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Thread: Genetics confirm migration of White Croats to Croatia

  1. #26
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    Exactly what I'm saying. White Croatia is a region of Carpates.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22
    The Sorbs also showed evidence of subtle levels of genetic isolation in comparison with samples from non-isolated European populations

    Lusatian Sorbs are because of Germanic tribes that surrounded them
    ^ We are talking about modern times, when "tribes" have no longer existed.

    During the Middle Ages, Sorbs were of course surrounded by other Slavic tribes from all sides.

    Sorbs have become an isolated Slavic-speaking enclave surrounded by German-speaking populations from all sides only relatively recently - in the late 18th or in the 19th century. Until approximately the 18th century Sorbs weren't an enclave surrounded from all side by Germans, but were connected by a strip of Slavic-speaking countryside with Polish-speaking mainland (the transitional group between Sorbian-speakers and Polish-speakers were so called "Oder-Wenden", who spoke transitional Polish-Sorbian dialects - while to the east of Oder-Wenden there lived Polacy Lubuscy, as this map (LINK) shows. So in 1700 you could still ride all the way from Cottbus, via Zielona Gora and Poznan, to Moscow, without even leaving Slavic-speaking territories - below such a map:

    (Serbowie Łużyccy = Lusatian Sorbs; Polacy Lubuscy = Poles of Lubusz Land)

    blue = German-speaking areas / white and pink = Slavic-speaking areas



    So until the late 1700s or even the 1800s there was no any linguistic barrier preventing Sorbs from mixing with their eastern neighbours, as they also spoke Slavic back then. Even later Sorbs mixed with Polish immigrants coming to their land.

    There was a fairly recent Polish immigration to Sorbian territory. For example according to the German census of year 1900, monolingual Polish-speakers (without including Polish-German or Polish-Sorbian bilinguals) were 5,5% of population of Kreis Kalau in Provinz Brandenburg, in Sorbian lands. Monolingual Poles were 4,334 out of 78,804 inhabitants of that county.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    Lusatian Sorbs have main R1a type M458, Serbs have R1a Z280
    This is not true, Sorbs have both types.

    Ca. 37% of Lusatian Sorbs have M458, and ca. 28% of Lusatian Sorbs have Z280.

    In total around 65% of Sorbs have R1a.

    Serbs also have both these subclades - ca. 10% have Z280 and ca. 4% have M458.

    In total around 15% of Serbs have R1a.

    Of course you can find also different percenages depending on study and samples.

    For example Bosnian Serbs have different frequencies than Serbs from Serbia.

    Does it mean that Bosnian Serbs are not descended from Serbs from Serbia?

    It is simply the case, that when just part of a tribe migrates, they are usually not perfectly representative of the total population. It will always be a lottery. For example there could be 100 Proto-Serbs, 50 with R1a and 50 with I2a. Of them, 50 migrated to Germany and 50 to the Balkans, but among those who migrated to Germany there could be 35 with R1a and 15 with I2a, while in the other group there could be 35 with I2a and 15 with R1a. For example. After migrating, various lineages could procreate at different rates (i.e. John with R1a could have 10 sons and 2 daughters, Jacob with I2a could have 1 son and 7 daughters - for example), leading to changes in frequencies. They also mixed with different groups of locals in both places - Serbs in the Balkans mixed with local Non-Serbs.

    I inserted "John" and "Jacob" as examples (I know these aren't Slavic names).

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    https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...sea/about/news
    SNP S17250 divide I-L621 L147.2 (CTS5966) Dinarics subclade

    In 2014 results of BigY Survey Program give us a new portion of knowledge about a big and not structured up till now part of Slavic languages people I-L621 L147.2 CTS5966+ which are a remains of Venedi Peoples from Roman Empire period (see the location of the Venedi in the upper Vistula region and south of Polesian Lowland in times of the Roman empire under Hadrian (ruled 117-138), source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Veneti (see map below)


    The current state of knowledge about the diversity within the group I-L621 L147.2 CTS5966+ is shown in ISOGG phylotree: http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpI.html
    It is divided between two or tree subclades: S17250 - majority of tested, and Y4460 possible a remnant of the Baltic Veneti, and maybe Z17855

    S17250 is divided further into at least three subclades, maybe represented 3 area of settlement/3 tribes groups:

    • Z16971 (probably White Croats descendants),
    • Y4882 (probably a Drevlyans and Dregoviches descendants),
    • A356/Z16983 (probably Moravians descendants).


    Y4460 is divided further into two subclades:


    • Z16973 with subbranch Y3118 and
    • S8201 & Y8942
      second one with a subclade:
    • Y13498

    Lack of geographical separation of Venedes caused mixed population and we are not able to predict on STR basis real SNP subclades.
    But only inside of those subclades an STR analysis is valuable. So it is strong recommendation for testing, S17250 at first.



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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by DejaVu
    In 2014 results of BigY Survey Program give us a new portion of knowledge about a big and not structured up till now part of Slavic languages people I-L621 L147.2 CTS5966+ which are a remains of Venedi Peoples from Roman Empire period (see the location of the Venedi in the upper Vistula region and south of Polesian Lowland in times of the Roman empire under Hadrian (ruled 117-138), sourcehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Veneti (see map below)
    It is total speculation, since we do not have any ancient DNA samples from the upper Vistula region from period 117 - 138 AD. So we have no idea, what DNA did those people (or any other people from this region) have during the 2nd century AD.

    So far - when it comes to area of Poland - we have Y-DNA only from the Copper Age and Bronze Age.

    From the Iron Age and from Roman times, we have no aDNA except for some mtDNA samples.

    This might change within several years from now, when (and if) this project is completed:

    http://ncn.gov.pl/finansowanie-nauki...cz?language=en

    ^ "Dynasty & population of the Piast state in view of integrated historical, anthropological & genomic studies"

    Such a scheme explaining what is it about: http://s4.postimg.org/cnzq9ygcd/Piast_realm.png



    This is a huge project - hopefully they will finish this and publish their results before 2020...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    This is not true, Sorbs have both types.

    Ca. 37% of Lusatian Sorbs have M458, and ca. 28% of Lusatian Sorbs have Z280.

    In total around 65% of Sorbs have R1a.



    Serbs also have both these subclades - ca. 10% have Z280 and ca. 4% have M458.

    In total around 15% of Serbs have R1a.

    Of course you can find also different percenages depending on study and samples.

    For example Bosnian Serbs have different frequencies than Serbs from Serbia.

    Does it mean that Bosnian Serbs are not descended from Serbs from Serbia?

    It is simply the case, that when just part of a tribe migrates, they are usually not perfectly representative of the total population. It will always be a lottery. For example there could be 100 Proto-Serbs, 50 with R1a and 50 with I2a. Of them, 50 migrated to Germany and 50 to the Balkans, but among those who migrated to Germany there could be 35 with R1a and 15 with I2a, while in the other group there could be 35 with I2a and 15 with R1a. For example. After migrating, various lineages could procreate at different rates (i.e. John with R1a could have 10 sons and 2 daughters, Jacob with I2a could have 1 son and 7 daughters - for example), leading to changes in frequencies. They also mixed with different groups of locals in both places - Serbs in the Balkans mixed with local Non-Serbs.

    I inserted "John" and "Jacob" as examples (I know these aren't Slavic names).

    Which type M458 and Z280...?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DejaVu View Post
    https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...sea/about/news
    SNP S17250 divide I-L621 L147.2 (CTS5966) Dinarics subclade

    In 2014 results of BigY Survey Program give us a new portion of knowledge about a big and not structured up till now part of Slavic languages people I-L621 L147.2 CTS5966+ which are a remains of Venedi Peoples from Roman Empire period (see the location of the Venedi in the upper Vistula region and south of Polesian Lowland in times of the Roman empire under Hadrian (ruled 117-138), source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Veneti (see map below)


    The current state of knowledge about the diversity within the group I-L621 L147.2 CTS5966+ is shown in ISOGG phylotree: http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpI.html
    It is divided between two or tree subclades: S17250 - majority of tested, and Y4460 possible a remnant of the Baltic Veneti, and maybe Z17855

    S17250 is divided further into at least three subclades, maybe represented 3 area of settlement/3 tribes groups:

    • Z16971 (probably White Croats descendants),
    • Y4882 (probably a Drevlyans and Dregoviches descendants),
    • A356/Z16983 (probably Moravians descendants).


    Y4460 is divided further into two subclades:


    • Z16973 with subbranch Y3118 and
    • S8201 & Y8942
      second one with a subclade:
    • Y13498

    Lack of geographical separation of Venedes caused mixed population and we are not able to predict on STR basis real SNP subclades.
    But only inside of those subclades an STR analysis is valuable. So it is strong recommendation for testing, S17250 at first.


    Even though there are not so many results for the new SNPs for people from Croatia and Serbia, many of these people belong to the "Dinaric-South" group as defined by STRs and I think most of "Dinaric-South" will belong to what our project calls the I-Z16983/A356 group.


    Ancestor of haplotype I2a1b2a1a3 A356 / 16983 is mutation I-Y3548

    http://yfull.com/tree/I-Y3548/

    That White Croatian mutation is ancestor of haplotype I2a1b2a1a2 Y4882, I2a1b2a1a1 Z16971. Therefore they can not be Drevlyans, Dregoviches or Moravians...Only after breakup of White Croats...

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    Such a 2013 study on Y-DNA haplogroups of ethnic Poles from the region of Wielkopolska (Polonia Maior).

    http://www.amsik.pl/archiwum/3_2013/3_13d.pdf

    Table II. (pages 3 - 10) - 17 Y-STR haplotypes for the Greater Poland population, haplogroups and frequency.

    I compared some (until now just a few) Polish haplotypes from that study, with this database:

    http://yhrd.org/search/search

    For example Polish individual ID43 had 135 matches including 1 exact match in their database:

    "Found 1 exact match in 6,872 Haplotypes. This is approx. 1 match in 6,872 Haplotypes (95% CI: 1,234 - 271,430).
    All information provided here are based on the Minimal Haplotype database. There are 135 matches in 154,329 Haplotypes":

    http://s24.postimg.org/jsrjw4u79/ID43_matches.png









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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    hrvat

    The recent study on Slavic people shows that the differences between Serbs, Croats and Bosniacs are very small not to say non-existant. The small difference is only the slight increase of EEF when going to South and that has much to do with geography than other issues.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Arame View Post
    hrvat

    The recent study on Slavic people shows that the differences between Serbs, Croats and Bosniacs are very small not to say non-existant. The small difference is only the slight increase of EEF when going to South and that has much to do with geography than other issues.
    I has to do with local autochthonous population who lived there before Slavs came, and with whom Slavs mixed after arrival.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Arame,

    That is K6, so it is very low-resolution. Most of Europeans score k3 (dark blue) and k2 (light blue) components. But this study says many interesting things - for example it suggests that not just South Slavs but all groups of Slavs during their expansion absorbed and mixed with pre-Slavic substrates - in case of South Slavs those were previous Balkanian populations, in case of East Slavs mostly Baltic and Ugro-Finnic peoples, in case of Poles and Sorbs apparently mostly some "Swedish-like" population, while in case of Czechs and Slovaks apparently some Celtic and "German-like" populations.

    When it comes to linguistic aspects, the study also says, that:

    1) Slavic branch split from Proto-Balto-Slavic language already in the 2nd millennium BC,
    2) Slavic split into 3 groups (ancestral to West, South, East Slavic) already ca. 100 AD,
    3) Those 3 main groups started to split further into more groups in 400 AD - 700 AD,
    4) Slovenian is probably a West Slavic language, rather than a South Slavic language.

    See here: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...e.0135820.s008




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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    1) Western group (Slovenians, Croatians, Bosnians)
    2) Central group (Serbs - perhaps also Montenegrins)
    3) Eastern group (Macedonians, Bulgarians)

    Macedonians and Bulgarians share genetic similarities with Romanians and Greeks - especially Macedonian Greeks.



    If Croats have split from Slavs from Poland, shouldn't Croats speak West Slavic language?

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    LeBrok

    Yes of course the more southern they moved then more denser was the native population. Also it seems that Carpathes (Romania) served as a refugium for EEF.

    Tomenable

    It would be interesting to look at a K20 admixture run where Serbs and Bosniacs are present. But I doubt that this will change much.

    BTW David criticized the Polish sampling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arame View Post
    LeBrok

    Yes of course the more southern they moved then more denser was the native population. Also it seems that Carpathes (Romania) served as a refugium for EEF.
    The farther south you go the more EEF there is. It means the farther south the denser ethnic population of EEF was, not just Romania/Carpathes.

    BTW David criticized the Polish sampling.
    I noticed that too. The unusual spikes/differences between polish samplings. There are two explanations. Either unusual and coincidental samplings were present or polish population is not very well mixed. According to David is the former, claimed to be Estonians, but when I checked, even Estonians don't have such long yellow spikes.

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    BTW David criticized the Polish sampling.
    In next study I suggest they use Poles from Kazakhstan!: :)

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poles_in_Kazakhstan

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    BTW David criticized the Polish sampling.
    In next study I suggest they use Poles from Kazakhstan!:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poles_in_Kazakhstan

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    Made mistake had my post already.

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    Here is a admixture plot K2-K20

    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...e.0135820.s003

    and here is the PCA



    source

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    BTW on Russian forums the study was criticized for not being much informative. Not answering important questions related to the location of Proto-Balto-Slav homeland also their probable Y DNA-s.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arame View Post
    hrvat

    The recent study on Slavic people shows that the differences between Serbs, Croats and Bosniacs are very small not to say non-existant. The small difference is only the slight increase of EEF when going to South and that has much to do with geography than other issues.



    What does this have to do with Croatian ancestry and White Croats..

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    If Croats have split from Slavs from Poland, shouldn't Croats speak West Slavic language?

    Perhaps in southern Poland they spoke some archaic Croatian language but after departure of White Croats, the rest of White Croats took other types of Slavic languages..

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    Perhaps in southern Poland they spoke some archaic Croatian language but after departure of White Croats, the rest of White Croats took other types of Slavic languages..
    Is it possible that Serbs gave South Slavic language to Croats?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Is it possible that Serbs gave South Slavic language to Croats?
    Is it possible that Montenegrins and Bosnians gave Slavic language to Croats....??

    Serbs have haplotype E1b as second in population that has nothing to do with arrival of Slavs to Balkans...

    Serbs and others have taken language from Croats who throughout history became Serbs, Bosnians and Montenegrins ...It is the logic ...Bosnians have not come from White Croatia as Bosnians and brought Bosnian language when in White Croatia lived only Croats..

    It is interesting that Serbs in majority have another type R1a haplotype known as Volga Carpatian or Northern Carpathian, who probably has a source somewhere further from White Croatia...

    https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...xPadU1Rc&hl=en

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1a?iframe=ymap

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    Serbs have haplotype E1b as second in population that has nothing to do with arrival of Slavs to Balkans...
    Which should mean that they are autochthonous Balkan population? I don't think so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post

    Serbs have haplotype E1b as second in population that has nothing to do with arrival of Slavs to Balkans...
    E1b is autochthonous to Balkans, Serbs brought either R1a or I2a from NE.

    Serbs and others have taken language from Croats
    In this case both should speak West Slavic language, because according to you Croats came from Poland. In Poland South Slavic language was never registered by any historians.

    It is interesting that Serbs in majority have another type R1a haplotype known as Volga Carpatian or Northern Carpathian, who probably has a source somewhere further from White Croatia...
    If we only knew where White Croatia was.

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