I2a-Din distribution among East Slavs

Tomenable said:
If TMRCA of I2a-Din is only 2300 years ago (i.e. 300 BC), then it could not be spread by any Cimmerian migration around 700 BC.
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I presume you got the numbers from yFull ........if that is the case, then realise than yfull has changed their numbers 3 times since 1st January 2015
 
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2253976/table/tbl2/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2253976/



gr4.jpg
 
Croats I2a1b2a1a3 A356 are coming from the southern Poland or White Croatia I2a1b2a1a S17250 ...




I2a1b2a1a S17250/YP204
• • • • • • • • • I2a1b2a1a* -
• • • • • • • • • I2a1b2a1a1 Z16971
• • • • • • • • • I2a1b2a1a2 Y4882
• • • • • • • • • I2a1b2a1a3 A356/Z16983

http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpI.html

This means that all those who have mutation I2a1b2a1a S17250/YP204 are White Croatian or Croatian origin..

It is the logic.

Good part of Bosniaks, Serbs, Montenegrins, Slovenes, Romanians, Ukrainians, Bulgarians, who have an earlier mutation S17250 are White Croatian or Croatian origin ... It is irrefutably
 
hrvat22 said:
Croats I2a1b2a1a3 A356 are coming from the southern Poland or White Croatia I2a1b2a1a S17250 ...




I2a1b2a1a S17250/YP204
• • • • • • • • • I2a1b2a1a* -
• • • • • • • • • I2a1b2a1a1 Z16971
• • • • • • • • • I2a1b2a1a2 Y4882
• • • • • • • • • I2a1b2a1a3 A356/Z16983

http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpI.html

This means that all those who have mutation I2a1b2a1a S17250/YP204 are White Croatian or Croatian origin..

It is the logic.

Good part of Bosniaks, Serbs, Montenegrins, Slovenes, Romanians, Ukrainians, Bulgarians, who have an earlier mutation S17250 are White Croatian or Croatian origin ... It is irrefutably
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According to distribution of R1a clades White Croatia fits better Czechs than Poland. We had extended discussion about this here:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30760-Slavic-R1a-clades
 
hrvat22 said:
Croats have a major haplotype in a population I2a1b3a1a A356 which comes from southern Poland.
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We don't know that. I2a1b3a1a might as well come to Poland with population movements in ancient times. Till we have this confirmed by ancient samples, we don't know.

R1a haplotype is the second in the Croatian population, R1a Z280 CTS3402 type...

View attachment 7257
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There is historical problem with White Croatian location. There are no Polish records indicating that Southern Poland was called White Croatia ever. You are welcome to check pre 1780 maps and documents. The only records come from Austro-Hungarian Empire documents. It was a political chess game of A-H to justify occupation of Poland. It wasn't occupation but liberation of Croatian land, which was the rightful property of A-H Empire.
 
LeBrok
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We don't know that. I2a1b3a1a might as well come to Poland with population movements in ancient times. Till we have this confirmed by ancient samples, we don't know.
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I'm not talking about I2a1b2a, I2a1b2a1, I2a1b2, I2a1b1, I2a1, I2a..

I'm talking about I2a1b3a1a which has the source and comes from southern Poland and southwestern Ukraine...what mentioned haplotypes have to do with time 1,500 years ago when they are older before is mentioned White Croatia...thus we can back to the Swiss cave or Asia Minor when we gather fruits before 20,000 years....


There is historical problem with White Croatian location. There are no Polish records indicating that Southern Poland was called White Croatia ever
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What does that mean, that White Croatia does not exist because it does not mention by the Poles .... a little away from the southern Poland in southwestern Ukraine there are city Stiljsko where they lived White Croats....considering that the Poles in this area not mentioned White Croatia apparently in city Stiljsko lived aliens....

What does it matter whether the Poles something mentioned or not mentioned ... neither Serbs or Albanians mention Red Croatia in the Balkans .. and what does that mean...


Mother of Pope John Paul II was not White Croat because the Poles do not mention any White Croatia in southern Poland..

This is your logic..
 
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hrvat22 said:
I'm not talking about I2a1b2a, I2a1b2a1, I2a1b2, I2a1b1, I2a1, I2a..

I'm talking about I2a1b3a1a which has the source and comes from southern Poland and southwestern Ukraine...what mentioned haplotypes have to do with time 1,500 years ago when they are older before is mentioned White Croatia...thus we can back to the Swiss cave or Asia Minor when we gather fruits before 20,000 years....
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Exactly, this was the time of Great Migration. We have no idea at this moment if this subclade was already in South Poland or moved there with migration of Slavs.




What does that mean, that White Croatia does not exist because it does not mention by the Poles .... a little away from the southern Poland in southwestern Ukraine there are city Stiljsko where they lived White Croats....considering that the Poles in this area not mentioned White Croatia apparently in city Stiljsko lived aliens....
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First of all it is not in Poland, secondly if the claim comes from documents of A-H Empire it might be due to their agenda, I mentioned above. They also occupied part of Western Ukraine, called Galicia.

What does it matter whether the Poles something mentioned or not mentioned ... neither Serbs or Albanians mention Red Croatia in the Balkans .. and what does that mean...
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You mean that till the time of A-H empire Polish chronicles, politicians, surveyors missed big population of White Croats? Mind you that Poland was part of multicultural Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth, there was no agenda to hid ethnicity. Tatars are mentioned my any authors, Ukrainians, Kashubians, Belorussians, etc, but not Croats. It must be anti Croatian conspiracy, don't you think?


Mother of Pope John Paul II was not White Croat because the Poles do not mention any White Croatia in southern Poland..

This is your logic..
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She is mentioned as such in A-H documents. After 100 years of such lies, some people got confused, and don't know how it started.
If you present a document from before 1780, before A-H occupation of Poland, I will admit that you are right. Just one document or a map.
Every emigrant from Krakow area, A-H occupation zone, to USA till 1918, was classified as White Croat, not as Polish, because they arrived with documents issued by A-H Empire. They called all Polish people, from their occupation area, White Croats.
Because of this, not only Poles are confused about this issue now, but also many Croatians, like yourself.
 
LeBrok
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Exactly, this was the time of Great Migration. We have no idea at this moment if this subclade was already in South Poland or moved there with migration of Slavs.
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It does not refute fact that haplotype I2a1b2a1a3 A356 coming from south Poland and south-western Ukraine to Croatia...which tribe and groups of people belonged earlier haplotypes I2a1b2a1 and from which side and tribes come to Poland earlier or is there a native can not affect fact that Croats coming from White Croatia....I2a1b2a1 may have originated in Turkey and came with Slavs to south Poland, but 1,500 years ago they named Croats in southern Poland and southwestern Ukraine and as such came to Croatia..


You mean that till the time of A-H empire Polish chronicles, politicians, surveyors missed big population of White Croats? Mind you that Poland was part of multicultural Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth, there was no agenda to hid ethnicity. Tatars are mentioned my any authors, Ukrainians, Kashubians, Belorussians, etc, but not Croats. It must be anti Croatian conspiracy, don't you think?
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Croats have 17 pages material of toponyms, place names, rivers etc... the same as in Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia and Ukraine...

Historia Salonitana 13th century

Croats coming from the Poland and Czech

Konstantina VII. Porfirogeneta 10th century

The Croats at that time were dwelling beyond Bavaria, wherethe Belocroats are now..

That the Croats who now live in the regionsof Dalmatia are descended from the unbaptized
Croats, also called the‘white’, who live beyond Turkey(Hungary) and next to Francia

That the clan of the anthypatos and patrikios Michael, son of Visevitz, archon of the Zachlumians, came from the unbaptized inhabitants on the Visla River, called Litziki, and they settled on the river called Zachluma (South Dalmatia) ...

Alois Jirásek believed that this was the original homeland of the Slavs - north of the Tatra Mountains and the basin of the Vistula. The first chapter of the Old Czech Legends begins: In the Tatras, in the plains of the river Vistula, stretched from time immemorial Charvátská country, the initial part of the great Slavic homeland

http://www.pgsa.org/images/AtlasMaps/Atlas2W.jpg


Atlas2W.jpg

She is mentioned as such in A-H documents. After 100 years of such lies, some people got confused, and don't know how it started.
If you present a document from before 1780, before A-H occupation of Poland, I will admit that you are right. Just one document or a map.
Every emigrant from Krakow area, A-H occupation zone, to USA till 1918, was classified as White Croat, not as Polish, because they arrived with documents issued by A-H Empire. They called all Polish people, from their occupation area, White Croats.
Because of this, not only Poles are confused about this issue now, but also many Croatians, like yourself.
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80 percent of Croatian Serbs who came to America were declared themselves as Croats under the race because they come from Austro Hungary ..hhahaahha what about those who identified themselves as Serbs... people are not sheep that can not say who they are ...
 
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Today people with I2a1b2a1a3 haplotype are Bulgarians, Serbs, Montenegrins, Bosnians, etc .. But if they have mutation I2a1b2a1a S17250 they are White Croatian origin...It is the logic.

Whether they come directly from White Croatia to Bulgaria or from Croatia remains to be determined....as well as some Czechs have earlier mutation I2a1b2a1a3 A356....these Czechs obviously come from Croatia...
 
hrvat22 said:
It does not refute fact that haplotype I2a1b2a1a3 A356 coming from south Poland and south-western Ukraine to Croatia...which tribe and groups of people belonged earlier haplotypes I2a1b2a1 and from which side and tribes come to Poland earlier or is there a native can not affect fact that Croats coming from White Croatia....I2a1b2a1 may have originated in Turkey and came with Slavs to south Poland, but 1,500 years ago they named Croats in southern Poland and southwestern Ukraine and as such came to Croatia..
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Please present ancient A356 from Poland. Otherwise we only know it exists in Polish population now, but we don't know where it started. Can you see the difference?




Croats have 17 pages material of toponyms, place names, rivers etc... the same as in Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia and Ukraine...
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They are culturally and linguisticaly related. I'm just saying that we don't know where White Croatia was.

Historia Salonitana 13th century

Croats coming from the Poland and Czech
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Can you cite it?

Konstantina VII. Porfirogeneta 10th century

The Croats at that time were dwelling beyond Bavaria, wherethe Belocroats are now..
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Right, does it say it was in Poland?

That the Croats who now live in the regionsof Dalmatia are descended from the unbaptized
Croats, also called the‘white’, who live beyond Turkey(Hungary) and next to Francia
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There were Slavic tribes all over East Germany like Obodrici, Vieleci, Sorbes and few others. They were bordering with Francia. Czechs are closer to Francia than Poland too.

That the clan of the anthypatos and patrikios Michael, son of Visevitz, archon of the Zachlumians, came from the unbaptized inhabitants on the Visla River, called Litziki, and they settled on the river called Zachluma (South Dalmatia) ...

Alois Jirásek believed that this was the original homeland of the Slavs - north of the Tatra Mountains and the basin of the Vistula. The first chapter of the Old Czech Legends begins: In the Tatras, in the plains of the river Vistula, stretched from time immemorial Charvátská country, the initial part of the great Slavic homeland
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Is this about ethnogenesis of Slavs? I thought we were talking only about Croats. Unless you also claim that Croats were the original Slavs.

http://www.pgsa.org/images/AtlasMaps/Atlas2W.jpg


View attachment 7258
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Please don't insult my inteligence. This map was made in 2004 by someone from Polish Geographical Society of America. It says in left upper corner. I asked for pre 1780 map, before A-H propaganda messed things up.

80 percent of Croatian Serbs who came to America were declared themselves as Croats under the race because they come from Austro Hungary ..hhahaahha what about those who identified themselves as Serbs... people are not sheep that can not say who they are ...
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It doesn't matter what they said at the border, it mattered what was written in their documents. These people are dead now and can't tell you exactly their ethnicity. I know cases that grand grand children claim to be White Croats from Poland, because they have found A-H old document which says that their grandfather was White Croat. It is confusion for many people now. You got confused too.
I'm telling you that there are no pre A-H Empire documents or maps showing White Croatia in Poland. Give it up.
 
Here you have the genealogy tree of John Paul II back to the 1700s:

The Genealogy Tree of Pope John Paul II:

JPII_Genealogy.png


Going back just to great-great-grandparents shows that they were born in the following areas:

Czaniec
Bulowice
Datynie
Błędowice
Biała
Lipnik
Magnuszew
Cudnów
Godów

These are places from the regions of Lesser Poland, Silesia, Volhynia and Mazovia.

So they came from all over. But all of them were ethnic Poles.
 
What does family tree with fact that his mother is White Croatian origin...
 
"But if they have mutation I2a1b2a1a S17250 they are White Croatian origin...It is the logic."

What's the logic with that?There is only one logic :aDNA.
 
hrvat22 said:
What does family tree with fact that his mother is White Croatian origin...
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There was no such a thing as White Croatians in the 1800s.

And her father was from Mazovia, born near Szczebrzeszyn.

BTW, Lithuanian nationalists claim that JPII's mother was Lithuanian (based on some of her great-great-great... grandparent born near the Latvian-Lithuanian boundary), Ukrainian nationalists claim that she was Ukrainian (based on her great-grandfather Jan Malinowski who was from Volhynia), Zionists claim that she had Jewish roots (based on surname of Jan Scholz), and you claim White Croatian.

In reality she was Polish and all of her ancestors from the 1700s onwards were ethnic Poles, who lived in various regions.
 
LeBrok said:
Tatars are mentioned my any authors, Ukrainians, Kashubians, Belorussians, etc, but not Croats.
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Kashubians were just a branch of Poles - read Klaus-Dieter Kreplin, "Über Kaschuben", 2001:

http://www.studienstelleog.de/download/HG1.pdf

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...de/download/HG1.pdf+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=pl

"(...) Dr. Lorentz mag alle Danziger Archive nach imaginären einheimischen Kaszuben durchstöbern lassen, das Ergebnis wird gleich Null sein; wohl aber lesen wir in Handfesten Ausdrücke wie: Dutsche oder Polene (1341, Lauenburg), Gerichtsbarkeit über die polnischen Einwohner (1356, Pasitz und Rosenberg), unser polensche Leute (1438, Roslasin). Der ostpommersche Adel hatte in Bütow und Lauenburg „polenisches“ Ritterrecht, die „polenschen“ Dörfer leisteten ihre polnischen Dienste usw. R. Cramer, den man gerade wegen seines Pseudokaszubismus[11] in den Mitteilungen so überschwenglich gepriesen hat, erwähnt diesen tiefgehenden kulturellen Einfluß des Polentums zur Ordenszeit mit keiner Silbe, das phantastische „Cassubentum“ - ein Anachronismus - macht die Lektüre seines Werkes geradezu ungenießbar. (...)"
 
mother of Pope John Paul II declaring white Croatian Women .. It is an irrefutable fact
 
Number of people declaring Croatian ethnicity in southern Poland is... zero.

It is some fairy tale and you have not provided any evidence that she declared herself as Croatian.
 
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