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Thread: Mezolithic-Neolithic vs. Chalcolithic-Early Iron Age Y-DNA landscape of Europe

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    Mezolithic-Neolithic vs. Chalcolithic-Early Iron Age Y-DNA landscape of Europe

    I have recently made two maps of ancient Y-DNA from Europe.

    First represents the Mesolithic-Neolithic period in Europe, 2nd represents the Chalcolithic-Early Iron Age period in Central Europe only.

    1. The distribution of Y-DNA haplogroups in Europe in period ca. 6000 BC - ca. 3000 BC, with a few exceptions after 3000 BC:


    The exceptions (after 3000 BC) include e.g. two samples from Poland - they are dated at approximately 2800 BC and belong to Corded Ware culture, but I decided to include them because probably they represent assimilated Neolithic population in that new Corded culture.

    Also in Russia near the border with Belarus (in Smolensk oblast and Pskov oblast) only one sample of R1a is dated at 4000 BC, while the other 3 samples (two R1a and one N1c) are dated at 2500 BC - these 3 belong to "Zhizhitskaya culture" (I have no idea what it was).

    Each circle in the map represents one sample, but note that locations are not accurate (for example most of G2 samples from southern France are from just one cemetery - they were found in the Treilles cave in Saint-Jean-et-Saint-Paul commune of Aveyron department):

    I1 oraz I = I1 and I (one of these 2 samples is I1 from Hungary dated at ca. 7500 years ago, the other one is only given as I):



    =================================

    Second map:

    2. Y-DNA hg-s in Central Europe in period ca. 2800 BC - ca. 700 BC (11 out of 12 samples of I2a are from one cemetery - a cave near Dorste):

    Legend (in English):

    KCS = Corded Ware cultural horizon
    KPP = Urnfield cultural horizon
    BB = Bell Beaker cultural horizon
    KŁ = Lusatian culture
    KH = Hallstatt culture
    KU = Unetice culture
    Kyjatice culture
    Mezocsat culture

    I2 klad niepodany = I2 subclade not given (these are Unetice culture samples from Eulau)
    J albo I = J or I (one of two CWC samples from Jagodno from ca. 2800 BC)

    Such text = places of burials

    In this map I included also the same two samples from Poland (dated at ca. 2800 BC) as in the first map:



    The map shows burials from period ca. 2800 BC (Jagodno) to ca. 700 BC (Mitterkirchen).

    ==========================
    ==========================

    What can be seen is a strong correlation between Bell Beakers (BB) and R1b, as well as between Corded Wares (KCS) and R1a.

    By contrast Urnfield cultures are mixed, with R1a in the east and R1b in the west.

    Bell Beaker cultures are thought to have originated in Iberia - so I wonder what is the source of R1b in those cultures:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture#Origins

    There have been numerous proposals by archaeologists as to the origins of the Bell Beaker culture, and debates continued on for decades. Several regions of origin have been postulated, notably the Iberian peninsula, the Netherlands and Central Europe.
    Because we have Neolithic R1b from Els Trocs cave in northern Spain, but we also have R1b from Samara Oblast in Russia.

    Could it be that eastern R1b first made its way to Iberia, and then expanded from Iberia with Bell Beakers ???

    Or perhaps those cultures originated in the Netherlands or in Central Europe, and not in Iberia ???

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Assimilated neolithic population in the new corded ware? That G could be part of the corded ware culture.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    Assimilated neolithic population in the new corded ware? That G could be part of the corded ware culture.
    Sure, that's how they got the farming genes from. From G and E folks.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Sure, that's how they got the farming genes from. From G and E folks.
    But he should have made the cutoff at 4500BC like what Haak and others state - A replacement of peoples at 4500BC in central Europe.
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    But he should have made the cutoff at 4500BC like what Haak and others state - A replacement of peoples at 4500BC in central Europe.
    It was partial replacement, and it replaced people with 80% of EEF with people with 40%. The EEF which came originally from G and E guys.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    It was partial replacement, and it replaced people with 80% of EEF with people with 40%. The EEF which came originally from G and E guys.
    Which E marker in central europe/ Germany, all I see is G2a, T1a, F and I markers before 4500BC

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    It was partial replacement, and it replaced people with 80% of EEF with people with 40%. The EEF which came originally from G and E guys.
    And this is based on what? The opinion of one man?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Which E marker in central europe/ Germany, all I see is G2a, T1a, F and I markers before 4500BC
    Yes this gets annoying, wherever there is some G, there has to be E too, even though there is not.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    The EEF would also have come from the I1 and I2 men, and let's not forget the autosomal input of the women. You can see the autosomal composition of the Central European I2 men in the Gamba et al paper:

    This is the PCA from Gamba et al. Both the KO1 hunter gatherer and the NE7 Neolithic farmer are yDna I2 bearing men. Those y bearing men went from plotting north of Ajvide to plotting with Sardinians.
    http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/14...mms6257-f2.jpg

    This is the paper:
    http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/14...comms6257.html

    Based on still small numbers of samples, we don't know if yDna "E" was only a part of the Cardial movement or whether it also formed part of cultures like LBK. At any rate, Cardial then spread from the the coasts into the interior, as this recent paper points out. Also, although the two migrating groups might have been a bit different because they might have encountered slightly different Mesolithic groups as they moved across Europe, they were enough alike that all the Neolithic farmer remains cluster very near one another.

    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0125521

    There is a discussion here:
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...na-from-France

    That may actually help explain the relatively high numbers of yDna "E" in the center of France which have long puzzled people. Of course, we don't have fine grained resolution from those old studies so it's hard to know precisely what subclades are involved.

    Fluffy: And this is based on what? The opinion of one man?
    Of course not...it's based on Lazaridis et al, and Haak et al, (Did you take a look at how many of the world's population geneticists signed on to those papers?)and Gamba et al, and other papers. No one knows precisely how much replacement took place in which precise areas, but the ancestry of the people in the Central European Middle Neolithic was predominantly from the Near East and the ancestry of the newcomers was about 40-50% similar to modern Near Eastern populations. Those are rough parameters, of course. The most isolated regions of the northeast may have had additional input from remaining hunter-gatherers , in my opinion, but time will tell. As we get more samples, and the academics come out with some new modeling, we'll perhaps get a better handle on the amount of actual replacement. (Certain areas could have depopulated, etc.)


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    Yes this gets annoying, wherever there is some G, there has to be E too, even though there is not.
    what do you mean?


    the Neolithic findings pre 4500BC ( G2, T1, F and I) are all within 10km of the Goseck circles

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goseck_circle

    and

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolith...Central_Europe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    what do you mean?


    the Neolithic findings pre 4500BC ( G2, T1, F and I) are all within 10km of the Goseck circles

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goseck_circle

    and

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolith...Central_Europe
    I was just saying people tend to put E and G together for some reason. I don't even think E is Neolithic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    I have recently made two maps of ancient Y-DNA from Europe.

    First represents the Mesolithic-Neolithic period in Europe, 2nd represents the Chalcolithic-Early Iron Age period in Central Europe only.

    1. The distribution of Y-DNA haplogroups in Europe in period ca. 6000 BC - ca. 3000 BC, with a few exceptions after 3000 BC:


    The exceptions (after 3000 BC) include e.g. two samples from Poland - they are dated at approximately 2800 BC and belong to Corded Ware culture, but I decided to include them because probably they represent assimilated Neolithic population in that new Corded culture.

    Also in Russia near the border with Belarus (in Smolensk oblast and Pskov oblast) only one sample of R1a is dated at 4000 BC, while the other 3 samples (two R1a and one N1c) are dated at 2500 BC - these 3 belong to "Zhizhitskaya culture" (I have no idea what it was).

    Each circle in the map represents one sample, but note that locations are not accurate (for example most of G2 samples from southern France are from just one cemetery - they were found in the Treilles cave in Saint-Jean-et-Saint-Paul commune of Aveyron department):

    I1 oraz I = I1 and I (one of these 2 samples is I1 from Hungary dated at ca. 7500 years ago, the other one is only given as I):



    =================================

    Second map:

    2. Y-DNA hg-s in Central Europe in period ca. 2800 BC - ca. 700 BC (11 out of 12 samples of I2a are from one cemetery - a cave near Dorste):

    Legend (in English):

    KCS = Corded Ware cultural horizon
    KPP = Urnfield cultural horizon
    BB = Bell Beaker cultural horizon
    KŁ = Lusatian culture
    KH = Hallstatt culture
    KU = Unetice culture
    Kyjatice culture
    Mezocsat culture

    I2 klad niepodany = I2 subclade not given (these are Unetice culture samples from Eulau)
    J albo I = J or I (one of two CWC samples from Jagodno from ca. 2800 BC)

    Such text = places of burials

    In this map I included also the same two samples from Poland (dated at ca. 2800 BC) as in the first map:



    The map shows burials from period ca. 2800 BC (Jagodno) to ca. 700 BC (Mitterkirchen).

    ==========================
    ==========================

    What can be seen is a strong correlation between Bell Beakers (BB) and R1b, as well as between Corded Wares (KCS) and R1a.

    By contrast Urnfield cultures are mixed, with R1a in the east and R1b in the west.

    Bell Beaker cultures are thought to have originated in Iberia - so I wonder what is the source of R1b in those cultures:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture#Origins



    Because we have Neolithic R1b from Els Trocs cave in northern Spain, but we also have R1b from Samara Oblast in Russia.

    Could it be that eastern R1b first made its way to Iberia, and then expanded from Iberia with Bell Beakers ???

    Or perhaps those cultures originated in the Netherlands or in Central Europe, and not in Iberia ???
    Cool maps dude, thanks. However I have problem with discerning colours again. Is it too much to ask you to use more contrasting colours please? Also can you implement same hg colours in every map?
    I'm used to Maciamo's colour scheme. Perhaps we can use some standardization in this field? Just suggestions.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    I was just saying people tend to put E and G together for some reason. I don't even think E is Neolithic.
    So, the dating and analysis of the yDna of that Neolithic sample from Spain was done incorrectly?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    I was just saying people tend to put E and G together for some reason. I don't even think E is Neolithic.
    The Neolithic i/ˌnɵˈlɪθɪk/[1] Era, or Period, from νέος (néos, "new") and λίθος (líthos, "stone"), or New Stone Age, was a period in the development of humantechnology, beginning about 10,200 BC, according to the ASPRO chronology, in some parts of the Middle East, and later in other parts of the world[2] and ending between 4,500 and 2,000 BC.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic


    which time period would the 7000 E-V13 year old skeleton found in North Spain fall?


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic_Europe



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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    So, the dating and analysis of the yDna of that Neolithic sample from Spain was done incorrectly?
    you beat me to it :)

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    you beat me to it :)
    Yes, but yours is the irrefutable and complete answer.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    It is possible that E hitchhiked a ride with culture of G farmers same as hunter-gatherer hg I did, since early Neolithic. I'm still thinking that different haplogroups spread by means of material advances. G with farming, E with pottery, J or T with copper or maritime trade. F and C could have been in minority of European HGs, or it was also as minority clades of Near Eastern farmers.
    I can't wait for Near East ancient samples, Natufians and the rest of fertile Crescent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    The Neolithic i/ˌnɵˈlɪθɪk/[1] Era, or Period, from νέος (néos, "new") and λίθος (líthos, "stone"), or New Stone Age, was a period in the development of humantechnology, beginning about 10,200 BC, according to the ASPRO chronology, in some parts of the Middle East, and later in other parts of the world[2] and ending between 4,500 and 2,000 BC.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic


    which time period would the 7000 E-V13 year old skeleton found in North Spain fall?


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic_Europe


    Most likely he was a wanderer from North Africa.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    Most likely he was a wanderer from North Africa.
    There is culture and then there is geography. Neolithic is a culture, not a continent. The sample was "E", in a Neolithic community, in Spain in 7000 BCE. End of story.

    I think it came east with Cardial, but even if it didn't it doesn't change the fact that it was in Europe 7,000 BC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    Most likely he was a wanderer from North Africa.
    Its good to get informed about the subject....this might help you ;)

    Interesting results from the lineage analysis can be summarized as follows: (i) R-L23*, the eastern branch of haplogroup R-M269, is present in Eastern Bulgaria since the post glacial period; (ii) haplogroup E-V13, which probably originated in Western Asia, has a Mesolithic age in Bulgaria from where it expanded after the spread of farming marked by haplogroup G-P15, J-M410 representatives; (iii) haplogroup J-M241 probably reflects the Neolithic westward expansion of farmers from the earliest sites along the Black Sea.

    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0056779

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    Its good to get informed about the subject....this might help you ;)

    Interestingresults from the lineage analysis can be summarized as follows: (i) R-L23*, the eastern branch of haplogroup R-M269, is present in Eastern Bulgaria since the post glacial period; (ii) haplogroup E-V13, which probably originated in Western Asia, has a Mesolithic age in Bulgaria from where it expanded after the spread of farming marked by haplogroup G-P15, J-M410 representatives; (iii) haplogroup J-M241 probably reflects the Neolithic westward expansion of farmers from the earliest sites along the Black Sea.

    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0056779
    Thanks Maleth for this information. I appreciate it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Which E marker in central europe/ Germany, all I see is G2a, T1a, F and I markers before 4500BC
    If there were two strands of neolithic farmer: an E strand out of the Levant that mostly spread along the maritime route and a G strand from further east which mostly spread via the Danube route, then you might expect the G and E to be merged in the south but as you go further north the E to drop away leaving mostly or only G.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greying Wanderer View Post
    If there were two strands of neolithic farmer: an E strand out of the Levant that mostly spread along the maritime route and a G strand from further east which mostly spread via the Danube route, then you might expect the G and E to be merged in the south but as you go further north the E to drop away leaving mostly or only G.
    there are some like yourself that make sense and others are in fantasy lands

    The Neolithic farmers in germany via the haak paper, which are G2, T1, F and I markers are noted as north-anatolia or blacksea anatolians and later called Pontic Anatolians.

    The E is a northafrica/levant marker to migrate into Europe

    The J are the confusing ones................IMO , J1 was with E marker and J2 originated in G2 caucasus/zargos lands and came into Europe slightly later than the G2 Neolithics in Europe

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    Most likely he was a wanderer from North Africa.
    I think E-V13 has very more chances to be born in Europe than in North-Africa, even if his ancestors came almost surely from North East Africa. In the today hotspot big region for Y-E-V13, the most variance for Y-E1b (but almost all of them V13) are on the coasts of Dalmatia = maritime Croatia, even if the frequence hotspots are in Kosovo, Greece, Albania, and a bit less dense, in Macedonia, Serbia, Serbians of Bosnia, Bulgaria and East Romania.
    I thought some times ago Y-E-V13 had made its road along with Y-G2a during the Neolithic advance. Now I'm less sure concerning dates. Maybe its change of gravity center in Balkans is linked to Chalcolithic/Bronze Ages under a Y-J2 launching. Its destiny could have been there linked to the Y-J2 (+ some local Y-I2a1b and some Y-G2a) expansion in the frame of later Cucuteni-Tripolye expansion until Southern Belarus. evidently the later steppic I-Ean and Slavic developments have erased this (supposed by myself) first colonization in Northern lands!
    hypothesis upon the today data I have. So, don't disagree totally with you. Y-E1b-V13 could have had a complicated story.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I think E-V13 has very more chances to be born in Europe than in North-Africa, even if his ancestors came almost surely from North East Africa. In the today hotspot big region for Y-E-V13, the most variance for Y-E1b (but almost all of them V13) are on the coasts of Dalmatia = maritime Croatia, even if the frequence hotspots are in Kosovo, Greece, Albania, and a bit less dense, in Macedonia, Serbia, Serbians of Bosnia, Bulgaria and East Romania.
    I thought some times ago Y-E-V13 had made its road along with Y-G2a during the Neolithic advance. Now I'm less sure concerning dates. Maybe its change of gravity center in Balkans is linked to Chalcolithic/Bronze Ages under a Y-J2 launching. Its destiny could have been there linked to the Y-J2 (+ some local Y-I2a1b and some Y-G2a) expansion in the frame of later Cucuteni-Tripolye expansion until Southern Belarus. evidently the later steppic I-Ean and Slavic developments have erased this (supposed by myself) first colonization in Northern lands!
    hypothesis upon the today data I have. So, don't disagree totally with you. Y-E1b-V13 could have had a complicated story.
    I agree, and this is how I see it in detail.

    All modern Y haplogourps since Neolithic had spread around only as farmers and herders. There were no pure hunter gatherers that could spread so successfully since Neolithic, especially into farmers territory. First they needed to meet farmers, mix with them, acquire their successful farmer genes or transfer their Y chromosome, and only then could explode as successful Y haplogroup. Even IE herders (R1) needed to acquire farmer (Armenian like) genes to build up numbers and then expend/conquer.

    Let's say that Natufians/fertile crescent first farmers were G2a folks. This means that only G2a carrying farmers were expanding first all over Near East and South Europe. When they were expending they met and assimilated Y haplogroups of local hunter gatherers. Only after this assimilation and giving local Y hg set of farmer genes and culture, these new Y hg could also expend by over-breeding and farther expansion in HGs territory.

    This means that we should find G2a mostly, sometimes only, in very Early Neolithic sites, before others were assimilated and turned into farmers. They were like Borg from Star Trek, lol. Resistance was futile.

    I'm sure there had to be more haplogroups than G2a in Fertile Crescent. Perhaps G2a expended initially so fast that didn't have time to interact much with H-Gs, and carrying them into Europe? However, from recent research we learned that Y haplogroups really compete with each other (on genetic) level and every couple of thousand of years old haplogroups go extinct and new explode, even if genetic base (autosomal) stays fairly unchanged. On average we still carry about 50% of first farmers genetic material, however their Y chromosome G2a is almost extinct these days. It is counter intuitive, and makes disyphering haplogroups of original populations rather difficult.

    Maybe G2a was rather "weak" comparable to other Y hgs? Maybe it made men too peaceful, or a sexual, or something else? Whenever it met other haplogroups it was losing the battle. It had met I2, R1b or J2 and after couple of thousand of years populations turned into almost exclusively I2, R1b or J2.
    Isn't Hungarian Neolithic telling us this story? Instead of finding mostly G2a among farmers we find I2, F and C, the local hunter gatherer haplogroups among farmers. However atosomally they were still 90% ENF.

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