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Thread: Autosomal analysis of Yamna, Corded Ware and Bell Beaker samples

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.

    Post Autosomal analysis of Yamna, Corded Ware and Bell Beaker samples

    Here is a summary of my observations posted in this thread regarding the autosomal analysis of the Mesolithic and Bronze Age samples from Haak et al 2015.

    Eurogenes K15 analysis

    The K15 admixtures for all the Yamna, Corded Ware and Bell Beaker samples can be found in this spreadsheet.

    As I predicted no Red Sea admixture in the Yamna (nor Corded Ware) samples, and only traces (<1%) in the German Bell Beaker ones. I have linked this admixture to haplogroup E1b1b and T.

    The K15 doesn't have the Gedrosian, but the South Asian is a bit similar and is quite high in Yamna samples (6-7%) but progressively decreases to 3% in Corded Ware and 0 to 3% in German Bell Beakers. It doesn't necessarily mean that R1b people came from South Asia, but just that modern South Asians carry a similar admixture through haplogroup R1a and R2. South Asian was already found in the Mal'ta boy (hg R*) from Siberia.

    Likewise, the relatively high Amerindian admixture in the Karelia and Samara samples (16% and 12%) stems from the phylogenetic link between haplogroups Q and R. This admixture progressively decreases to 4-5% in Yamna, 1.5-3.5% in Corded Ware, and 1-3% in Bell Beakers.

    The Eastern European admixture is highest in the Mesolithic Karelia and Samara samples (40%), then drops to 25-33% in Yamna, 14-23% in Corded Ware, and 5-18% in German Bell Beakers. This admixture is linked more specifically to haplogroup R1 (EHG).

    The West European admixture of Dodecad is divided in North Sea and Atlantic in K15. It is really interesting to see that the Karelia, Samara, Yamna and Corded Ware samples had between 18% and 30% of North Sea (average 25%), but only the Corded Ware had significant levels of Atlantic admixture (20% to 27% except one sample at 8%). Yamna ranged from 0% to 9.7% of Atlantic. German Bell Beaker samples have between 21% and 33%. So it looks like the North Sea admixture is associated with R1b Indo-Europeans, while the Atlantic one could be more widely Mesolithic European.

    The East and West Mediterranean admixtures were both at 0% in all samples except Bell Beakers. This is just like the Red Sea admixture. That confirms that the Mediterranean and Red Sea admixtures are both associated with Neolithic farmers, but not Proto-Indo-Europeans. This also proves that the German Bell Beaker samples had already mixed to a considerable extent with Neolithic Europeans.

    In contrast, the West Asian admixture was completely absent from Mesolithic HG from Karelia and Samara, but high in Yamna samples (15% to 22.5%), then also decreases progressively. This is the best proof that R1b-M269 people had partial ancestry from the Caucasus/Kurdistan region, which older R1b from Eastern Europe didn't have. It confirms my theory that some R1b people settled in West Asia in the late Palaeolithic, then domesticated cattle around northern Mesopotamia (Assyria/Kurdistan), then moved back across the Caucasus to use the vast expanse of grassland for their cattle. During the few millennia they stayed in West Asia they had married women from neighbouring tribes and acquired West Asian admixture. This happened before Levantine cereal farmers (G2a) moved in the region, or at least before they mixed with R1b people in West Asia, which explains why Yamna people do not have any Mediterranean admixture. Their ENF is purely West Asian (linked to hg J2 rather than G2a, E1b1b). This also means that it is not impossible that a minority of J2 people (J2b2, and maybe also some J2a) were part of the Yamna population. I proposed this several years ago, although I couldn't decide whether J2b came from the Balkans to the steppe, or from West Asia. Now it appears it is from West Asia.

    The Baltic admixture doesn't show big variations between Mesolithic (18%), Yamna (10-16%), Corded Ware (12-20%) and Bell Beaker (6-18%) samples. It is the only stable component. It might be linked to the ubiquitous mtDNA U5 (and Y-haplogroup I), found in all Mesolithic Europeans and absorbed by Neolithic farmers too. Nowadays U5 is most common in the Baltic region. I would think that this admixture was named Baltic because U5 genes survived best in this region, not because the Baltic was the source region (which it certainly wasn't since northern Europe was under ice until the end of the Würm glaciation 10,000 years ago).


    How close are modern Saami to Mesolithic samples ?

    I checked the population averages for K15 and the Saami of Finland also lack East Med, West Med, Red Sea, West Asian and South Asian, like Karelia and Samara. However they differ in a big way in that the Saami have 12% of Atlantic, where the Mesolithic Karelia and Samara had 0%. Motala12 (Mesolithic Sweden) also had the Atlantic admixture though.

    North Sea
    Atlantic
    Baltic
    Eastern_Euro
    Finnish Saami 17.7 12.2 20.1 27.0
    Mesolithic Karelia 23.7 0.1 18.9 40.4
    Mesolithic Samara 25.5 0 17.7 41.7
    Mesolithic Sweden 34.3 10.1 26.9 27.5

    Interestingly Mesolithic R1a and R1b from Russia both have more 'North Sea' than modern Saami, even though Mesolithic Scandinavians had the most 'North Sea' (about 33%). If percentages don't seem to add up, it's because the Saami have also 20% of Siberian admixture. If we take that out, we get:


    North Sea
    Atlantic
    Baltic
    Eastern_Euro
    Pre-Uralic Saami 22.1 15.3 25.1 33.8

    The Atlantic admixture might have come from a Mesolithic migration from Iberia, perhaps the one that brought mt-haplogroup V.


    Dodecad admixtures


    Genetiker ran the samples in various Dodecad calculators. Here are the results for Karelia, Samara, Yamna, Corded Ware and Bell Beaker samples (actually just one of each, not an average).

    The results for the Gedrosian admixture (K12b) are:

    Sample
    Gedrosian admixture
    Mesolithic Karelia 6.05
    Mesolithic Samara 12.98
    Yamna 26.29
    Corded Ware 21.94
    German Bell Beaker 9.62

    This is just what I expected for Yamna. I am a bit perplexed over the two Mesolithic samples through. I shows that the Gedrosian admixture already existed in basal R1a and R1b with no West Asian admixture. That points to a Palaeolithic R1* origin of some of the Gedrosian. However, since Yamna and Corded Ware people have much more of it, it means that some Gedrosian also came from West Asia. That would mean that Gedrosian is not a pure admixture, but a compound, most likely of West Asian, South Asian, and perhaps also what K15 reports as Amerindian, which would be a sort of ANE. That explains why Gedrosia and ANE do not match at all in regions like Northeast Europe, which have a lot of ANE, but little Gedrosian.

    Here is where the Gedrosian admixture is found today.



    Dodecad K12 analysis

    Here is a comparison of the Dodecad K12 (aka dv3) frequencies - the ones I used most for the autosomal maps on this site.


    Admixture
    Karelia
    Samara Yamna Corded Ware
    Bell Beaker
    West European 50.02% 52.07% 49.08% 48.97% 61.53%
    East European 33.82% 30.85% 20.88% 21.05% 8.94%
    Mediterranean 0% 0% 0.47% 9.04% 19.21%
    West Asian 0% 0% 17.42% 15.65% 2.61%
    Southwest Asian 0% 0% 0% 0.02% 5.29%
    South Asian 3.48% 8.75% 8.42% 5.27% 0.01%
    Southeast Asian 0% 0.05% 0% 0% 0%
    Northeast Asian 12.68% 8.27% 3.74% 0% 0%
    Northwest African
    0% 0% 0% 0% 0%
    East African
    0% 0% 0% 0% 0%
    Neo African
    0% 0% 0% 0% 0.69%


    First of all, it looks like the Amerindian admixture from K15 becomes Northeast Asian in dv3. I assumed that this admixture was a shared component with haplogroup Q, since Q and R evolved from a same Siberian ancestor. Nevertheless, I can't explain why modern West Europeans and even Bell Beaker samples completely lack that admixture if it was present in all R1a and R1b population, including Yamna and Corded Ware. If modern Northwest Europeans inherited about half of their genes from Yamna people, then they should at least have 1 or 2% of Northeast Asian, but it is closer to 0.1%. One explanation is that this Amerindian or Northeast Asian admixture wasn't part of the Mesolithic R1a and R1b gene pool, and that it is only found in the Volga region and Karelia because R1a and R1b people intermarried with Siberian people (Proto-Uralic or pre-Uralic). The R1b people from the Black Sea region, who moved to the Balkans then up to the Danube to Germany (Bell Beaker, then Unetice) almost certainly lacked that Amerindian/Siberian/Northeast Asian admixture. There is no other way to explain its sudden drop to 0% in the Bell Beaker R1b.

    What is also surprising is how different the Bell Beaker sample is from the Yamna and Corded Ware. It looks like over half of the Bell Beaker genes came from the Neolithic population of Germany, particularly high in Mediterranean (linked to G2a) and Southwest Asian (linked to J1 and T1a), but comprising also Mesolithic genes (hg I1 and I2, or mtDNA U4 and U5) reported as West European.

    Another remarkable thing is that Yamna and Corded Ware people both had 50% of West European admixture, and only 20% of East European. I expected that for R1b Yamna Indo-Europeans, since they brought their genes from the steppe to Western Europe.



    It is less clear why the R1a population of the Corded Ware wasn't closer to the modern Balto-Slavic R1a people. It suggests that Balto-Slavic people do not descend mostly from the Corded Ware, but rather from other cultures further north like the Fatyanovo–Balanovo culture. Although archaeologically it looks like an eastern extension of th Corded Ware, there may only have been a minority of Corded Ware R1a-M458 moving into an essentially R1a-Z280 + I2a1 territory. The Corded Ware itself would have been created by a movement of R1b-L23 people into R1a-M458 territory. Therefore Fatyanovo–Balanovo may have been mainly R1a-Z280 and I2a1 with substantial minorities of R1a-M458 and R1b-L23 from Corded Ware.

    I always said that R1b Yamna people were pushed out of the Pontic Steppe by R1a people from the north during the Catacomb culture. These R1a people would have come from the Fatyanovo–Balanovo culture. We only have mtDNA samples from the Catacomb culture, but they are a radical shift from Yamna and Corded Ware samples. Haplogroup U4 jumps from 5% in Yamna and CW to 25% in Catacomb, which I believe is a sign of the arrival of a mostly R1a population with more East European admixture. Catacomb samples are characteristic by their absence of mt-haplogroup K, T, W and X, all West Asian haplogroups that would have come from the South Caucasus/Kurdistan. I expect that these Catacomb samples will lack West Asian admixture just like the Mesolithic Karelia and Samara HG. On the other hand they have 10% of mtDNA C4, which is surely the source of the Amerindian/Siberian admixture in Mesolithic Karelia and Samara.

    This is where the East European admixture is found today.



    So even Karelia and the Samara region of the Volga are not in the core, but in the 40-50% zone. However the modern frequency in these regions is mostly the result of Slavic Russians moving into the region and mixing with local Uralic people. The Mesolithic samples had only 31% and 34% of East European, about 10-15% less than today.
    Last edited by Maciamo; 19-01-17 at 23:04.
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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    The Mesolithic samples had only 31% and 34% of East European, about 10-15% less than today.
    One must also not forget that both, West-Euro and East-Euro are modern components, which means they must have been less differentiated back then. West-Euro in particular is hybrid today due to additional EEF (or Atlantic), that's why ancient russian samples can principally not exceed modern West-Euro levels. Bell-Beakers are high in it because they have more med admixture.
    Atlantic itself must be a hybrid component too, probably a unique mix of certain WHG and EEF. Atlantic peaks in Basques, who are ~2/3 EEF + ~1/3 WHG, and it stretches along the mediterranean being significant still in Cyprus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    One must also not forget that both, West-Euro and East-Euro are modern components, which means they must have been less differentiated back then. West-Euro in particular is hybrid today due to additional EEF (or Atlantic), that's why ancient russian samples can principally not exceed modern West-Euro levels. Bell-Beakers are high in it because they have more med admixture.
    Atlantic itself must be a hybrid component too, probably a unique mix of certain WHG and EEF. Atlantic peaks in Basques, who are ~2/3 EEF + ~1/3 WHG, and it stretches along the mediterranean being significant still in Cyprus.
    Atlantic is hybrid, in k8, this one is composed of 45,81 of WHG
    42,17 of ENF and 12,01 of ANE

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    One must also not forget that both, West-Euro and East-Euro are modern components
    Aren't the boundaries of these components also a bit arbitrarily defined ???

    For example what is called "Eastern European" appears to be in fact "North-Eastern European":


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Aren't the boundaries of these components also a bit arbitrarily defined ???

    For example what is called "Eastern European" appears to be in fact "North-Eastern European":

    Completely agree, but that's how it was named in dv3 unfortunately.

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    The dark spot seems to corellate to late (iron age) Balt cultures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    The dark spot seems to corellate to late (iron age) Balt cultures.
    exactly


    goes with the linguistic fact , that slavic branched out of its parent , Baltic , on the modern borders of belarus and ukraine
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile
    slavic branched out of its parent, Baltic
    This is totally wrong. Most likely there was never even such a thing as a unified Baltic language. Let alone "parent" to Slavic.

    There was Balto-Slavic which split into Slavic, West Baltic and East Baltic (see Kromer 2003 - the most recent theory):


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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Here is a summary of my observations posted in this thread regarding the autosomal analysis of the Mesolithic and Bronze Age samples from Haak et al 2015.


    The results for the Gedrosian admixture (K12b) are:

    Sample
    Gedrosian admixture
    Mesolithic Karelia 6.05
    Mesolithic Samara 12.98
    Yamna 26.29
    Corded Ware 21.94
    German Bell Beaker 9.62

    This is just what I expected for Yamna. I am a bit perplexed over the two Mesolithic samples through. I shows that the Gedrosian admixture already existed in basal R1a and R1b with no West Asian admixture. That points to a Palaeolithic R1* origin of some of the Gedrosian. However, since Yamna and Corded Ware people have much more of it, it means that some Gedrosian also came from West Asia. That would mean that Gedrosian is not a pure admixture, but a compound, most likely of West Asian, South Asian, and perhaps also what K15 reports as Amerindian, which would be a sort of ANE. That explains why Gedrosia and ANE do not match at all in regions like Northeast Europe, which have a lot of ANE, but little Gedrosian.

    Here is where the Gedrosian admixture is found today.


    I think we need some more explanation about Gedrosia.

    According to the table above NE hunter gatherers, Yamna and Corded, so every ancient individual from NE Europe had substantial amount of Gedrosia. The most recent of these was Corded Ware who had 21% of it. Fast forward to today and in the same area, they used to live, we have Gedrosia below 1%!

    All of the admixtures which existed in Neolithic or Bronze age in this area exist today in modern populations, but strangely Gedrosia completely evaporated?! East Euro existed way back and exists there today, same as West Euro, plus we have new admixtures being added to the picture as the time goes by. They come and they stay, they fluctuate with time but they don't disappear. However Gedrosia is totally gone! Unless we are talking about complete population replacement this shouldn't have happened, right? I can understand it can be diluted somewhat, if Slavs and Balts came from far North Europe like Finland, but Slavs and Balts are not outliers of European population. Genetically they fit their geographical location, therefore we can conclude, there wasn't much of population replacement. We can't have over 20% of the genome (the maximum amount which exists today in Kurdistan, just vanish from such vast population of Corded Ware, unless population was completely replaced since Bronze Age. Or genetic admixtures can physically evaporate.

    Was Gedrosia in this map and Gedrosia in the table above done with exactly same admixture calculator?
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    @Le Brock Gedrosia on the map and the table above are from the Same k12b calculator.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    @Le Brock Gedrosia on the map and the table above are from the Same k12b calculator.
    Do you mind to guess what happened to all the 22% of Corded Ware Gedrosia in Eastern Europe? Corded Ware plote closest to Russians, Finns and Belarusians on PCA, so there was no population replacement. All HG's admixtures are still in East Europeans plus few new ones. However Gedrosia evaporated, all 22% of it. I could understand if Gedrosia dropped down to 10 or even 5% by some delusion since Bronze Age. But it is gone.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I think we need some more explanation about Gedrosia.

    According to the table above NE hunter gatherers, Yamna and Corded, so every ancient individual from NE Europe had substantial amount of Gedrosia. The most recent of these was Corded Ware who had 21% of it. Fast forward to today and in the same area, they used to live, we have Gedrosia below 1%!

    All of the admixtures which existed in Neolithic or Bronze age in this area exist today in modern populations, but strangely Gedrosia completely evaporated?! East Euro existed way back and exists there today, same as West Euro, plus we have new admixtures being added to the picture as the time goes by. They come and they stay, they fluctuate with time but they don't disappear. However Gedrosia is totally gone! Unless we are talking about complete population replacement this shouldn't have happened, right? I can understand it can be diluted somewhat, if Slavs and Balts came from far North Europe like Finland, but Slavs and Balts are not outliers of European population. Genetically they fit their geographical location, therefore we can conclude, there wasn't much of population replacement. We can't have over 20% of the genome (the maximum amount which exists today in Kurdistan, just vanish from such vast population of Corded Ware, unless population was completely replaced since Bronze Age. Or genetic admixtures can physically evaporate.

    Was Gedrosia in this map and Gedrosia in the table above done with exactly same admixture calculator?
    It is a mystery indeed. I think the explanation is that the Gedrosian admixture originated only with R1b people, and not R1a. The Gedrosian found in the Karelian R1a and Corded Ware R1a must have come from intermarriages with women from R1b tribes. In Corded Ware it is inevitable that R1b and R1a people must have mixed since Corded Ware was culturally descended from Yamna. Anyway the autosomal similarity between Yamna and Corded Ware suggests that there were lots of intermingling between the two, or simply that Corded Ware people were mostly descended from Yamna people originally, and that both R1a and R1b were found in Yamna.

    Through founder effects in the male lineages that migrated west, Corded Ware became R1a-dominant, while the southern Danubian branch that spawned Unetice was R1b-dominant. It could happen quickly in a very elitist society where one royal lineage grows exponentially through polygamy and evolves in lots of aristocrat lineages expanding in all directions. This is exactly how the Celts expanded.

    As I explained above, the Balto-Slavic branch probably descends from the pure R1a people from around Belarus and central western Russia, who later founded the Catacomb culture. Since their mtDNA shows no West Asian lineages whatsoever (as opposed to 45% of N1a, K, T, W and X in Yamna), they cannot have had West Asian admixture, including Gedrosian.

    The R1b that survives among the Slavs must have been diluted several times before it entered their gene pool. But it only takes a few generations of intermarrying with 'foreign' women (from outside one's tribe) to pass from 20% to 1%. Imagine a Yamna R1b lineage having children at each generation with Mesolithic NE European with 0% Gedrosia:

    After one generation : 20 => 10% Gedrosia
    After two generations : 5%
    After three generations : 2.5%
    After four generations : 1.25%
    After five generations : 0.6%

    Only 5 generation. In the Bronze Age that must have been about 100 years. All it means is that R1b men took almost only local wives when they reach Belarus and surrounding regions. Problem solved. By the way, the same process could explain the extreme dilution of R1b autosomes in the Basque population. After all Basque maternal lineages are almost entirely non-Indo-European.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    It is a mystery indeed. I think the explanation is that the Gedrosian admixture originated only with R1b people, and not R1a. The Gedrosian found in the Karelian R1a and Corded Ware R1a must have come from intermarriages with women from R1b tribes. In Corded Ware it is inevitable that R1b and R1a people must have mixed since Corded Ware was culturally descended from Yamna. Anyway the autosomal similarity between Yamna and Corded Ware suggests that there were lots of intermingling between the two, or simply that Corded Ware people were mostly descended from Yamna people originally, and that both R1a and R1b were found in Yamna.

    Through founder effects in the male lineages that migrated west, Corded Ware became R1a-dominant, while the southern Danubian branch that spawned Unetice was R1b-dominant. It could happen quickly in a very elitist society where one royal lineage grows exponentially through polygamy and evolves in lots of aristocrat lineages expanding in all directions. This is exactly how the Celts expanded.

    As I explained above, the Balto-Slavic branch probably descends from the pure R1a people from around Belarus and central western Russia, who later founded the Catacomb culture. Since their mtDNA shows no West Asian lineages whatsoever (as opposed to 45% of N1a, K, T, W and X in Yamna), they cannot have had West Asian admixture, including Gedrosian.

    The R1b that survives among the Slavs must have been diluted several times before it entered their gene pool. But it only takes a few generations of intermarrying with 'foreign' women (from outside one's tribe) to pass from 20% to 1%. Imagine a Yamna R1b lineage having children at each generation with Mesolithic NE European with 0% Gedrosia:

    After one generation : 20 => 10% Gedrosia
    After two generations : 5%
    After three generations : 2.5%
    After four generations : 1.25%
    After five generations : 0.6%

    Only 5 generation. In the Bronze Age that must have been about 100 years. All it means is that R1b men took almost only local wives when they reach Belarus and surrounding regions. Problem solved. By the way, the same process could explain the extreme dilution of R1b autosomes in the Basque population. After all Basque maternal lineages are almost entirely non-Indo-European.
    IIRC, the karafet 2014 paper states, R haplogroup created in south-east asia.
    R1 created in north india/tibet/bhutan area
    one R1 branch heading NW direction into central Asia and the other into Eastern Iran/afghanistan area .................only this afghan/east iranian would have any Gedrosian

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    This is totally wrong. Most likely there was never even such a thing as a unified Baltic language. Let alone "parent" to Slavic.

    There was Balto-Slavic which split into Slavic, West Baltic and East Baltic (see Kromer 2003 - the most recent theory):

    impossible that slavic and baltic are created together, because you would have an equal dispersal. Slavic came from the baltic family in the southern part/border of the baltic language area

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    to SILE
    some big bits of 'gedrosia' component were present more than 20000 or 30000 or 40000 years ago, in Russia and Siberia (Ust'Ishim, Mal'ta, K14-
    are we sure all 'gedrosia' genes of today are from India or Pakistan, either North or South???

    I know, I repeat myself sometimes...

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    All it means is that R1b men took almost only local wives when they reach Belarus and surrounding regions. Problem solved. By the way, the same process could explain the extreme dilution of R1b autosomes in the Basque population. After all Basque maternal lineages are almost entirely non-Indo-European.

    Yes, that surprises me that the Els Trocs R1b sample could be so completely opposite in Eurogenes 15 from the Samara R1b samples of around the sample time period. But I guess that would be the reason, with the Els Trocs and Basque R1b’s mating with an autosomally Sardinian-like population – although how the Basques got a different language would be another question. Here are the results of these R’s for Eurogenes 15:


    Eurogenes 15
    Population Mal'ta
    Siberia
    Samara
    Russia
    Els Trocs
    Spain
    Yamnaya
    Samara
    Russia
    Corded
    Ware
    Germany
    Bell
    Beaker
    Germany
    Me
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    Age 24,000 ybp 7,500 ybp 7,000 ybp 5,000 ybp 4,400 ybp 4,250 ybp 0 ybp
    Y-dna Haplogroup R* R1b1a* R1b1* R1b1a2a* R1a1a1 R1b1a2a1a2 R1b1a2a1a1
    North_Sea 15.91% 25.51 0.01 22.57 25.93 36.57 34.08%
    Atlantic 0.01 25.14 5.55 27.79 29.08 28.20%
    Baltic 6.54% 17.68 13.9 12.84 12.89 6.18%
    Eastern_Euro 38.02% 41.73 28.6 17.26 7.22 6.84%
    West_Med 61.98 9.76%
    West_Asian 19.61 11.6 12.34 5.22%
    East_Med 11.98 5.53%
    Red_Sea 0.89 0.01 0.04 2.38%
    South_Asian 20.31% 1.99 5.59 3.09 0.57 0.56%
    Southeast_Asian -
    Siberian 0.18 1.03%
    Amerindian 18.62% 12.02 4.18 1.49 1.09 -
    Oceanian 0.12% 1.07 0.01 -
    Northeast_African 0.20%
    Sub-Saharan 0.47% -


    From the new samples, I look somewhat more like a Bell Beaker than a Corded Ware dude, and have nearly all NorthWestern European ancestry that’s mostly English, with the other one-sixteenth being Jewish. Maybe the Bell Beakers contributed more genes to modern NorthWest Europeans than Corded Ware / Yamna did.
    Last edited by JS Bach; 06-03-15 at 14:23.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    It is a mystery indeed. I think the explanation is that the Gedrosian admixture originated only with R1b people, and not R1a. The Gedrosian found in the Karelian R1a and Corded Ware R1a must have come from intermarriages with women from R1b tribes. In Corded Ware it is inevitable that R1b and R1a people must have mixed since Corded Ware was culturally descended from Yamna. Anyway the autosomal similarity between Yamna and Corded Ware suggests that there were lots of intermingling between the two, or simply that Corded Ware people were mostly descended from Yamna people originally, and that both R1a and R1b were found in Yamna.

    Through founder effects in the male lineages that migrated west, Corded Ware became R1a-dominant, while the southern Danubian branch that spawned Unetice was R1b-dominant. It could happen quickly in a very elitist society where one royal lineage grows exponentially through polygamy and evolves in lots of aristocrat lineages expanding in all directions. This is exactly how the Celts expanded.

    As I explained above, the Balto-Slavic branch probably descends from the pure R1a people from around Belarus and central western Russia, who later founded the Catacomb culture. Since their mtDNA shows no West Asian lineages whatsoever (as opposed to 45% of N1a, K, T, W and X in Yamna), they cannot have had West Asian admixture, including Gedrosian.

    The R1b that survives among the Slavs must have been diluted several times before it entered their gene pool. But it only takes a few generations of intermarrying with 'foreign' women (from outside one's tribe) to pass from 20% to 1%. Imagine a Yamna R1b lineage having children at each generation with Mesolithic NE European with 0% Gedrosia:

    After one generation : 20 => 10% Gedrosia
    After two generations : 5%
    After three generations : 2.5%
    After four generations : 1.25%
    After five generations : 0.6%

    Only 5 generation. In the Bronze Age that must have been about 100 years. All it means is that R1b men took almost only local wives when they reach Belarus and surrounding regions. Problem solved. By the way, the same process could explain the extreme dilution of R1b autosomes in the Basque population. After all Basque maternal lineages are almost entirely non-Indo-European.
    Could you check Alan's hypothesis about missing Gedrosia in East Euro and missing Caucasus in West Euro.
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post451375

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    to SILE
    some big bits of 'gedrosia' component were present more than 20000 or 30000 or 40000 years ago, in Russia and Siberia (Ust'Ishim, Mal'ta, K14-
    are we sure all 'gedrosia' genes of today are from India or Pakistan, either North or South???

    I know, I repeat myself sometimes...
    never heard of gedrosia in russia and siberian ...gedrosia is on the coast of the india ocean in modern eastern iran

    http://www.antiquaprintgallery.com/a...p-198924-p.asp

    north of Gedrosia was ancient ARIANA ....................some say means home of Aryans

    Makran is the "capital" of Gedrosian ..............some say origin of LT-P326 marker

    http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/359318/Makran

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    It is a mystery indeed. I think the explanation is that the Gedrosian admixture originated only with R1b people, and not R1a.
    Corded Ware has not any sign of R1b but R1a, G2a and probably J.

    Also take in mind Reich said R1b and R1a where brought to Europe by Yamna or Yamna related people. Remember they have over 50 of Yamna samples and only published 6(?) so far.
    They will probably publish the other samples with new studies. I am very convinced they have come across R1a too, otherwise Reich wouldn't say that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Corded Ware has not any sign of R1b but R1a, G2a and probably J.

    Also take in mind Reich said R1b and R1a where brought to Europe by Yamna or Yamna related people. Remember they have over 50 of Yamna samples and only published 6(?) so far.
    They will probably publish the other samples with new studies. I am very convinced they have come across R1a too, otherwise Reich wouldn't say that.
    I hope you are not referring to the CW was brought to Europe .........but created in central Europe. it is made my all haplogroups livng in germany at the time plus merging of the migrating Yamnya haplogroups

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    I hope you are not referring to the CW was brought to Europe .........but created in central Europe. it is made my all haplogroups livng in germany at the time plus merging of the migrating Yamnya haplogroups
    I think you misunderstand me. Since there is no known R1b in CW, R1a(and the J sample) must have brought it there, because there is no pre Bronze Age R1a in Central Europe.

    Also Reich clearly said R1b and R1a both were brought to Europe by Yamna or Yamna related groups. And they have 50+ Yamna samples and only published 6 of them. Probably witholding the other for further studies to be published.

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    As this is related to the Gedrosia component, I thought it should probably be posted in this thread as well as in the thread about the Neolithic R1b sample from Spain:
    Originally Posted by ElHorsto
    To me it rather looks like a ~50% population change happened in NE europe since Corded Ware, not only because Gedrosia disappeared, but also the 27% Eurogenes15 'Atlantic' dropped to about 12%, and 'Baltic' increased from 13% to >21%. Finally also R1b lineages are very sparse in NE Europe compared to the rest.
    One reason is probably the migration of mesolithic scandinavian hunter-gathers who increased I2a and WHG (~'Baltic') in NE europe. I also wonder how densely populated this region was. If sparse, then populations can be altered more easily.
    Why Gedrosia disappeared completely though, is not completely explained yet.
    That theory makes some sense to me as well, as I've been saying for a long time. I think there was probably migration from the north post Yamnaya, but I also think it needs to be remembered that Corded Ware moved northwest off the more southern regions. It was only later that it moved east and incorporated what I think will turn out to be more EHG like people who were living in the forest steppe, EHG like people who probably had next to no Gedrosia. (I think it has to be kept in mind that the populations in eastern Europe were probably on a cline from north to south. Here we're talking about Yamna, which was to the south and a population-Corded Ware-related to Yamnaya.)While I know that some people will find it disappointing, it may be that Corded Ware really doesn't equal modern northeast European or even eastern European. It just isn't a very good match for those populations.

    (The recent paper on these forest steppe populations, which discusses this movement east by Corded Ware is discussed here:
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...213#post451213)

    Since we've been talking about K12b, here are the K12b figures for Corded Ware, Lithuanians and Russians. In both of the modern populations, North Euro increased by 20 points and Gedrosia dropped by 20 points. Atlantic Med dropped by 7 points in both, and in Lithuanians, Caucasus stayed about the same, but in Russians, it increased.
    Corded Ware:


    • 50.54% North_European
    • 21.94% Gedrosia
    • 20.47% Atlantic_Med
    • 6.82% Caucasus
    • 0.22% South_Asian
    • 0.02% Southwest_Asian
    • 0.00% East_African
    • 0.00% East_Asian
    • 0.00% Northwest_African
    • 0.00% Siberian
    • 0.00% Southeast_Asian
    • 0.00% Sub_Saharan



    Lithuanians:
    77.1 North European
    0 Gedrosia
    13.7 Atlantic Med
    8 Caucasus
    1 S.W.Asian
    .1 S Asian

    Russians:
    66.5 North Euro
    .2 Gedrosia
    13.1 Atlantic Med
    14.3 Caucasus
    .8 South Asian
    .6 SW Asian
    0 E.African
    1.2 E.Asian
    .1 Northwest African
    2.7 Siberian
    .4S.E.Asian
    0 SSA

    The Germans actually seem like a better fit with Corded Ware:
    48.2 North Euro
    7.3 Gedrosia
    33 Atlantic Med
    9.8 Caucasus
    1.7 S.W.Asian

    In their case it seems like the rise in Atlantic Med and S.W. Asian cut into the Gedrosia.

    I think those more central European populations were formed by different migrations, which may have started off from the steppe at an earlier time, and they also probably experienced more admixture from the prior Neolithic farming communities.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    As this is related to the Gedrosia component, I thought it should probably be posted in this thread as well as in the thread about the Neolithic R1b sample from Spain:
    Originally Posted by ElHorsto
    To me it rather looks like a ~50% population change happened in NE europe since Corded Ware, not only because Gedrosia disappeared, but also the 27% Eurogenes15 'Atlantic' dropped to about 12%, and 'Baltic' increased from 13% to >21%. Finally also R1b lineages are very sparse in NE Europe compared to the rest.
    One reason is probably the migration of mesolithic scandinavian hunter-gathers who increased I2a and WHG (~'Baltic') in NE europe. I also wonder how densely populated this region was. If sparse, then populations can be altered more easily.
    Why Gedrosia disappeared completely though, is not completely explained yet.
    That theory makes some sense to me as well, as I've been saying for a long time. I think there was probably migration from the north post Yamnaya, but I also think it needs to be remembered that Corded Ware moved northwest off the more southern regions. It was only later that it moved east and incorporated what I think will turn out to be more EHG like people who were living in the forest steppe, EHG like people who probably had next to no Gedrosia. (I think it has to be kept in mind that the populations in eastern Europe were probably on a cline from north to south. Here we're talking about Yamna, which was to the south and a population-Corded Ware-related to Yamnaya.)While I know that some people will find it disappointing, it may be that Corded Ware really doesn't equal modern northeast European or even eastern European. It just isn't a very good match for those populations.

    (The recent paper on these forest steppe populations, which discusses this movement east by Corded Ware is discussed here:
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...213#post451213)

    Since we've been talking about K12b, here are the K12b figures for Corded Ware, Lithuanians and Russians. In both of the modern populations, North Euro increased by 20 points and Gedrosia dropped by 20 points. Atlantic Med dropped by 7 points in both, and in Lithuanians, Caucasus stayed about the same, but in Russians, it increased.
    Corded Ware:


    • 50.54% North_European
    • 21.94% Gedrosia
    • 20.47% Atlantic_Med
    • 6.82% Caucasus
    • 0.22% South_Asian
    • 0.02% Southwest_Asian
    • 0.00% East_African
    • 0.00% East_Asian
    • 0.00% Northwest_African
    • 0.00% Siberian
    • 0.00% Southeast_Asian
    • 0.00% Sub_Saharan



    Lithuanians:
    77.1 North European
    0 Gedrosia
    13.7 Atlantic Med
    8 Caucasus
    1 S.W.Asian
    .1 S Asian

    Russians:
    66.5 North Euro
    .2 Gedrosia
    13.1 Atlantic Med
    14.3 Caucasus
    .8 South Asian
    .6 SW Asian
    0 E.African
    1.2 E.Asian
    .1 Northwest African
    2.7 Siberian
    .4S.E.Asian
    0 SSA

    The Germans actually seem like a better fit with Corded Ware:
    48.2 North Euro
    7.3 Gedrosia
    33 Atlantic Med
    9.8 Caucasus
    1.7 S.W.Asian

    In their case it seems like the rise in Atlantic Med and S.W. Asian cut into the Gedrosia.

    I think those more central European populations were formed by different migrations, which may have started off from the steppe at an earlier time, and they also probably experienced more admixture from the prior Neolithic farming communities.
    which mix are we "playing" with in these dicussion, because IIRC Maciano was using dv3
    K12b or the K=12 which id dv3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    which mix are we "playing" with in these dicussion, because IIRC Maciano was using dv3
    K12b or the K=12 which id dv3
    I guess since I wrote that the results are all from K12b, it's K12b.

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    Fascinating stuff. I hope someone helps me to get this fixed.

    Similar as lack of WHG in some Asian IE populations put Yamna origin of PIE under question, also lack of Gedrosia in Balts/East Slavs is a problem when Yamna had 30% of it. So going same style I would say that PIE originated in Baltics and then moved into Yamna :)
    Because those German Corded samples (and Yamna samples) do not look like ancestors of Balts. Too much of goodies they have that we dont. But we can easily be partial ancestors to Yamna, Corded...

    I am obviously missing something, because Yamna - Corded - Balts cultural archeological chain is mainstream and logical.
    OK, those were German Corded samples, would be interesting to look at Middle Dnieper Culture (also Corded, according Gimbutas one of centers for Corded migrations in different directions) admixtures.

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