Genetics confirm migration of White Croats to Croatia

[Tomenable]

BTW David criticized the Polish sampling.

In next study I suggest they use Poles from Kazakhstan!: :grin:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poles_in_Kazakhstan

 

[Милан М.]

Made mistake had my post already.

 

[Arame]

Here is a admixture plot K2-K20

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/asset?unique&id=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0135820.s003

and here is the PCA

source

 

[Arame]

BTW on Russian forums the study was criticized for not being much informative. Not answering important questions related to the location of Proto-Balto-Slav homeland also their probable Y DNA-s.

 

[hrvat22]

hrvat

The recent study on Slavic people shows that the differences between Serbs, Croats and Bosniacs are very small not to say non-existant. The small difference is only the slight increase of EEF when going to South and that has much to do with geography than other issues.

What does this have to do with Croatian ancestry and White Croats..

 

[hrvat22]

If Croats have split from Slavs from Poland, shouldn't Croats speak West Slavic language?

Perhaps in southern Poland they spoke some archaic Croatian language but after departure of White Croats, the rest of White Croats took other types of Slavic languages..

 

[LeBrok]

Perhaps in southern Poland they spoke some archaic Croatian language but after departure of White Croats, the rest of White Croats took other types of Slavic languages..

Is it possible that Serbs gave South Slavic language to Croats?

 

[hrvat22]

Is it possible that Serbs gave South Slavic language to Croats?

Is it possible that Montenegrins and Bosnians gave Slavic language to Croats....??

Serbs have haplotype E1b as second in population that has nothing to do with arrival of Slavs to Balkans...

Serbs and others have taken language from Croats who throughout history became Serbs, Bosnians and Montenegrins ...It is the logic ...Bosnians have not come from White Croatia as Bosnians and brought Bosnian language when in White Croatia lived only Croats..

It is interesting that Serbs in majority have another type R1a haplotype known as Volga Carpatian or Northern Carpathian, who probably has a source somewhere further from White Croatia...

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=zCFuZT9R8rxg.kA_7xPadU1Rc&hl=en

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1a?iframe=ymap

 

[Ike]

Serbs have haplotype E1b as second in population that has nothing to do with arrival of Slavs to Balkans...

Which should mean that they are autochthonous Balkan population? I don't think so.

 

[LeBrok]

Serbs have haplotype E1b as second in population that has nothing to do with arrival of Slavs to Balkans...

E1b is autochthonous to Balkans, Serbs brought either R1a or I2a from NE.

Serbs and others have taken language from Croats

In this case both should speak West Slavic language, because according to you Croats came from Poland. In Poland South Slavic language was never registered by any historians.

It is interesting that Serbs in majority have another type R1a haplotype known as Volga Carpatian or Northern Carpathian, who probably has a source somewhere further from White Croatia...

If we only knew where White Croatia was.

 

[hrvat22]

In this case both should speak West Slavic language, because according to you Croats came from Poland. In Poland South Slavic language was never registered by any historians.

If we only knew where White Croatia was.

Hungarians living very close to Poland and Ukraine...They have 30% of R1a haplotype and do not speak Slavic language...

Baška tablet (Croatian:Bašćanska ploča 1100..

english croatian polish

day dni dni

brothers bratiju bracia

goes iže idzie

holy svetuja świata

territory krajina kraj

wrote pisah pisal

only edino jedynie

Here are some words that are used by Poles and Croats today and year 1100. ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baška_tablet


L. Niederle held that in Prikarpatju [2] used to live with the Croatian tribe poludržavnim structure which was the center of Krakow. According to the thesis O. Šahmatova, Croats lived in the territory of Galicia [3] in the 9th century, and their main city was Džarvab. M. Barsov, toponomastic analyzing the voluminous material, trying to prove that the Croats belonged to a territory that included Prikarpatje, the area of the peaks Tatranskih Carpathians to the Tisza and its tributaries in the south Pripjeta, Dnjistra to the east and the Vistula in the north.

Medieval fortification Prikarpatja Ukrainian Carpathians and more than a century, attracting the attention of a wide circle of scientists, and amateur archaeologists. During this period it was discovered and excavated more than 200 hill-forts. Among them, known for writing the monument as a center of economic, political and cultural life of the place: Galic, Terebovlja, Peremišilj (today Przemysl, Poland), Zvenigorod, Vasiljiv etc...



http://www.slavorum.org/white-croats-migrating-slavic-tribe/

 

[Милан М.]

Hungarians living very close to Poland and Ukraine...They have 30% of R1a haplotype and do not speak Slavic language...

Baška tablet (Croatian:Bašćanska ploča 1100..

english croatian polish

day dni dni

brothers bratiju bracia

goes iže idzie

holy svetuja świata

territory krajina kraj

wrote pisah pisal

only edino jedynie

Here are some words that are used by Poles and Croats today and year 1100. ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baška_tablet


L. Niederle held that in Prikarpatju [2] used to live with the Croatian tribe poludržavnim structure which was the center of Krakow. According to the thesis O. Šahmatova, Croats lived in the territory of Galicia [3] in the 9th century, and their main city was Džarvab. M. Barsov, toponomastic analyzing the voluminous material, trying to prove that the Croats belonged to a territory that included Prikarpatje, the area of the peaks Tatranskih Carpathians to the Tisza and its tributaries in the south Pripjeta, Dnjistra to the east and the Vistula in the north.

Medieval fortification Prikarpatja Ukrainian Carpathians and more than a century, attracting the attention of a wide circle of scientists, and amateur archaeologists. During this period it was discovered and excavated more than 200 hill-forts. Among them, known for writing the monument as a center of economic, political and cultural life of the place: Galic, Terebovlja, Peremišilj (today Przemysl, Poland), Zvenigorod, Vasiljiv etc...



http://www.slavorum.org/white-croats-migrating-slavic-tribe/

The words that you put here are closest to Macedonian Slavic,Bulgarian dialects or Old Church Slavonic,OCS is based on Macedonian Slavic dialect once spoken in today Greek Macedonia,you can find good similarities especialy with Russian cause they borrowed a lot from the same.
Example from Baska tablet;
"Azъ" is typical for Macedonian and Bulgarian dialects,Croats use "Ja" today which mean "myself"
"Dni" typical for Macedonian Slavic dialects and Bulgarian,Croatian "dana" which mean days.
"Pisah" "Zidah" the "h" at the end is typical for Macedonian Slavic,Bulgarian,Croatian will be "Pisao" "Zidao"
"Bratija"- "Bratja" -Bulgarian,Croatian-"braća" brothers
"Svetuja -"Svjata-Bulgarian,Croatian-"Sveta" holy
"Klъni" typical for Macedonian dialects cause you find "L" and "ъ" not common in Croatian "Kuni" which is to "curse"
"vъ" "tъ" "dni" -typical for today Macedonian Bulgarian dialects "vъv tъ (тя)dni" Croatian "u te dane"-in those days.
"vъ edino" typical for Bulgarian,Macedonian dialects.
When i read the Baska tablet to me is more similar with present Bulgaro-Macedonian then with Croatian.

 

[hrvat22]

The words that you put here are closest to Macedonian Slavic,Bulgarian dialects or Old Church Slavonic,OCS is based on Macedonian Slavic dialect once spoken in today Greek Macedonia,you can find good similarities especialy with Russian cause they borrowed a lot from the same.
Example from Baska tablet;
"Azъ" is typical for Macedonian and Bulgarian dialects,Croats use "Ja" today which mean "myself"
"Dni" typical for Macedonian Slavic dialects and Bulgarian,Croatian "dana" which mean days.
"Pisah" "Zidah" the "h" at the end is typical for Macedonian Slavic,Bulgarian,Croatian will be "Pisao" "Zidao"
"Bratija"- "Bratja" -Bulgarian,Croatian-"braća" brothers
"Svetuja -"Svjata-Bulgarian,Croatian-"Sveta" holy
"Klъni" typical for Macedonian dialects cause you find "L" and "ъ" not common in Croatian "Kuni" which is to "curse"
"vъ" "tъ" "dni" -typical for today Macedonian Bulgarian dialects "vъv tъ (тя)dni" Croatian "u te dane"-in those days.
"vъ edino" typical for Bulgarian,Macedonian dialects.
When i read the Baska tablet to me is more similar with present Bulgaro-Macedonian then with Croatian.

If this is true Croatian and Macedonian originate from same language therefore there are many similarities... Croatian language today is not same as 1000 years ago, perhaps Macedonian is partly same..

In Macedonians and Bulgarians exist I2a1b2a1a1 haplotype which has source in White Croatia and it is possible that some words are similar to Croatian words today and through history....

It is interesting that Slovenian language is ancestor of Croatian language although today are quite different...

 

[Милан М.]

View attachment 7412

If this is true Croatian and Macedonian originate from same language therefore there are many similarities... Croatian language today is not same as 1000 years ago, perhaps Macedonian is partly same..

In Macedonians and Bulgarians exist I2a1b2a1a1 haplotype which has source in White Croatia and it is possible that some words are similar to Croatian words today and through history....

It is interesting that Slovenian language is ancestor of Croatian language although today are quite different...

Well it's not the same,with reformation on languages many "archaic" dialects went extinct and continue to do so,that's pitty,they choose dialect made it official and majority spoke it,prior languages were much more similar among South Slavs,however South Slavic languages are more similar amongst themselves then Eastern or Western among them,now you have six states all create their own languages,which i call it dialects regardless they "innovate" things to make them as much different,the things they did perhaps when they were creating separate ethnicities and their own languages.

 

[Ike]

You totally missed the point of LeBrok's post.

Serbs and others have taken language from Croats who throughout history became Serbs, Bosnians and Montenegrins

How do you imagine a West Slavic dialect transfer from Croats to Serbians, Bosnian and Montenegrins and then separately transform (in 10 centuries) within all ethnicities to end up as same (but non Western Slavic) language?

It is interesting that Slovenian language is ancestor of Croatian language although today are quite different...

So, all of the above languages stem from Slovenian? According to whom?

 

[hrvat22]

You totally missed the point of LeBrok's post.



How do you imagine a West Slavic dialect transfer from Croats to Serbians, Bosnian and Montenegrins and then separately transform (in 10 centuries) within all ethnicities to end up as same (but non Western Slavic) language?

What does language do with genes..?

Hungarians are genetically Slavs but they not speak Indo-European language..

Serbs coming from Lusatia but they not speak Sorbian language..

Most Serbian R1a is from Volga Carpathian region but today Serbs not speak Russian or Ukrainian..

Majority Croatian genes are from southern Poland but Croats not speak Polish..

Serbs have in population second haplotype E1b who has no connection with Slavs but these 20% Serbs speak Slavic... same as Montenegrins..

So, all of the above languages stem from Slovenian? According to whom?

I looked at linguistic tree...



Here are Slovenian and Croatian from same source ..This means that originate from one language or same source..

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1b/Slavic_languages_tree.svg

 

[LeBrok]

Hungarians living very close to Poland and Ukraine...They have 30% of R1a haplotype and do not speak Slavic language...

Exactly and we know the source, the Hungarian tribes from the Steppe. Now, what is the source of South Slavic language? Serbs or Bulgarians brought it in from Ukraine? If you claim that Croats came from Poland, as you claim, than original Croatian language wasn't South Slavic.
There is easier explanation however, Croats, Serbs and even Bulgarian and Macedonian Slavs came from same area somewhere in Ukraine.

Unless we really go back to year 600 BC, the times when whole Slavs spoke same language, then it is possible that South Slavs came from Poland, but we can't speak of any differentiation of South Slavs yet, to Serbs or Croats, which happened hundreds of years later.
In this case looking for White Croatia in Poland around year 1,200 for example, doesn't make sense.

 

[hrvat22]

LeBrok

Exactly and we know the source, the Hungarian tribes from the Steppe.

Prove with haplotypes, Serbs coming from Lusatia however genes tell a different story ..

If you claim that Croats came from Poland, as you claim, than original Croatian language wasn't South Slavic.

How Croats speak does not change their genes, Let's say that Croats speak Chinese, male population still coming from southern Poland to Croatia not from China...How and why speak Chinese it is question for linguists and historians..

In this case looking for White Croatia in Poland around year 1,200 for example, doesn't make sense.

I said that some words are similar, but then is not same type of Slavic language..

 

[LeBrok]

How Croats speak does not change their genes, Let's say that Croats speak Chinese, male population still coming from southern Poland to Croatia not from China...How and why speak Chinese it is question for linguists and historians..

I have seen the best genetic connection with Czechs.

 

[Finalise]

Greeks have more R1a than Bosniaks, therefore Greeks are more Slavic than Bosniaks. This is the logic in these forums. I bet the majority of R1a in the Balkans is pre-Slavic IE.