bicicleur 2
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From the paper
do they have some proof to back that up?
there was a large populated steppe area in between Cucuteni and Maykop
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From the paper
As far as I have understand, they say a Maikop population was living on the Steppes, those domesticated Horses, invented the wheel, had Kurgan burials etc. and than Cucuteni/Tripojie culture had a "population explosion" and started to migraate to the Steppes mixing and adopting into the local Maikop groups. Going by that
It seems they have this theories.
1. PIE descend from Maikop culture.
2. PIE descend from the invading CT culture
3. PIE is a hybrid of the Maikop and Neolithic CT culture.
Not as far as Altais. And stiill no sign of J2 during Neolithic. All J appear in connection with Bronze to Iron Age (Indo European) expansion,
By the way Iron Age Russian in this case is actually Siberia. The two samples are from just North of Kazakhstan and the Altais. basically the territory known to us as early Scythia.
Oh, and why did they pick Remedello for the first appearance of the Indo-Europeans in Italy? Ever since it turned out that Oetzi, who was from a related culture, was G2a, it seemed pretty clear, I thought, that Remedello wouldn't be it. The only reason it used to be mentioned as such, I think, is because there was an attempt to link all metallurgy with the Indo-Europeans. Well, maybe they didn't have samples from a later period. Maybe it will turn out that the older scholars were right, and the Italic languages came to Italy from the Balkans, and via the Adriatic.
All I've had time to do is read the text in the Supplementary Info and look at a few of the admixture chars and the yDna, so maybe that's why I'm confused, but
It doesn't seem to hang together, but maybe it's because I just skimmed it. When I get up tomorrow, all our European members will have figured it all out, yes?
Does anyone know the Y-DNA haplogroups of the following males from this study:
RISE598, Turlojiske (Lithuania), LBA
RISE1, Oblaczkowo (Poland), Corded Ware
RISE139, Chociwel (Poland), Corded Ware
RISE431, Leki Male (Poland), CW / proto-Unetice
RISE596, Velika Gruda (Montenegro), LBA
RISE145, Polwica (Poland), Unetice
RISE150, Przeclawice (Poland), Unetice
As well as of new German CW and BA samples and Czech samples of all cultures?
No results given for Unetice.
Prof. Janusz Piontek made a demographical simulation, taking into account the level of immigration and assimilation. Thereafter he researched osteological material - examining ancient bones. On this basis he estimated what was the dynamics of demographic developments during the period of Roman influences, and during the early Middle Ages. He compared data concerning Wielbark and Przeworsk cultures and that concerning the early Middle Ages. The results of his research were in disagreement with the popular theory of total depopulation and then re-population (...) Piontek's results are consistent with results of research by dr Robert Dąbrowski, who collected rich craniological material from the period of Roman influences and from the early Middle Ages. He used the method of craniological distances of Mahalanobis, as a method taking into account individual skulls (...) It turned out, that skulls of people representing Wielbark, Przeworsk and Chernyakhov cultures were very similar to early Medieval skulls of Slavic populations. (...) According to prof. Piontek and his team, the theory according to which there took place a morphological discontinuity within populations living in what is now Poland in times between the period of Roman influence and the early Middle Ages, is impossible to sustain. Similarities were extraordinarily high.
- We anthropologists do not claim, that we are explaining political, historical, and ethnic-cultural transformations. - said prof. Piontek - We only indicate, that the popular allochthonistic hypothesis, which assumes a total depopulation of the Oder and Vistula basins and then a renewed colonization of those areas by a distinct immigrant population, is not correct.
Because some of Polish anthropologists and even archaeologists question the possibility of researching genetic similarities between human populations based on craniological and odontological features (comparing skulls, bones and teeth), prof. Piontek presented examples from recent global literature which debunk their assertions. He cited several specific examples from literature on the subject, concerning analyses of ethnogenesis based on nonmetrical features - performed by scientists from Japan. Also commonly accepted are studies on teeth, in order to prove or disprove morphological continuity of population in time - for example research by prof. Joel irish concerning the continuity/discontinuity of settlement in Egypt. Piontek proved that standards he used in his studies on ethnogenesis of Slavs are in agreement with standards accepted today in the scientific world. (...)
- Lack of intergroup differences between populations from times of Roman influences and later West Slavic populations, in terms of craniological and odontological features, testifies to the similar genetic structure of both populations - prof. Piontek finished his lecture.
Another quote that I met on one of many forums that I enjoyed (originally from Anthony?), was that IE expansion seems to be rather peaceful and gradual and not Hunn like horde. This fits to what and how I see developments in Baltic.
where did you find the Remedello autosomals ? the Sardinian variety would be I2a1a-M26, the Yamnaya I2a1b-L621 Remedello is suposed to be IE (steppe origin) because of its burial customs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remedello_culture
The mysterious "teal" component is present almost in all BA cultures. Sintashta and Afanasievo also.
So who are this "teal" people?
All in all - a striking continuity between Bronze Age Poland and modern Poland. R1a, R1a, R1a everywhere... But we need samples from the Iron Age to see if Germanic tribes invaded and expelled Bronze Age Poles, or never visited that area.
Another possibility is that Bronze Age "Poles" were first Germanized (in the Iron Age), and later Slavicized (in the Dark Ages).
And there was R1a continuity all the time, language changed, but actual migrations of people were not massive.
Anyway - it doesn't look like East Germanic tribes were R1a and later emigrated with that R1a, because there is almost no R1a in North Africa, Iberia, Italy, France, etc. - places to which East Germanic tribes allegedly came from Poland.
So either R1a people were expelled from Poland in the Iron Age, and later returned in the Dark Ages - or there was never actually a massive East Germanic immigration and later emigration from Poland to the Roman Empire.
==========================
This genetic continuity since the Bronze Age, and throughout the Iron Age, until the Middle Ages and modern times (West Slavic populations) is what prof. Janusz Piontek and prof. Hanna Koćka-Krenz of Poznan University have been claiming for years (based on anthropological analysis of skulls, bones and teeth, because DNA was unavailable back then):
Translated from: http://archeowiesci.pl/2008/11/12/od-kiedy-slowianie-zyja-nad-wisla-i-odra/
The only partial interruptions of genetic and population continuity between the Oder and the Vistula since the Bronze Age until now was first the German "Drang nach Osten" expansion since the Middle Ages onwards, and later the expulsion of German, as well as culturally Germanized (descended from Medieval West Slavs) population after WW2.
And of course we still don't have any Y-DNA samples from the Iron Age - only mtDNA (link below):
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0110839
But skull shapes of the Iron Age population were strikingly similar to skull shapes of the later West Slavs.
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