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Thread: I2a-Din distribution among East Slavs

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    I2a-Din distribution among East Slavs

    I'm interested in data on frequency patterns of I2a-Din among East Slavic populations but especially Russians from western regions (including those living immediately to the east of Belarusian-Ukrainian-Russian borderland, all the way from the north to the south as far as the steppe, for example in areas such as Oryol and Belgorod) as well as in Ukrainians. Because I already have some data for Belarus.

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    We need to have new maps, one for Balkan I2 and another for Sardinian I2.
    Sicilians and mainlander Southern Italian phenotype galleries.

    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/1111/Re-Groups-of-Sicilians
    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/375/Southern-italians-how-we-really-look

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    Would be nice to have a map of I2-din North and I2-din South.
    That would make things more clear,I think.
    Already written in another thread,Serbo-Croatians meaning Serbians,Bosnians,Croatians - Montenegrins (?) ,Fyromians (?) are I2-din South.
    Romanians,Bulgarians,North Greeks,Poles,Ukrainians,Russians (?),Belarussians (?) are I2-din North.
    Highest percentage of I2-din South is in Bosnia,highest percentage of I2-din North,in Romania.
    It is clear that this kind of proto-Slavs,I2-din bearers originated in Romania and Balkans.
    R1A-slavs originated on current day Ukraine and Poland lands.
    I2-din Slavs are South Slavs&ancient Dacians.
    Eastern Slavs are actually people that got first conquered by I2-din Slavs and after conquered by Baltic people,this is why Polish or Ukrainian are much more closed to Latvian/Lithuanian that Serbo-Croatian is.

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    Mihaitzateo, you really like fairy tales!

    Polish people or Poland were never conquered by Lithuanians, Poland signed a union with Lithuania and then Polish culture conquered Lithuania (practically all of Lithuanian nobles and many commoners adopted religion from Poland, as well as language, culture and identity).

    As for Latvians:

    Latvians were never independent in their history between the 1200s and the early 1900s, so how could they conquer anyone?

    And stop posting Off-Topic things - I was asking about frequencies of I2a-Din among East Slavic populations.

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    BTW - how did the Kurdish people (who are Iranic-speakers) acquire I2a-Din ???

    Could that be due to Slavic settlement in Asia Minor since the 7th century?

    Or maybe that stems from common ancestors of Slavic and Iranic peoples.

    R1A-slavs originated on current day Ukraine and Poland lands.
    Ukraine has lower % of R1a than West Russia (e.g. Oryol and Belgorod both have 60-62% R1a), Poland, Belarus and South Lithuania.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    BTW - how did the Kurdish people (who are Iranic-speakers) acquire I2a-Din ???

    Could that be due to Slavic settlement in Asia Minor since the 7th century?

    Or maybe that stems from common ancestors of Slavic and Iranic peoples.



    Ukraine has lower % of R1a than West Russia (e.g. Oryol and Belgorod both have 60-62% R1a), Poland, Belarus and South Lithuania.
    Yest this is intriguing to say the least. Perhaps on of East Iranic Sarmatians from Ukraine ended up in Kurdistan. I can picture this happening during great migration period. They could have been pushed into Balkans and farther from Balkans pushed to Anatolia by Bulgars and Slavs. Sarmatians might have been linguistically East Iranian but genetically mostly local from Ukraine.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Do you read Polish LeBrok? IIRC you wrote somewhere that you do. Then check this:

    http://www.historycy.org/index.php?showtopic=91111

    Check part V of the article about Slavic migrations:

    http://www.speedyshare.com/PaHRD/S-owianie-cz5.doc

    And especially these excerpts from this part V:

    "Społeczności słowiańskie, władza bizantyjska osadzała jako forpocztę oporu w pobliżu granicy z Arabami i – później – państewkami tureckimi."
    "Szczególnie duże ich skupiska znajdują się jeszcze w IX stuleciu wokół miejscowości: al-Chusus (pogranicze arabsko-bizantyjskie), Hisn Salman (nieopodal Aleppo) i Hisn Zijad (nad górnym Eufratem). Proces zaniku wspomnianych grup słowiańskich na omawianych obszarach nie został odnotowany. Jeśli jednak uwzględnimy, że według niejakiego ibn Wahasziji, całkiem niedaleko bo w południowej Armenii jeszcze w IX wieku istniały enklawy wolnych Słowian, którzy nadal byli … poganami, to żywotności bliskowschodnim społecznościom słowiańskim można tylko pozazdrościć."
    "Kilkadziesiąt lat później kolejna grupa Słowian, licząca tym razem około 20 000 osób pod wodzą niejakiego Nebulosa przeszła na stronę Arabów. W nagrodę kalif nadał im w północnej Syrii ziemie do zasiedlenia."
    It is about settlement of Balkan Slavs in Asia Minor, including areas of modern Kurdistan.

    Slavs were settled near Byzantine-Arab and later Byzantine-Turkish borders as military settlers. They also settled in northern Syria (20,000 settlers), near Aleppo, along the upper course of the Euphrates River and in southern Armenia.

    Byzantine-Arab and later Byzantine-Turkish borders were for a long time roughly in the area of Kurdistan.

    BTW - first mention of Slavs in Asia Minor is from 7th century AD, while first mention of Kurds is from 9th century AD, so it is possible that those Slavs - apart from various Iranic-speaking elements - took part in Kurdish ethnogenesis.

    IIRC Kurds also have some R1a-Z282, even though Iranic R1a-Z93 is dominant among them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    BTW - how did the Kurdish people (who are Iranic-speakers) acquire I2a-Din ???
    I don't think they have much I2a-Din. KurdishDNA lists no Kurdish samples that have been tested specifically as I2a-Din. There is an interesting chunk of apparently I1 samples (mostly from one study though), a couple of I2-M223 samples, and an I2-L38 sample, but no I2a-Din in their data.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Yest this is intriguing to say the least. Perhaps on of East Iranic Sarmatians from Ukraine ended up in Kurdistan. I can picture this happening during great migration period. They could have been pushed into Balkans and farther from Balkans pushed to Anatolia by Bulgars and Slavs. Sarmatians might have been linguistically East Iranian but genetically mostly local from Ukraine.
    Parthians asked among the Sarmatians for help against the Romans and settled Sarmatian tribal groups on their Western borders. Those Sarmatian tribes ended up becoming Parthians themselves.


    Adiabene had a mixed population. According to Pliny, four tribes inhabited the region of Adiabene: Orontes, Alani, Azones and Silices.
    Based on names of the Adiabene rulers, Ernst Herzfeld suggested a Saka/Scythian origin for the royal house of the kingdom;[16][17] however, later progress in Iranian linguistic studies showed that these names were common west middle Iranian names.[18] It has been suggested that the royal house of Adiabene after fleeing Trajan's invasion, established the later Amatuni dynasty who ruled the area between lakes Urmia and Van.[19][20]
    The ruling tribe was Parthians.
    Orontest were most likely a local Parthian tribe. Alani = Alans, Azones and Silices = also Sarmatian tribes. Unfortunately we can't rely more on Wikipedia because of allot of spammers who have turned the history of Adiabene into "little Assyria/Armenia" despite the locals beeing of Iranic origin and under Parthian rule.

    It tells the tragic story of two young people in love. Mem, a young Kurdish boy of the "Alan" clan & heir to the City of the West,
    There is a famous Kurdish poem of Mem, a Kurdish boy of the Alan tribe and Zin a girl from the local Butan/Botan tribe, which is most likely the Buddi tribe of the Medes, since the people traditionally call themselves also Boti/Buti.
    This poem stems from my home region. And the people there say we are descend of Mem the Alan. This should explain why I chose this Username.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mem_and_Zin

    I have said it in the past and can only repeat myself. Kurds are descend of Parthians who themselves are the middle Iranic descend of the Medes. Medes=> Parthians=> Kurds.

    BUT Iranic tribes were very mobile people. And during the Median, Parthian and even Sassanid periods many Iranic tribal groups moved and settled among their other Iranic cousins. For example some Medes/Parthians went so far and settled on the Balkans according to Heredotus and some other sources I have seen.

    We have found many evidences for that for example Scythians and Cimmerians settled in Media and became Medes themselves. According to Carola Metzner-Nebelsick the Scythians and Cimmerians who became locals in Media started to call themselves Medes too.

    We have to realize and see the relation between those tribes. They were close cousins and acted as such. Back than the linguistic difference between East and West Iranic must have been more like that what you find among dialects of some languages.


    And about the Sarmatian, they came from East of the Caspian and settled above the Scythians. Genetically, just like Yamna they were most likely something in between North Caucasians, Udmurts,Mordovians, Ukrainians and ancient Central Asians, but in comparison to Yamna leaning stronger towards North Caucasus/Central Asia.
    Last edited by Alan; 22-04-15 at 00:05.

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    Sparkey - I've seen in this thread you wrote that Kurdish I2a is Dinaric:

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post374841

    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey
    (...) everything I've read has had Kurdish I2a as being I2a-Din, the same as Balkans-type, which has a very young TMRCA of something like 3000-2500 years ago. Have anything that suggests that Kurdish I2a might be of an older type?
    Now I see that you wrote it back in 2011 - has this been debunked since?

    BTW - YFull estimates I2a-Din TMRCA as 6600 years ago, so it might not be originally Slavic.

    However, YFull also gives TMRCA of R1b-U106 as 5100 years ago (far too old to be originally Germanic).

    These labels like "Germanic", "Italic" or "Celtic" are based more on modern distribution than on reality.

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    Alan,

    Do you have full data on Kurdish Y-DNA - how much R1a-Z93 and other R1a, how R1b (and what subclades), how much I2, etc.?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    BTW - how did the Kurdish people (who are Iranic-speakers) acquire I2a-Din ???

    Could that be due to Slavic settlement in Asia Minor since the 7th century?


    Ukraine has lower % of R1a than West Russia (e.g. Oryol and Belgorod both have 60-62% R1a), Poland, Belarus and South Lithuania.
    Some say, it was cimmerian migration in the period of 700BC from the steppes into Cappodacia ( near current kurdish lands )
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Sparkey - I've seen in this thread you wrote that Kurdish I2a is Dinaric:

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post374841



    Now I see that you wrote it back in 2011 - has this been debunked since?
    Pretty much, I was wrong in 2011. I think I was getting the idea of Kurds carrying I2a-Din from Maciamo, who I think was supposing it based on geographic patterns. Alan and others have presented much more specific data since then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    BTW - YFull estimates I2a-Din TMRCA as 6600 years ago, so it might not be originally Slavic.

    However, YFull also gives TMRCA of R1b-U106 as 5100 years ago (far too old to be originally Germanic).

    These labels like "Germanic", "Italic" or "Celtic" are based more on modern distribution than on reality.
    YFull has 6600 YBP for the combined Disles+Dinaric branch (L621). For I2a-Din CTS5966+ specifically they have 2300 YBP. So quite possibly pre-Slavic, but definitely young enough to have a very strong connection.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Alan,

    Do you have full data on Kurdish Y-DNA - how much R1a-Z93 and other R1a, how R1b (and what subclades), how much I2, etc.?
    No I don't have full data on how much z93 vs other. But have data that all kind of R1a subclades exist.
    We have m420 in the study of Grugni et al and also a Kurdish user here (Goga). There is also m17 in the study.
    We have sample results of R1a z283, m417, and m198.
    So basically there is every kind of R1a. Down the line but the biggest group seems to be z93.

    There is also R1* among Kurds.



    And I have to agree with Sparkey it seems I* among Kurds is not pred. i2a-din but weirdly enough I2-M438, I2a2a-M223, I2a2b-L38 and some sort of I1*.
    Last edited by Alan; 21-04-15 at 23:59.

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    Well since you ask about I2-din from East Slavs,I already gave a partially answer,all this I2-din from East Slavs is I2-din North,is not same I2-din as Serbo-Croatians are having,from what I am understanding.
    I would be also interested to see a map of I2-din in Ukraine,Belarus,Russia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    I'm interested in data on frequency patterns of I2a-Din among East Slavic populations but especially Russians from western regions (including those living immediately to the east of Belarusian-Ukrainian-Russian borderland, all the way from the north to the south as far as the steppe, for example in areas such as Oryol and Belgorod) as well as in Ukrainians. Because I already have some data for Belarus.
    Which SNP defines Din subclade? I have never seen exact assignment. If you are interested in I2 subclades in Russia I recommend you to read:
    "Two Sources of the Russian Patrilineal Heritage in Their Eurasian Context" they tested for M170, M253, P37.2 and M223.
    For deeper subclades:
    "Y-Chromosome distribution within the geo-linguistic landscape of northwestern Russia" they tested for M258, M253, M21, M227, M438, P37.2, M26, M423, M436, M223, M379 and M284. Interestingly every sample was M423 negative. Russian samples were collected in Arkhangelsk, Tver and Kursk. Furthermore there are some I2* lineages found only in Arkhangelsk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile
    Some say, it was cimmerian migration in the period of 700BC from the steppes into Cappodacia ( near current kurdish lands )
    If TMRCA of I2a-Din is only 2300 years ago (i.e. 300 BC), then it could not be spread by any Cimmerian migration around 700 BC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matbir View Post
    Which SNP defines Din subclade? I have never seen exact assignment. If you are interested in I2 subclades in Russia I recommend you to read:
    "Two Sources of the Russian Patrilineal Heritage in Their Eurasian Context" they tested for M170, M253, P37.2 and M223.
    For deeper subclades:
    "Y-Chromosome distribution within the geo-linguistic landscape of northwestern Russia" they tested for M258, M253, M21, M227, M438, P37.2, M26, M423, M436, M223, M379 and M284. Interestingly every sample was M423 negative. Russian samples were collected in Arkhangelsk, Tver and Kursk. Furthermore there are some I2* lineages found only in Arkhangelsk.
    Thank you Matbir! Yes I wanted mainly data for Russia. Kursk and Tver should be good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Well since you ask about I2-din from East Slavs,I already gave a partially answer,all this I2-din from East Slavs is I2-din North,is not same I2-din as Serbo-Croatians are having,from what I am understanding.
    I would be also interested to see a map of I2-din in Ukraine,Belarus,Russia.
    This is not true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Thank you Matbir! Yes I wanted mainly data for Russia. Kursk and Tver should be good.
    According to Maciamo I2a-Din is L621 positive if that is precise assignment, then all Russian samples from second study aren’t I2a-Din.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    If TMRCA of I2a-Din is only 2300 years ago (i.e. 300 BC), then it could not be spread by any Cimmerian migration around 700 BC.
    I presume you got the numbers from yFull ........if that is the case, then realise than yfull has changed their numbers 3 times since 1st January 2015

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    Croats I2a1b2a1a3 A356 are coming from the southern Poland or White Croatia I2a1b2a1a S17250 ...




    I2a1b2a1a S17250/YP204
    • • • • • • • • • I2a1b2a1a* -
    • • • • • • • • • I2a1b2a1a1 Z16971
    • • • • • • • • • I2a1b2a1a2 Y4882
    • • • • • • • • • I2a1b2a1a3 A356/Z16983

    http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpI.html

    This means that all those who have mutation I2a1b2a1a S17250/YP204 are White Croatian or Croatian origin..

    It is the logic.

    Good part of Bosniaks, Serbs, Montenegrins, Slovenes, Romanians, Ukrainians, Bulgarians, who have an earlier mutation S17250 are White Croatian or Croatian origin ... It is irrefutably

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    Croats I2a1b2a1a3 A356 are coming from the southern Poland or White Croatia I2a1b2a1a S17250 ...




    I2a1b2a1a S17250/YP204
    • • • • • • • • • I2a1b2a1a* -
    • • • • • • • • • I2a1b2a1a1 Z16971
    • • • • • • • • • I2a1b2a1a2 Y4882
    • • • • • • • • • I2a1b2a1a3 A356/Z16983

    http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpI.html

    This means that all those who have mutation I2a1b2a1a S17250/YP204 are White Croatian or Croatian origin..

    It is the logic.

    Good part of Bosniaks, Serbs, Montenegrins, Slovenes, Romanians, Ukrainians, Bulgarians, who have an earlier mutation S17250 are White Croatian or Croatian origin ... It is irrefutably
    According to distribution of R1a clades White Croatia fits better Czechs than Poland. We had extended discussion about this here:
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...vic-R1a-clades

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    According to distribution of R1a clades White Croatia fits better Czechs than Poland. We had extended discussion about this here:
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...vic-R1a-clades


    Croats have a major haplotype in a population I2a1b3a1a A356 which comes from southern Poland..

    R1a haplotype is the second in the Croatian population, R1a Z280 CTS3402 type...

    R1a-Y26133aef0.jpg

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