101 Ancient Eurasian Genomes Available Online

[Tomenable]

Allentoft claimed that only one part of Corded Ware was involved in creating Sintashta.

Corded Ware extended from Central Europe to western regions of European Russia.

So probably that was just one part of Corded Ware, in which Z93 subclade spread.

BTW - there was no replacement because modern Slavs still plot genetically near ancient Sintashta. Check Supplementary Figure 2 on page 33: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v522/n7555/extref/nature14507-s1.pdf

Which means that Balto-Slavs share common ancestors with Indo-Iranians. So rather than some "replacement" it was simply by chance that Z93 migrated east, while Z283 was more western.

Despite different subclades of R1a, both Corded Ware groups were genetically similar.

Even today West Slavs and some of South Slavs are close to ancient Sintashta (link above).

Modern East Slavs and Balts plot farther away than other Slavs possibly due to mixing with Ugro-Finns.

Ugro-Finns (red color in the map below) inhabited much more land in the 800s than today. As you can see nearly all of European Russia was mostly or partially Ugro-Finnic at that time:

http://s17.postimg.org/mcrd7o52n/900.jpg

 

[Alan]

Dear Alan

Ok let's stop this discussion and let's wait further developments.
My predictions are this.
You will see a lot off regional disparities in West Asia, especially the Northern mountainous part. And we will not find any R1b-Z2103 in Neolithic. Even Copper Age.

my prediction based on the contemporary data and history is this, we will not find any SWA admixture prior to Bronze Age. We will most likely find R1b which predates the Indo Europeans. Of course during Neolithic the genetic make up will be sligthly different but not that they will be more Assyrian like. Either more H&G like (from Iranian plateau and North Caucasus) or EEF like.

If someone think that genetics had influence on politics, give somebody a right to live somewhere or deny somebody to live somewhere I think this is wrong. Politics is about living persons. Turkey is wrong not because they came from Altai but because they don't respect basic human rights. I was very happy when I knew that Kurdish party won in Kars, Igdir and most other places of Kurdistan . And You know that I am fan of Independent Kurdistan. But this is off-top here and it should be continued elsewhere.

Right, claiming land based on history will not bring us much. We Kurds have lost since the Iron Age territories in North Iran to Azeris, and Persian speakers and Central/East Anatolia to Turks.

I just fel this might be a political statement because I am used to that some Armenians and especially more Assyrian (Ironically) members were discrediting us in an insulting way our existence rights in the region, based on genetics as if they actually knew how the region genetically was and if they were 100% natives. They didn't even use historic common sense knowing perfectly that their ancestors arrived from the Levant after the first Iranic speakers were already attested. They thought them beeing genetically closer to Armenians would mean they have more claim on Iraqi Kurdish territory, though historically the region was first populated by Caucasic/Iranic tribes.

If you were ariund for long and saw how some of these Assyrian members acted on the net and some still do you would understand why I react so sensitive on "historic claims".
Well good old karma caught them really bad that I haven't heard yet any word from the Baghdadi Assyrian Elias Alucard who was the leading person in those theories.

Of course not all Assyrians were that way but a good number.

I have some Armenian friends.
The day Kurdistan gets independent the border should be opened to Armenia I know for free passage I know that Armenians have also long history in regions such as Van and as us Kurds have historic legends/connections to the Ararat mountain. Kurds aand Armenians have been living side by side for very long.

 

[Greying Wanderer]

Variation makes sense. Estonia is Estonia and Germany is Germany
In Baltics Corded mixed and assimilated (under Daugava) or got assimilated (above Daugava) by local folk.

More precisely borders for assimilation can be found here
View attachment 7296

6-8 thousand years closer to the LGM the boreal forest line may have been further south.

 

[Greying Wanderer]

The idea that the Silures were Iberians is based on one piece of speculation by Tacitus. Placing them as another dark-complexioned people, like the Berbers as you do, doesn't have any precedence as far as I know.

My opinion is that the Silures were definitely Celts. Archaeology in the area settled by the Silures points to very similar patterns to other Brythonic Celts, like the use of British-style roundhouses. Modern Southeastern Welsh are genetically about as we would expect. They may be a local maximum for dark complexion, but IMO don't share many other phenotypic traits with non-British populations. There are also no notes, in Tacitus or otherwise, of the Silures speaking an unusual language, or having unusual cultural patterns (other than being warlike).

There are pockets of ydna E in the mountainous bits of Wales which may hint at some very early southern origins (greatly diluted over time) getting pushed back into refuges.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/WalesDNA/default.aspx?section=yresults

 

[arvistro]

@Tomenable, I doubt this has to do with FU folk. At least for modern Balts.
I had difficulties to notice which green thing is Sintasta in plot, different shades of green does not mate with my eyes...
But if this is the between Hungar, Bulgar, Croat one, then main reason is WHG/EEF proportion. Finno-Ugric seems to push down, rather than right.

Although Russians seem to be located between Finns and Mordvins in this plot. So, you are right there on East Slavs. Interesting.
Ukrainians to my great surprise too.

 

[arvistro]

6-8 thousand years closer to the LGM the boreal forest line may have been further south.

This pic covers time period since Corded to current days, I checked specifically. 4,500-5,000 years ago it became like this with some insig fluctuations.
6-8 maybe, did not check any further then.

 

[Angela]

this review was before the Allentoft paper ?

Allentoft paper redates many events to a few centuries later
they also claim contacts between Cucuteni and Maikop before Yamna

I'm curious about next year review

Me too. These genetics results are going to cause a re-evaluation all across the board, I think.

 

[Greying Wanderer]

This pic covers time period since Corded to current days, I checked specifically. 4,500-5,000 years ago it became like this with some insig fluctuations.
6-8 maybe, did not check any further then.

Fair enough. It seems logical to me the conifer line would have gradually retreated north as the world warned up after the LGM.

(edit: but i don't know for sure.)

 

[Greying Wanderer]

My friend how many times have I actually explained this here and on Eurogenes? Atlantic_Med is an EEF type ancestry. It lacked in Yamna people. So how could they brought it for that matter?

All modern people of the region have less of the Atlantic_Med than ancient, it rather seems the Indo European expansion has deluded the Atlantic_Med ancestry.





Language spoken by modern North Caucasians


You said it yourself. founder effect. That a bottleneck effect happened in North Caucasus is almost so known and accepted by scientist as the earth being round. Read some papers on North Caucasian yDNA. All the J1 and J2 lineages do not only look bottlenecked. They are all from the same subclades.


Whoms mtDNA is full of Steppe women? And again not they can't be "shifted to Europe" because of Steppe ancestry because what shifts them towards Europe is EEF/Atlantic Med. Yamna amost lacked Atlantic_Med and Caucasus ancestry.

"Atlantic_Med is an EEF type ancestry. It lacked in Yamna people. So how could they brought it for that matter?"

If Atlantic_Med is more Bell Beaker than EEF i.e. a mix of EEF and some steppe copper workers and if the proto-Armenians also got an influx from a related group of steppe copper workers might the software pick "Atlantic_Med" as the closest match?

Also there seems to be an argument over whether the bulk of the gene flow was north to south or south to north. It's possible that it was both i.e. a minority influx of miners from north to south could even be the catalyst for a south to north expansion by making the region richer and more densely populated.

 

[arvistro]

Fair enough. It seems logical to me the conifer line would have gradually retreated north as the world warned up after the LGM.

(edit: but i don't know for sure.)

http://www.esd.ornl.gov/projects/qen/NEW_MAPS/europe0.gif

In general I recommend the article:
http://www.esd.ornl.gov/projects/qen/nercEUROPE.html
It helps to add another dimension also to population and culture movements.

 

[Tomenable]

I had difficulties to notice which green thing is Sintasta in plot, different shades of green does not mate with my eyes...

Sintashta is the one above, Andronovo the one below.

Andronovo is not really similar to any of modern populations included in the comparison.

But Sintashta is similar to modern West Slavic populations.

Ukrainians to my great surprise too.

If their sample was from Eastern Ukraine then there could be many people with Russian ancestors.

 

[LeBrok]

Allentoft claimed that only one part of Corded Ware was involved in creating Sintashta.

Corded Ware extended from Central Europe to western regions of European Russia.

So probably that was just one part of Corded Ware, in which Z93 subclade spread.

BTW - there was no replacement because modern Slavs still plot genetically near ancient Sintashta. Check Supplementary Figure 2 on page 33: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v522/n7555/extref/nature14507-s1.pdf

Which means that Balto-Slavs share common ancestors with Indo-Iranians. So rather than some "replacement" it was simply by chance that Z93 migrated east, while Z283 was more western.

They were very young and not very spread throughout whole Western Yamna population. Each could exist in one tribe or family out of many. It just happened that they became very successful and spread out after the split happened. There is also a chance that they came to existence short after the split. Dating of their ages is just about the time of Yamna.

 

[bicicleur 2]

Allentoft claimed that only one part of Corded Ware was involved in creating Sintashta.

Corded Ware extended from Central Europe to western regions of European Russia.

So probably that was just one part of Corded Ware, in which Z93 subclade spread.

BTW - there was no replacement because modern Slavs still plot genetically near ancient Sintashta. Check Supplementary Figure 2 on page 33: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v522/n7555/extref/nature14507-s1.pdf

Which means that Balto-Slavs share common ancestors with Indo-Iranians. So rather than some "replacement" it was simply by chance that Z93 migrated east, while Z283 was more western.

Despite different subclades of R1a, both Corded Ware groups were genetically similar.

Even today West Slavs and some of South Slavs are close to ancient Sintashta (link above).

Modern East Slavs and Balts plot farther away than other Slavs possibly due to mixing with Ugro-Finns.

Ugro-Finns (red color in the map below) inhabited much more land in the 800s than today. As you can see nearly all of European Russia was mostly or partially Ugro-Finnic at that time:

http://s17.postimg.org/mcrd7o52n/900.jpg

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v522/n7555/extref/nature14507-s1.pdf

Page 33

Supplementary Figure 2. Example of principal component analysis of individualssubsampled to 10,000 SNPs. Arrows indicate the shift in position for each ancient individualcompared to the full dataset.

Can anybody explain please?
Are there 2 positions? 1 compared to partial dataset and 1 compared to full dataset?
Is partial dataset without modern populations then?

 

[holderlin]

I am just having a thought now. If Lith/Lat have 0 farmer ancestry whatsoever, should I call my grandpa and tell him to quit what he is doing, since he is genetically incapable?

Ha, Seriously. The Lazaridis model has warped my already warped mind. I'm starting to blame certain flaws on either my farmer or HG ancestry, and I'm very HG-centric about it, which is probably a flaw from my farmer genes. Go figure.

Anything irrationally obsessive or what I judge to be cowardly, I blame my farmer genes. Anything alpha, stoic, or in any way attributed to Conan of Cimmeria I credit my EHG component. And anything super human I'm inclined to credit ANE, just because of it still being shrouded in mystery.

 

[Angela]

Ha, Seriously. The Lazaridis model has warped my already warped mind. I'm starting to blame certain flaws on either my farmer or HG ancestry, and I'm very HG-centric about it, which is probably a flaw from my farmer genes. Go figure.

Anything irrationally obsessive or what I judge to be cowardly, I blame my farmer genes. Anything alpha, stoic, or in any way attributed to Conan of Cimmeria I credit my EHG component. And anything super human I'm inclined to credit ANE, just because of it still being shrouded in mystery.

Are you capable of posting something that is not insulting or offensive to either an individual or a group?

Is this behavior typical of members of the Reptoid ethnic group to which you say you belong?

I would suggest that you consider posting intellectual content that advances our discussions. There are consequences for your preferred method of communicating.

 

[arvistro]

Sintashta is the one above, Andronovo the one below.

Andronovo is not really similar to any of modern populations included in the comparison.

But Sintashta is similar to modern West Slavic populations.

Since when are Bulgars and Hungars modern West Slavic populations? I believe Poles would be a bit farther away, between Cze and Belarus samples.

 

[Tomenable]

Modern Bulgarians and Hungarians are mostly - or largely - of Slavic ancestry.

This study does not compare Proto-Bulgars and Magyars, but modern populations.

I believe Poles would be a bit farther away, between Cze and Belarus samples.

Depends which Poles probably. According to K. Rebala before WW2 there were regional genetic differences between various Polish groups, but later they got mixed due to large population movements.

Yet you can still pick up a sample of Poles with ancestors only from a given region, and check.

Poles from Belarus are surely closer to Belarusians than for example Poles from Cracow, etc.

 

[Arame]

Alan
Just a clarification. When I say no R1b, I mean only the Z2103 subclade.
Of course upstream clades like M269, V88, P25 and even L23 will be present in our region from long time ago.

 

[arvistro]

Modern Bulgarians and Hungarians are mostly - or largely - of Slavic ancestry.

This study does not compare Proto-Bulgars and Magyars, but modern populations.



Depends which Poles probably. According to K. Rebala before WW2 there were regional genetic differences between various Polish groups, but later they got mixed due to large population movements.

Yet you can still pick up a sample of Poles with ancestors only from a given region, and check.

Poles from Belarus are surely closer to Belarusians than for example Poles from Cracow, etc.

I understand but point is it is not West Slavs but rather Bulgarians and Hungarians. Which is South Slavic not West Slavic. Croats are also closer than Czechs. Apparently they had relatively more EEF than modern West Slavs.

 

[Tomenable]

From Anthrogenica:

Rise509 (Afanasievo) is practically identical to Yamnaya!

Here is various samples with 3 main components: WHG, European Neolithic and Yamnaya, established with harappa admixture:

Corded Ware:

I0103 (Germany) - 68,75% Yamnaya / 20,0% WHG / 11,25% Neolithic
RISE94 (Sweden) - 46,25% Yamnaya / 32,5% WHG / 21,25% Neolithic
RISE00 (Estonia) - 35,0% Yamnaya / 47,5% WHG / 17,5% Neolithic

Sintashta:

RISE386 - 52,5% Yamnaya / 32,5% WHG / 15,0% Neolithic
RISE392 - 40,0% Yamnaya / 45,0% WHG / 15,0% Neolithic

Afanasievo:

RISE509 - 92,5% Yamnaya / 7,5% WHG / 0,0% Neolithic

Andronovo:

RISE509 - 73,9% Yamnaya / 0,0% WHG / 15,7% Neolithic / 10,4% South Indian
RISE509 - 61,6% Yamnaya / 17,0% WHG / 6,4% Neolithic / 15,0% Siberian

What is the source for these Yamnaya scores? It's rather strange how Andronovo score higher Yamnaya than Sintashta do when Andronovo branched off from Sintashta. Perhaps Andronovo mixed with descendants of Afansievo as they went east, increasing their Yamnaya scores and their South-Central Asian affinities.

Even a 50:50 mix of Sintashta and Afasievo would leave a WHG component of 20-25%. But it is at 0 and 17 in Andronovo.

Following the nulls the two Andronovans look very different. The one with 0 WHG overlap also has a 10.4% South Indian overlap.