What Are Slavic countries?

1. Subclades of R1a and R1b typical for these European language groups today:

a) Correlating with Germanic languages:

R1a Y2395 - formed around 4900 (5500-4400), TMRCA around 4500 (5100-3800) ybp: http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y2395/
R1a Z284 - formed around 4500 (5100-3800), TMRCA around 4200 (4700-3700) ybp: http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y2395/

b1) Correlating with Germanic and Celtic languages:

R1b U106 - formed around 4900 (5400-4500), TMRCA around 4900 (5400-4500) ybp: http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-U106/

b2) Correlating with Celtic and Germanic languages:


R1a CTS4385 - formed around 5400 (6200-4700), TMRCA around 4600 (5600-3700) ybp: http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-CTS4385/

c) Correlating with Italic and Celtic languages:

R1b P312 - formed around 4900 (5400-4500), TMRCA around 4600 (5000-4300) ybp: http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-P312/

d) Correlating with Slavic and Baltic languages:

R1a Z280 - formed around 4900 (5400-4500), TMRCA around 4800 (5400-4200) ybp: http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z280/
R1a PF6155 - formed around 4900 (5500-4400), TMRCA around 4500 (5500-3700) ybp: http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-PF6155/
R1a M458 - formed around 4600 (5500-3700), TMRCA around 4500 (5300-3700) ybp: http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-PF6155/

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2. When "proto languages" ancestral to these linguistic groups split from each other:

According to the study by Chang 2015, proto-Balto-Slavic, proto-Italo-Celtic and proto-Germanic languages split ca. 5000-4500 years ago.

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It seems that time when those subclades split seems to correlate well with time when languages split.

Or rather proto-languages (even pre-proto-languages; but still ancestral to respective modern language groups).

By the way I am thankful for your new information. Your information is very informative. I agree withy our analysis. Its seems the languages seem to have diverged around the time of the Indo-European invasions into Europe. However, look at the dates: it seems all these subclades are traced to the invasions of Indo-Europeans around 2,000 BCE and does not make them "Slavic" (I mean as far as Eastern Germany). Slavs as a people or culture did not come into history until the 8th century AD. So these are clearly not "Slavic" but "Indo-European." What do you mean "correlating with Slavic languages?" We dont no about the Slavic language being developed around 3000-2500 BCE. Or maybe you can enlighten me?
 
How about because it's a total misuse of the word and shows an abysmal ignorance about genetics, history and linguistics? Will that do?

Aryans are Indo-Aryans, i.e. people who spoke Indo-Aryan languages. Genetically they are very far removed from Germans or Poles or whomever you visualize when you decide to misuse the word. Is that simple enough?

"abysmal ignorance about genetics, history and linguistics?" As if I am a total ignorant: Your arrogance is suffocating... Stop answering my posts. Go somewhere else and insult someone else. I dont learn nothing from you.
 
matbir: its not guesses. Its what I have read in history books. You are a Pole so I am assuming you have different sources as I do (I am American). I am not denying that your data is important but have you ever wondered that the R1a found in Germany might also be from invasions from the east by Indo-Europeans? Germans and Slavs and Celts all probably looked the same or very similar before they diverged into different languages? You state that its a "Slavic marker" but how do you know?
Then you've read historical novel rather then scientific work. Sources are the same, everything is written in medieval records which are the base of work for every historian, and it doesn't matter where historian is working in US or in Poland.
I did not say that R1a is Slavic marker, but after analysis of haplotypes in Poland and Germany there is strong signal of common ancestry for many Eastern Germans and Poles. It would be the signature of Corded Ware settlers, if the theory of Slavic migrations from Ukraine to Poland and eastern Germany was wrong. So by now I think that some migration have taken place, future surveys will tell how it was in the past.
 
Uralic and Indo-European did not just come into contact with each other - they descent from a common ancestral language.

BTW - when it comes to Mesolithic hunters, they were small in numbers, but they were highly mobile groups of people. For example Kennewick Man died near Kennewick, but he spent most of his life ca. 400 km to the west, near the Pacific coast, as his diet suggests.

Eastern European hunters such as R1a-M459 and R1b-L278 were probably also very mobile people, just like Kennewick Man.

Let me doupt,
IE show connectivity with Uralic but also with Summerian,
but Uralic show no connectivity with Summerian


If IE and Uralic came from same language, then in Hindi Avestan Greco-Aryan etc we would have Uralic, but observation does not show such in a respective degree,
on controversary, even in North IE languages we observe Summerian,
there are much more like the future tenses, which differ Uralic from IE,


http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31207-Sumerian-and-Indo-European?highlight=Summerian

Turkic show also conectivity with IE, this does mean that came from same language


personally I believe that IE homeland was around Summerian and met Uralic when expand, that is why Northern IE languages show enough Uralic but also Summrian, but not 'old' ones south of Caucas parallel/latitude


to expand more
Meshech (endonym of Leucosyrroi, means nation) Moeschoi Myscian Mycenane Muca Mac
Kur Korphe Goranje
tar tartaros dark
etc

on controversary how many Uralic you will find in Hindi Avestan Greek Armenian?
 
It depends on WHO is looking. Unfortunately. Linguistics is not math, more like probabilities.

Also Sumer is, correct me if I am wrong, attested in written language post bronze age?

Edit: I meant post Yamnaya not post bronze age.
 
Then you've read historical novel rather then scientific work. Sources are the same, everything is written in medieval records which are the base of work for every historian, and it doesn't matter where historian is working in US or in Poland.
I did not say that R1a is Slavic marker, but after analysis of haplotypes in Poland and Germany there is strong signal of common ancestry for many Eastern Germans and Poles. It would be the signature of Corded Ware settlers, if the theory of Slavic migrations from Ukraine to Poland and eastern Germany was wrong. So by now I think that some migration have taken place, future surveys will tell how it was in the past.

Dont give me this BS about novels. I have read extensively about European history. You have not proven that Poles are similar to Eastern Germans. You only speculated: you need to try harder (I know you Poles are very nationalistic).
 
It depends on WHO is looking. Unfortunately. Linguistics is not math, more like probabilities.

Also Sumer is, correct me if I am wrong, attested in written language post bronze age?

Edit: I meant post Yamnaya not post bronze age.

my intension is to show that IE and Uralic are not the same, neither are brotherlike languages,
as stated,
IE is not Summerian also,
but on how loans are spread in IE by these 2 , at least for me show a more south of Caucas latitude possibility,
Besides IE is an Asiatic language, that become European
the Yamnaa at least for me is how it entered Europe, the arsenic bronze road, which start from Maykob etc etc
we all recogn and discuss Yamna, which is North of Caucas, but not Gedrosia which is south of Caucas?
besides comparing IE among them we see the big difference among them
the 2 genders IE languages, Hettit for example
the 6 aparemphaton 7 cases etc with 1 aparemphaton and 5 cases
some of them still exist in IE languages,
but Future tenses?
 
Updated version of my R1a tree - this time I added also R1b:

With a timeline, as well as proposed ethno-linguistic associations for its branches:

Large version (link): http://s7.postimg.org/6gf8nevmx/PIE_Tree.png

Small version:

PIE_Tree_Small.png
 
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I'm not sure about M458 and Z280. Most likely these subclades aren't exclusively Slavic and / or exclusively Balto-Slavic.

But I'm not sure with what other linguistic branches can they be associated - apparently these branches are extinct by now.

However, for example M458 could be partially Hellenic (or Graeco-Phrygian), and Z280 could be partially Armenian.

Then of course some of the Indo-European groups listed at the bottom come to mind (Daco-Thracians, Cimmerians, etc.).
 
Dont give me this BS about novels. I have read extensively about European history. You have not proven that Poles are similar to Eastern Germans. You only speculated: you need to try harder (I know you Poles are very nationalistic).
I didn't proved it, but Rębała did. I provided you his article. I will quote it if you wish, but it was your homework to get to know the evidence:
As both the Sorbs and Kashubes are historically the most closely related to the extinct Slavic tribes of eastern Germany and none directly contributed to the modern German population of Mecklenburg, it was assumed that the population of Mecklenburg resulted from admixture of western German (Bavarian as a proxy), Sorbian and Kashubian populations. All the ancestry estimates were the highest for the western German population (Supplementary Table S3). On the other hand, admixture analysis failed to detect considerable German ancestry in paternal lineages of genetic outliers detected in the MDS analysis, that is, the Sorbs and Kashubes (Supplementary Table S4). After inclusion of data from German regional populations studied by Kayser et al,3 the Slavic (Sorbian or Kashubian) ancestry estimates mR, mW and mY for the pooled eastern German populations (n=678) in comparison with the pooled western German populations (n=886) ranged from 0.182 to 0.261.
-suplementary info
So he estimated admixture (supplementary table 4) for sample from Mecklenburg as 1.2%; 18.8% and 12.4% using Kashubia, Lusatia and Bavaria. When he added Kayser’s samples received 18.2-26.1% of Slavic ancestry. I think that next studies will have more pre-WWII populations to comparison, so the results will be more appropriate.
Samples used in this survey:
1. In table 4
R1a: Bavaria (n=218) 12.4%; Mecklenburg (n=131) 13.7%; Kaszuby (n=204) 61.8%; Sorbs (n=123) 65.0%
Slavic admixture in Mecklenburg 1.2% or 18.8% or 12.4%
2. With Kaysers samples
R1a: Western Germany (n=886) 12.6%; Eastern Germany (n=678) 22.3% Kashubians and Sorbs as above.
Slavic admixture in Eastern Germany 18.2-26.1%


Even though the Kayser’s data was not collected from people whose paternal lineage was in the place before WWII, so it included Germans from Poland and Eastern Europe, it showed about 20% admixture of populations like Kashubians or Sorbs. Western German population was poorer in R1a before population movement after WW2. Percentages of expellees in western Germny you can find on pages 42 and 43 in “Population of the Federal Republic of Germany and West Berlin”.

I believe that R1a was spread Corded Ware period, but it also was dragged every ware where Slavic people decided to stay. If R1a in Germany is mostly of Corded Ware descent then there should be specific German subclades of R1a because of time of origin of Z282 around 2900 BCA. There are some clades that are older than Z280 and M458 or specific to that area - Z282*, L644, Z284, but they are less numerous then Z280 and M458. Last two clades are specific to whole central-eastern Europe, this suggest its later arrival then Corded Ware period. Alternative hypothesis are: 1. Slavic migration which outnumbered previous Germanic population so much that even Lusatian Sorbs seems to have no Germanic admixture. 2. Eastern Germany and Poland before Slavic migrations was already area of different genetic makeup much closer related paternally to populations from Dnieper basin then from Rhine basin or Jutland. If so we should expect Eastern Germanic tribes to be more like modern Poles genetically then like any Germanic population.
In coming years we will see more and more results about modern and ancient DNA and I hope this case will be solved soon.
Personally I think the most probable scenario is close to the second one, that in Central Europe population is stable genetically from early Iron Age - Lusatian culture - until Ostsiedlung in 12th century.

Edit:
Do not forget about Ruhrpolen their presence also raised ratio of R1a in Western Germany what is seen in Kayser's results where Cologne has 15.8% of R1a while Muenster Have only 7.8% the same for Mainz 8.4%.

Edit 2:
(I know you Poles are very nationalistic).
Are you trying to tell me that Poles are nationalistic, because you don't know when and how Polabian Slavs ware subjugated to Saxons and Danes?

Expellees in Germany were mostly located in northern Land including Mecklenburg and Schleswig-Holstein so the high R1a ratio in Rostock is probably result of immigration of Germans from eastern Europe, while the same ratio in Saxony is probably autochthonous.
Here is map showing percentages of displaced population in lands until 1950:
Karte_Vertriebene.jpg
Next important thing is that mass migration inside Germany didn’t stop until 1961 when inner border was closed. By that time about 3,5 mln people moved from DDR to Western Germany.
Here is link to site where in the bottom is table showing increase of expellees among people in western Germany. E.g. Nordrhein-Westfalen in 1950 10% but in 1961 20%.
This process certainly influenced Rębała’s results in measurement of Slavic admixture in Eastern Germany by increasing western German ancestry.
 
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Are there Sumer loans in IE or IE loans in Sumer?

that is a good question,

it might work as vice versa

are the uralic loans in IE loans, or they are IE loans to Uralic,

anyway the loans can be given only to neighborhood, they do not fly,
you can not loan IE word to sub-saharan language, if you do not have contact
 
Yes, and IE tribes were Sumer neighbors AFTER Yamna. If you give enough time after Yamna IE tribes were neighbors to a lot of people....

There are more IE loans in Uralic than vice versa.

I can repeat, although linguistics overall tend to go into one (possibly right) direction, it still depends in WHO is making research on case by case basis.

Especially when it comes to finding relations between long dead languages. On the same topic you gave link there is Finnish researcher who does scientific work to prove....that Sumer was actually FU or at least find common things :)
 
Yes, and IE tribes were Sumer neighbors AFTER Yamna. If you give enough time after Yamna IE tribes were neighbors to a lot of people....

There are more IE loans in Uralic than vice versa.

I can repeat, although linguistics overall tend to go into one (possibly right) direction, it still depends in WHO is making research on case by case basis.

Especially when it comes to finding relations between long dead languages. On the same topic you gave link there is Finnish researcher who does scientific work to prove....that Sumer was actually FU or at least find common things :)

No,
cause if they were after Yamnaa, how come we find Summerian in Northern IE vocabulary,
and we don't find Uralic in Sumerrian?
I understand that you say that IE/Summerian common are loans that entered Summerian,
But in this case shouldn't Uralic pass to Summerian?
so to find Uralic in 'old' IE languages?

if Summerian are after Yamna and have loans from IE, then all South IE must have loans from Uralic,
but is not,
so seems proper that IE took loans from Summer and Uralic,
or in case they loan that is before Yamnaa

possible exception is the case, that Neolithic agricultural boom speakers spoke Summerian,
 
There are Sumerian terms also in Turkic and Arabic languages, etc., as well as in Hebrew:

http://www.quora.com/What-currently...-roots-or-is-most-closely-related-to-Sumerian

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:Terms_derived_from_Sumerian

Those loanwords entered Hebrew either from Akkadian ---> Aramaic or directly from Aramaic:

https://books.google.pl/books?id=So...6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=Sumerian loanwords&f=false

As you can see there is no need for a close neighbourhood in time and / or in space for a loanword to enter.

anyway the loans can be given only to neighborhood

Nope. They don't even need to be adopted from the original language.

For example Hebrew adopted Sumerian loans from Aramaic, Aramaic from Akkadian, and Akkadian from Sumerian.

possible exception is the case, that Neolithic agricultural boom speakers spoke Summerian

Or that they spoke Non-Sumerian but used some Sumerian loanwords, which they later transmitted to others.
 
Yetos, theory Tomenable is speaking about is here:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Uralic_languages
Wiki has main points, critics, answers to critics.
It is a theory with scientists supporters and scientists critics.

But it has nothing to do with Uralic loans into IE. If this theory is correct those are not loans but rather cognates. And as cognates they are present also in Greek.

Maybe another topic is needed under Linguistics to go into details re this theory.
 
I didn't proved it, but Rębała did. I provided you his article. I will quote it if you wish, but it was your homework to get to know the evidence:
-suplementary info
So he estimated admixture (supplementary table 4) for sample from Mecklenburg as 1.2%; 18.8% and 12.4% using Kashubia, Lusatia and Bavaria. When he added Kayser’s samples received 18.2-26.1% of Slavic ancestry. I think that next studies will have more pre-WWII populations to comparison, so the results will be more appropriate.
Samples used in this survey:
1. In table 4
R1a: Bavaria (n=218) 12.4%; Mecklenburg (n=131) 13.7%; Kaszuby (n=204) 61.8%; Sorbs (n=123) 65.0%
Slavic admixture in Mecklenburg 1.2% or 18.8% or 12.4%
2. With Kaysers samples
R1a: Western Germany (n=886) 12.6%; Eastern Germany (n=678) 22.3% Kashubians and Sorbs as above.
Slavic admixture in Eastern Germany 18.2-26.1%


Even though the Kayser’s data was not collected from people whose paternal lineage was in the place before WWII, so it included Germans from Poland and Eastern Europe, it showed about 20% admixture of populations like Kashubians or Sorbs. Western German population was poorer in R1a before population movement after WW2. Percentages of expellees in western Germny you can find on pages 42 and 43 in “Population of the Federal Republic of Germany and West Berlin”.

I believe that R1a was spread Corded Ware period, but it also was dragged every ware where Slavic people decided to stay. If R1a in Germany is mostly of Corded Ware descent then there should be specific German subclades of R1a because of time of origin of Z282 around 2900 BCA. There are some clades that are older than Z280 and M458 or specific to that area - Z282*, L644, Z284, but they are less numerous then Z280 and M458. Last two clades are specific to whole central-eastern Europe, this suggest its later arrival then Corded Ware period. Alternative hypothesis are: 1. Slavic migration which outnumbered previous Germanic population so much that even Lusatian Sorbs seems to have no Germanic admixture. 2. Eastern Germany and Poland before Slavic migrations was already area of different genetic makeup much closer related paternally to populations from Dnieper basin then from Rhine basin or Jutland. If so we should expect Eastern Germanic tribes to be more like modern Poles genetically then like any Germanic population.
In coming years we will see more and more results about modern and ancient DNA and I hope this case will be solved soon.
Personally I think the most probable scenario is close to the second one, that in Central Europe population is stable genetically from early Iron Age - Lusatian culture - until Ostsiedlung in 12th century.

Edit:
Do not forget about Ruhrpolen their presence also raised ratio of R1a in Western Germany what is seen in Kayser's results where Cologne has 15.8% of R1a while Muenster Have only 7.8% the same for Mainz 8.4%.

Edit 2:

Are you trying to tell me that Poles are nationalistic, because you don't know when and how Polabian Slavs ware subjugated to Saxons and Danes?

Expellees in Germany were mostly located in northern Land including Mecklenburg and Schleswig-Holstein so the high R1a ratio in Rostock is probably result of immigration of Germans from eastern Europe, while the same ratio in Saxony is probably autochthonous.
Here is map showing percentages of displaced population in lands until 1950:
View attachment 7276
Next important thing is that mass migration inside Germany didn’t stop until 1961 when inner border was closed. By that time about 3,5 mln people moved from DDR to Western Germany.
Here is link to site where in the bottom is table showing increase of expellees among people in western Germany. E.g. Nordrhein-Westfalen in 1950 10% but in 1961 20%.
This process certainly influenced Rębała’s results in measurement of Slavic admixture in Eastern Germany by increasing western German ancestry.

Yes Matbir -- Eastern Germans DO have Slavic DNA, that is obvious. The Germans lived right next door to them. But your averages come to about 20-25% R1a "Slavic." And you need to take into account that before Slavs and Germans existed the Indo-Europeans peoples were pretty much related. The difference is that Germans eventually became a cross between R1a, R1b and I. BUT 20% is not a lot! You just proved what I have said: 20% R1a is the average for Eastern Germans!


Subclade 282 is ancient: way before Slavs and Germans existed. M458 and Z280 are not truly "Slavic." It could have been German-Baltic-Slavic. Therefore they do not prove that its specifically Slavic.


1. Slavic migrations began during the 6th century AD after the German tribes left for Western and Southern Europe. 2. How do you know? Germans came down from Scandinavia and Denmark in the old days and settled in areas all the way to the Vistula River. "Slavs" lived in the area around the Prypet Marches and Western Ukraine.


I am sure the populations living in Central Europe during the Iron Age looked very similar. But its already proven that German peoples occupied at least half of Poland and all of Germany (Greater Germania) and they mixed with Slavs. BUT in a very limited number.


I told you already that the Slavs were attacked and conquered during the 9th and up to 12th centuries. The were almost ethnically cleansed. Why are you asking me this?
 
Expellees in Germany were mostly located in northern Land including Mecklenburg and Schleswig-Holstein so the high R1a ratio in Rostock is probably result of immigration of Germans from eastern Europe, while the same ratio in Saxony is probably autochthonous.
Here is map showing percentages of displaced population in lands until 1950:
View attachment 7276
Next important thing is that mass migration inside Germany didn’t stop until 1961 when inner border was closed. By that time about 3,5 mln people moved from DDR to Western Germany.
Here is link to site where in the bottom is table showing increase of expellees among people in western Germany. E.g. Nordrhein-Westfalen in 1950 10% but in 1961 20%.
This process certainly influenced Rębała’s results in measurement of Slavic admixture in Eastern Germany by increasing western German ancestry.

Thanks for the links again. They are very helpful to me. But can you please explain to me what you mean by the post? I especially dont understand what you mean by "This process certainly influenced Rębała’s results in measurement of Slavic admixture in Eastern Germany by increasing western German ancestry."
 
Thanks for the links again. They are very helpful to me. But can you please explain to me what you mean by the post? I especially dont understand what you mean by "This process certainly influenced Rębała’s results in measurement of Slavic admixture in Eastern Germany by increasing western German ancestry."
I just meant that owing to post war population movement from former eastern Germany to Western Germany modern West German society absorbed some Slavic admixture. So when you are checking modern Eastern Germans for western German admixture using modern Western German population you will have higher admixture result then when you will be using pre-war Western German population. That is why I think Rębała's percentages of Western German admixture for Kayser's samples are overestimated.
 

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