging to hg E-v13 in Roman Viminacium and the 25% hg belonging to E-v13 in Timacum minus, i guess that the "Illyrian swamp" will have much less aggresive crocodiles, the Albanians are overwhelmingly thrilled about this fact (logically!), personally i am a 'outsider' but i sincerely want to know who were those 'Moesians' !!

 

[Riverman]

Thanks. But most don't have a proper online meaning (EEF, for example). Peoples here seems only want another 2 or 3 peoples to understand what they abbreviate.

EEF is a common term for many people already and you can find it online as well. Actually there is even a Wikipedia article about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_European_Farmers

The real problem is that these terms are fairly long, if you write them once, its ok, but if you have a text in which the term has to be used 4-5 times, an abbreviation is the usual and practical way. And if people don't read about those cultures and people, at least the basics, the terms, full or abbreviations, won't help anyway, because you need to get a sense of their meaning, which cultures existed where for how long and especially their relative position. E.g. TCC is a pre-steppe culture which was in very close contact with the steppe people and in a way was the barrier and communication path to the West at the same time for the steppe. So almost all early expansions from the steppe had close ties with TCC and moved through their territory, sometimes getting influenced one way or another, and if its just about picking up some women on the way while burning everything down, which still means genetic and cultural transfer of importance taking place.

Romania is a very important place for that story, with the Carpathians being in an absolutely central position. What do you think why so few Romanians got tested so far? What we really need is getting more people tested, especially from places like Romania.

 

[LeoJ]

Romania is a very important place for that story, with the Carpathians being in an absolutely central position. What do you think why so few Romanians got tested so far? What we really need is getting more people tested, especially from places like Romania.

I think so. The clue of almost all hg problems resides in the carpathian basin and surroundings, so in Romania position. Here is the mother of all mixtures between cultures, peoples, migration routes; the melting pot, no doubt at all. Also here is such a low interest in peoples get tested. The real inconvenient reason is the natural highly materialistic conception of the people. Why to throw away 100 Euro's and get a test ? For what use ? And coupled with the low standard of living as well. But I have the same belief that romanians MUST to be tested for solving the big picture. I wanted some time ago to test myself but localy only the https://www.myheritage.ro is doing it, and I don't know on what level deep goes into the hg's. They don't reply to my emails asking for that. Btw, what do you recommend me the most complex one for ?