What Are Slavic countries?

[Johannes]

Germany assimilated Old Prussians,Prussians were Germanic-Baltic people.

The Prussians were indeed assimilated but the majority of the Prussians perished during the crusades against them by the Germans. Most of the one who perished were males. The struggles between them were not pleasant. They did not kiss and decide to mate like friends. Prussians and Germans were arch enemies until the Germans prevailed. Its the same with the Wends, Oborites, and the Sorbs. I do not mean "ethnically cleansed" to be whole sale slaughter (like a holocaust). It means killing but also emigration and assimilation.

 

[Johannes]

These are Slavic haplotypes so I'm going to leave these here.
I know that East Germany was a little stretch but we are all a hybrid of some culture or another aren't we.


http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a-M458.png
http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a-Y93.png


Do you have a source for such a massacre

The Slavic DNA you showed are probably from the Indo-European invasions of Europe from what is now Ukraine. If you can find a subclade of R1a that is only 1500 years old then its probably Slavic. Otherwise its probably 4,000 years old.

By "massacre" I did not mean total slaughter, like a holocaust or something similar. During the 200 year crusade of the Germans against the pagan Slavs there were many massacres and I believe the ones who suffered great losses were Slav males. The women were assimilated and the surviving males as well. But remember that defeated peoples do not always stay in one place. There were also emigrations to Poland, Moravia and to other places to get away from the Germans. Warfare during the Middle Ages was ugly and brutal. The same thing happened to the Prussians and Berbers of Muslim Spain. The Berbers were lucky in that they could get on a boat and sail several miles into their homes in Africa and be safe. But for the Prussians they had no place to go. Poland was Christian. Only Lithuania, but the king quickly converted after the conquest of Prussia.

I got my sources from books before the internet was created. There is a book I read (I forgot the author's name) which deals with the Nazi attack and lebensraum in the East. Its called "Drang Nach Osten: The Nazi Drive to the East" or something like that. The Nazis wanted to repeat what their ancestors did to the Slavs and Prussians during the Middle Ages. It was a rationalization as to why the Germans had to move and settle in the east and why they needed to exterminate the majority of Poles and Russians. There is no way of knowing how many Slavs were killed but it must have been large. The other sources are readings in German History and History of Middle Ages. All deal some way or another with these crusades. I also recommend reading about the Teutonic Knights.

 

[Johannes]

Mind, that Germans moved to a territory occupied by some other people, mixed with them, and created an additional Germanic layer.

It is your assumption. I would be surprised if they kill them all. Never happened in history for such large territory. Well before WW2.
They conquered locals and turned them into cultural Germans. We also can say the same about Slavs moving there in 6-8th century. They conquered Germans and made them culturally Slavic. Genome of East Germans should express all this complicated history.
From 6 to 10 century AD it was Slavic. On smaller scale in many places there for much longer. In Sorbs territory till today."

I never mean to say "kill them all." What I mean by ethnic cleansing is eradication of the culture and most of the inhabitants. The Slavic tribes were never so numerous and they were scattered and disorganized -- easy pray for the Germans. Most of the males were killed in battles and massacres. The females were assimilated but also many fled. The "Germanized" Slavs were the offspring of German males and Slav females. So yes the Germans did inherit Slav DNA but not in significant amounts and most of it was from the female side. The same can be said of the Prussians.

The Slavs never conquered any Germans. The Slavs just moved into the areas that were deserted by the Goths, Burgundians, Saxons, Vandals, and Lombards. It took along time to finally settle into what is now eastern Germany. By the 8th century the Slavs were firmly established. However, once the Slavs began to organize their tribes they were attacked by the Saxons. The Slavs were destroyed as a culture because they refused to convert to Christianity. The same with the Prussians.

 

[Johannes]

Lol, former Eastern Germany is not a Slavic country.
Slavic countries:
West Slavic speakers: Poland,Czech Republik ,Slovakia
South Slavic speakers: Bulgaria,FYROM - Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia,Montenegro,Serbia,Bosnia&Herzegovina (known as Bosnia),Croatia,Slovenia
Eastern Slavic speakers: Belarus,Russia,Ukraine
Greeks have few Slavic genes,Romanian are having mostly Slavic genetics,but we speak a Romance language.
The closest languages to Slavic,in Europe,are Lavian and Lithuanian,which both are part of Balto-Slavic branch of IE languages.
After Latvian and Lithuanian,Romanian also have around 20% of the words common to Slavic languages.

Another thing,about "good looking Slavic women" - that is a myth.
Some Ukrainian and Russian women are looking very good,but when Ukraine has like 45 millions people and Russia,almost 150 millions,is normal that you find some very good looking women between these.
Also,Eastern Slavic women are having softer face lines,like smaller nose,etc.

The main reason why Slavic women are very attractive is that they keep their figures toned. The reason for this is that they do not drive everywhere and do not eat high fat food like the women in the west do. This is not to say western women are decadent: its that Slavic women do not make much money and have to live on little food

 

[LeBrok]

Mind, that Germans moved to a territory occupied by some other people, mixed with them, and created an additional Germanic layer.

It is your assumption. I would be surprised if they kill them all. Never happened in history for such large territory. Well before WW2.
They conquered locals and turned them into cultural Germans. We also can say the same about Slavs moving there in 6-8th century. They conquered Germans and made them culturally Slavic. Genome of East Germans should express all this complicated history.
From 6 to 10 century AD it was Slavic. On smaller scale in many places there for much longer. In Sorbs territory till today."

I never mean to say "kill them all." What I mean by ethnic cleansing is eradication of the culture and most of the inhabitants. The Slavic tribes were never so numerous and they were scattered and disorganized -- easy pray for the Germans. Most of the males were killed in battles and massacres.

Well, not the kids-male, and kids were more numerous than adults, back then.

The females were assimilated but also many fled.

Just women can introduce half of genome to the population. Don't think only about Y-DNA

The "Germanized" Slavs were the offspring of German males and Slav females.

Technically, that would count for half "Slavic" genome.

So yes the Germans did inherit Slav DNA but not in significant amounts and most of it was from the female side. The same can be said of the Prussians.

You are assuming again that conquered nation was mostly exterminated. The truth is there were quite few knights, compared to the whole population of Prussia. Who would have built so many castles there in such short time, and still feed the nation?

The Slavs never conquered any Germans.

Teutonic Knights were conquered by Polish/Lithuanian army in 1410 and few years later Prussia lost independence to them till 17 hundreds. East Germany was conquered by Russia in 1945. Surprisingly, since then many Germans have love affair with Russian Culture.

The Slavs just moved into the areas that were deserted by the Goths, Burgundians, Saxons, Vandals, and Lombards.[/QUOTE] Not deserted but severely depopulated. The closer West the lesser depopulation. Unfortunately what happened then we can only guess from archaeology and in future from genetics. These were Dark Ages and not much anything written survived.

It took along time to finally settle into what is now eastern Germany.

Why did it take long time, if in your eyes it was deserted? Maybe they needed to battle someone for this land? And if yes, they were Germans/Germanics there for sure. Not much info though, damn Dark Ages.

By the 8th century the Slavs were firmly established. However, once the Slavs began to organize their tribes they were attacked by the Saxons. The Slavs were destroyed as a culture because they refused to convert to Christianity. The same with the Prussians.

Sure, I'm glad these days are over in Europe. But why did you use word destroyed? Obviously they were conquered and assimilated. It was never wise to kill off all taxpayers and labour force even in Middle Ages. Germany/Holly Roman Empire was rather multi ethnic, and as such didn't have policy of ethnic cleansing. Once a nation was conquered, there was no logical, ethical, economical reason to exterminate a population.

 

[Johannes]

Well, not the kids-male, and kids were more numerous than adults, back then.

Just women can introduce half of genome to the population. Don't think only about Y-DNA

Technically, that would count for half "Slavic" genome.


You are assuming again that conquered nation was mostly exterminated. The truth is there were quite few knights, compared to the whole population of Prussia. Who would have built so many castles there in such short time, and still feed the nation?

Teutonic Knights were conquered by Polish/Lithuanian army in 1410 and few years later Prussia lost independence to them till 17 hundreds. East Germany was conquered by Russia in 1945. Surprisingly, since then many Germans have love affair with Russian Culture.

The Slavs just moved into the areas that were deserted by the Goths, Burgundians, Saxons, Vandals, and Lombards.

Not deserted but severely depopulated. The closer West the lesser depopulation. Unfortunately what happened then we can only guess from archaeology and in future from genetics. These were Dark Ages and not much anything written survived.


Why did it take long time, if in your eyes it was deserted? Maybe they needed to battle someone for this land? And if yes, they were Germans/Germanics there for sure. Not much info though, damn Dark Ages.

Sure, I'm glad these days are over in Europe. But why did you use word destroyed? Obviously they were conquered and assimilated. It was never wise to kill off all taxpayers and labour force even in Middle Ages. Germany/Holly Roman Empire was rather multi ethnic, and as such didn't have policy of ethnic cleansing. Once a nation was conquered, there was no logical, ethical, economical reason to exterminate a population.[/QUOTE]

LeBrok -- I forgot to mention slavery. War during the Middle Ages was brutal and most of the losers were enslaved. Thus very few Germans married Slavic women. I can only infer that Slavic women were used as servants. I am not denying that beautiful Slavic women were made into concubines or married. but the point is that it was limited. So I doubt the Slavs would have constituted "half the genome" during the crusades. Besides the DNA evidence of Germans shows Slav DNA as low.

LeBrok: You are assuming the Slav-Prussian population was huge. Not so. The population of Germans compared to Slavs and Prussians was at least 10 to 1. The Germans were packed into what is now West Germany. When the Germans had an opportunity they poured into conquered territories and took over the native population (who were pagan). For example, most of the towns and castles were built and inhabited by Germans. This is why Eastern Germany, Pomerania, Prussia and Silesia became "German."

The Teutonic Knights were defeated but never conquered by the Polish-Lithuanians. The Polish king tried to take over the castles but when he found out he could not he made a treaty with them and made them "vassals." But this was only one way to reduce the threat of the Germans. East Germany was "conquered" by Soviet Union but they would have never done so without the help of the USA. Most Soviets were Slavs but I don't see it as a conquest like the Middle Ages. No Russian baby was allowed to be born during 1945-46. All were aborted. And Germans continued as before.

OK so some Germans remained and became "Slavic." So what? This means nothing because the Germans came back and regained all territories up to the Oder and beyond.

LeBrok: the historical record does not mention any Slavs until the 7-8th centuries. The distance between the Elbe and Vistula is about 800 miles. Do you think the Slavs had cars and trucks to move a lot of people so fast? Slavs never even knew there existed land in the west. They were simple farmers who followed their herds and eventually stumbled into former German territory. But it must have taken 200 years to settle into villages and organized towns. They did not have an organized state compared to the Germans. Unfortunately, the Germans saw a chance and decided to move east and attacked them. The Germans tried again in the 20th century.

The word "destroyed" means the Slavic culture was obliterated. It was until recently that Germans archeaologists have unearthed Slavic villages and towns. Remember the Germans were much more numerous than the Slavs. This explains why the occupied territories were repopulated so easily by Germans. Try to imagine the struggle between the Americans and Indians. Very similar in my opinion. I am sure the population of Slavs was no more than 100,000 before the slaughter. If you put 6 million Germans against 100-200,000 Slavs (the same with Prussians) you can imagine the results. Thus most of the tax payers were German peasants.

The Holy Roman Empire began after these events. The Poles saw what happened to the West Slavs and converted to Christianity during the 8-9th century (I forget) . This was done because only the Pope could protect them against the land-greedy Germans. The Prussians and Lithuanians were too stupid to convert. Thus the Prussians lost their lands. The Lithuanians almost did but finally the doltish King of Lithuania saw the light and converted to Christianity just like the Polish Miesko I. Otherwise the Teutonic Knights would have taken their lands as well.

 

[Johannes]

Germany assimilated Old Prussians,Prussians were Germanic-Baltic people.

Prussians were not Germanic. They were Baltic but closer to Slavs linguistically and culturally. However, as phonotypes there was very little difference.

 

[mihaitzateo]

Well I see in Eastern Germany 20% R1A or so,I was supposing most of this R1A is coming from assimilated Prussians.
Also Old Prussians should have had I1 so some of the I1 from Eastern Germany should be from assimilated Prussians.
What I wanted to tell is that most Eastern European genes from Eastern Germany are coming from Old Prussians,not from Slavs.

 

[Johannes]

Well I see in Eastern Germany 20% R1A or so,I was supposing most of this R1A is coming from assimilated Prussians.
Also Old Prussians should have had I1 so some of the I1 from Eastern Germany should be from assimilated Prussians.
What I wanted to tell is that most Eastern European genes from Eastern Germany are coming from Old Prussians,not from Slavs.

Most of the R1a in East Germany comes from the Indo-European invasions (Aryans). Germany is a genetic barrier because the R1a people were stopped in their tracks by R1b and I peoples. They are the same as in Iberia were R1b is 60-80% and in North Africa E1bib is 60-80%.

 

[Johannes]

These are Slavic haplotypes so I'm going to leave these here.
I know that East Germany was a little stretch but we are all a hybrid of some culture or another aren't we.


http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a-M458.png
http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a-Y93.png


Do you have a source for such a massacre

This shows that R1a- is not Slavic but Germanic-Celtic. Now on the other hand R1a M458 is very interesting because it is West Slavic. It ranges form 10-30%. That is significant. But it is found in very small areas. So yes there was Slavic DNA absorbed by Germanics.

 

[LeBrok]

Most of the R1a in East Germany comes from the Indo-European invasions (Aryans). Germany is a genetic barrier because the R1a people were stopped in their tracks by R1b and I peoples. They are the same as in Iberia were R1b is 60-80% and in North Africa E1bib is 60-80%.

I'm sorry, but you pick snippets from history and science, that you read, and are trying to fit your ideal vision of "history" or some agenda. Aryan, is the Irdo-Iranian tribe of Middle East. They never ever were in Europe.

 

[Hauteville]

Greeks aren't a Slavic people, their language has nothing to do with Slavs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_languages

 

[Tomenable]

This shows that R1a- is not Slavic but Germanic-Celtic.

That label "Celto-Germanic" only describes CTS4385 / L664 subclades, not entire R1a.

These subclades are present in North-Western Europe. And Germanic subclade Z284 is mostly in Scandinavia.

Most of the R1a in East Germany comes from the Indo-European invasions (Aryans).

Indo-European =/= Aryan. Aryan = Indo-Iranic, they were only one of several branches of Indo-Europeans.

"Aryan" only applies to Indo-Iranic subclade Z93. And this one is not common in Europe.

Indo-European, on the other hand, is everything descended from M198 / M417.

Most of R1a in Germany belongs to subclades of R1a common in Slavic and Baltic countries.

Greeks aren't a Slavic people, their language has nothing to do with Slavs.

Besides the DNA evidence of Germans shows Slav DNA as low.

Nope. Vast majority of R1a in Germany belongs to M458 and Z280 - so it is no different than Slavic clades of R1a.

Polish people have both of these subclades, in proportions roughly between 40-60 and 60-40 (depending on sample).

So Germans have a lot of Slavic ancestry. And also some, but much less, of Baltic (Old Prussian & Lithuanian) ancestry.

Greeks aren't a Slavic people, their language has nothing to do with Slavs.

You should decide whether we are talking about language or about ancestry / genetic origins.

Modern Greeks are partially of Slavic origin, because a lot of Slavs used to be assimilated by them - check this thread:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?131244-The-Slavs-in-Greece

That thread was started by Scholarios Chiotis, who is an ethnic Greek user, by the way.

 

[Tomenable]

Well I see in Eastern Germany 20% R1A or so,I was supposing most of this R1A is coming from assimilated Prussians.

From Prussians? Nope. Much more Slavs were Germanized in history than Prussians - so most of this is from Slavs. And Prussians were - like other Balts - rich in N1c. By comparison only 1% of modern Germans have N, according to Eupedia. If Prussians were - like Lithuanians and Latvians - about 50/50 (or rather 40/40) N1c/R1a, then no more than 1% of R1a in Germany comes from them.

Assuming that all or nearly all of N in Germany is from Prussians.

What I wanted to tell is that most Eastern European genes from Eastern Germany are coming from Old Prussians,not from Slavs.

As I explained above, this is impossible. First of all, Germans should have much more N1c if that was the case.

Moreover, there were ca. 400,000 - 500,000 Slavs living in areas west of the Oder alone (in what is now East Germany). Add to this West Slavic tribes who lived east of the Oder and were also - not fully, but partially - gradually Germanized. Lechithic (Polish) tribes in Silesia (Sleenzane, Dadodesani, Opolini, Golensizi, Poborane and Trebouane*) numbered ca. 200,000 according to Ludwik Krzywicki. Add to this also Slavic tribes in Western Pomerania - probably another 100,000 (though this is a guesstimate). In total 700,000 - 800,000.

By contrast entire population of Old Prussians was only about 170,000 (or 150,000 - 200,000) in year 1220 AD.

There was also a lot of immigration to East Prussia throughout history, including not just Germans:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ussian-Germans?p=448429&viewfull=1#post448429

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31223-Slavs-and-Plague?p=457551&viewfull=1#post457551

This chart shows estimated proportions of various genealogical / ethnic ancestries:

tribes in Silesia (Sleenzane, Dadodesani, Opolini, Golensizi, Poborane and Trebouane*)

*Their location:

In Lower Silesia:

1. Sleenzane (Ślężanie) - around Wroclaw and at the Sleza river, and Mt. Sleza
2. Dadodesani (Dziadoszanie) - in the region around Glogow
3. Poborane (Bobrzanie) - along the lower and middle course of the Bobr river
4. Trebouane (Trzebowianie) - in the region around Legnica

In Upper Silesia:

5. Opolini (Opolanie) - in Upper Silesia, in the region of Opole
6. Golensizi (Gołęszyce) - in the region of Raciborz-Cieszyn-Opawa

================================

I started a thread about Y-DNA haplogroups of Germans from areas east of the Oder River:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...-from-Silesia-Pomerania-Pomerelia-and-Prussia

 

[Johannes]

That label "Celto-Germanic" only describes CTS4385 / L664 subclades, not entire R1a.

These subclades are present in North-Western Europe. And Germanic subclade Z284 is mostly in Scandinavia.



Indo-European =/= Aryan. Aryan = Indo-Iranic, they were only one of several branches of Indo-Europeans.

"Aryan" only applies to Indo-Iranic subclade Z93. And this one is not common in Europe.

Indo-European, on the other hand, is everything descended from M198 / M417.

Most of R1a in Germany belongs to subclades of R1a common in Slavic and Baltic countries.

Greeks aren't a Slavic people, their language has nothing to do with Slavs.



Nope. Vast majority of R1a in Germany belongs to M458 and Z280 - so it is no different than Slavic clades of R1a.

Polish people have both of these subclades, in proportions roughly between 40-60 and 60-40 (depending on sample).

So Germans have a lot of Slavic ancestry. And also some, but much less, of Baltic (Old Prussian & Lithuanian) ancestry.



You should decide whether we are talking about language or about ancestry / genetic origins.

Modern Greeks are partially of Slavic origin, because a lot of Slavs used to be assimilated by them - check this thread:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?131244-The-Slavs-in-Greece

That thread was started by Scholarios Chiotis, who is an ethnic Greek user, by the way.

I mean to say Myceneans were "Aryan" in differentiating them from the aboriginal "Greeks" who did not speak and Indo-Europeans language. Germans dont have a lot of Slavic DNA as I already showed you its only 10-30% (M458). The 30% is found in a small area near the Polish border. 50-70% will be a lot. Therefore East Germans, although they have significant amounts -- average 20% -- does not mean a lot. What are you trying to make Germans into Slavs?

 

[Johannes]

That label "Celto-Germanic" only describes CTS4385 / L664 subclades, not entire R1a.

These subclades are present in North-Western Europe. And Germanic subclade Z284 is mostly in Scandinavia.



Indo-European =/= Aryan. Aryan = Indo-Iranic, they were only one of several branches of Indo-Europeans.

"Aryan" only applies to Indo-Iranic subclade Z93. And this one is not common in Europe.

Indo-European, on the other hand, is everything descended from M198 / M417.

Most of R1a in Germany belongs to subclades of R1a common in Slavic and Baltic countries.

Greeks aren't a Slavic people, their language has nothing to do with Slavs.



Nope. Vast majority of R1a in Germany belongs to M458 and Z280 - so it is no different than Slavic clades of R1a.

Polish people have both of these subclades, in proportions roughly between 40-60 and 60-40 (depending on sample).

So Germans have a lot of Slavic ancestry. And also some, but much less, of Baltic (Old Prussian & Lithuanian) ancestry.



You should decide whether we are talking about language or about ancestry / genetic origins.

Modern Greeks are partially of Slavic origin, because a lot of Slavs used to be assimilated by them - check this thread:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?131244-The-Slavs-in-Greece

That thread was started by Scholarios Chiotis, who is an ethnic Greek user, by the way.

Where do you get these figures of 800,000 Slavs traveling from the Vistula-Bug Rivers 600 miles to East Germany along the Elbe river???? It seems the Slavs were like the Chinese with such a high amount of people. Either way N1c1 is a Siberian DNA and its common among the North Russians, Karelians and Finns (including many Siberians). The Balts could have easily absorbed N1c1 long after the Germans conquered by the Lithuanians/Latvians. If we are talking about 6-9th centuries then the Balts had little or no contact with Siberians. The distance between Eastern Germany and northern Russia (around the Moscow region) is 1,000 miles. So I doubt the ancient Balts had much N1c1 in them. Either way Eastern Germans do not have a lot of Slav DNA. Eastern Germany is a genetic barrier to Slavs.'

 

[Tomenable]

M458

R1a-M458 is not the only Slavic subclade of R1a.

R1a-Z280 is also Slavic, as I wrote above. Poles have equal proportions of M458 and Z280.

Therefore East Germans

People in Germany are so mixed that you can find a lot of people of East German origin near the Rhine River as well.

Especially "proper East Germans", i.e. those who came in 1944-1946 from former German areas.

Germans dont have a lot of Slavic DNA

They have quite a lot of DNA absorbed from Slavs.

Check how much they have of I1 and R1b-U106 for a comparison - also not that much.

I mean to say Myceneans were "Aryan" in differentiating them from the aboriginal "Greeks"

"Aboriginal" people of Greece were not Greeks. They had other ethnonyms.

Eastern Germany is a genetic barrier to Slavs.

Eastern Germany used to be Pagan Slavic land, which was - for some time - a barrier to German expansion.

And today they are no barriers - there has been a lot of Slavic immigration to West Germany during the last 200 years.

There is still a lot of Slavic immigration to Germay. For example my cousin lives in Hanover, and her husband is also Polish.

 

[Tomenable]

This is based on data from Kalevi Wiik's study - green shows cities with over 20% R1a inhabitants:

 

[Hauteville]

I think that the OP for Slavic countries means the Slavic speaking language.

 

[Tomenable]

Where do you get these figures of 800,000 Slavs traveling from the Vistula-Bug Rivers 600 miles to East Germany

I posted numbers of Slavic population few centuries after migration. By that time they already increased in numbers in all areas where they lived. For example in the cradle of Polish state, the region of Wielkopolska, population density increased from ca. 2-3 people per one km2 in the 600s, to ca. 4-9 in year 1000. This is estimated density, based on archaeological and palynological data, and written records:

1) Population density in Wielkopolska during the 600s-700s:

2) Population density in Wielkopolska around year 1000 AD: