NothingWhat does this have to do with arrival of Croats from White Croatia..
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NothingWhat does this have to do with arrival of Croats from White Croatia..
Of course it will be identical,they are find among Slavic countries,what about the very pre Roman names that are identical?such is Dukla,Sava,Drava,Ibar,Timok,Timachus,Timava, Tergeste or Trgoviste,i need more then 17 pages Safarik did good job on ancient toponyms,find his work and are from Illyrian,Moesian,Macedonian lands,found north?as Trubachev long ago noted,the most homogenous toponyms are the one recently colonized,not in the ancient lands.It's just part
http://www.kapitaltrade.hr/otvoreni-pecati/3-naslov/vii-dio/
While in Czech Republic, Slovakia and Poland there are so many place names that are identical or nearly identical to today's place names in Medjimurje, Zagorje, Slavonia, Lika, Dalmatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina and elsewhere, that it took more than 17 pages of the book to get them all cited...
Genetics show that Croats coming from White Croatia..
No it doesn't. It comes from what you suspect was White Croatia some 1500 years ago.
Do you have any 10th century samples from Libice?
"For a time it was also a center of White Croatia until around 995 A.D. "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libice_nad_Cidlinou
You should look for White Croats genetics there better:
https://glosbe.com/sh/en/hrbat
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hrvat22 said:The Sorbs also showed evidence of subtle levels of genetic isolation in comparison with samples from non-isolated European populations
Lusatian Sorbs are because of Germanic tribes that surrounded them
Lusatian Sorbs have main R1a type M458, Serbs have R1a Z280
DejaVu said:In 2014 results of BigY Survey Program give us a new portion of knowledge about a big and not structured up till now part of Slavic languages people I-L621 L147.2 CTS5966+ which are a remains of Venedi Peoples from Roman Empire period (see the location of the Venedi in the upper Vistula region and south of Polesian Lowland in times of the Roman empire under Hadrian (ruled 117-138), sourcehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Veneti (see map below)
This is not true, Sorbs have both types.
Ca. 37% of Lusatian Sorbs have M458, and ca. 28% of Lusatian Sorbs have Z280.
In total around 65% of Sorbs have R1a.
Serbs also have both these subclades - ca. 10% have Z280 and ca. 4% have M458.
In total around 15% of Serbs have R1a.
Of course you can find also different percenages depending on study and samples.
For example Bosnian Serbs have different frequencies than Serbs from Serbia.
Does it mean that Bosnian Serbs are not descended from Serbs from Serbia?
It is simply the case, that when just part of a tribe migrates, they are usually not perfectly representative of the total population. It will always be a lottery. For example there could be 100 Proto-Serbs, 50 with R1a and 50 with I2a. Of them, 50 migrated to Germany and 50 to the Balkans, but among those who migrated to Germany there could be 35 with R1a and 15 with I2a, while in the other group there could be 35 with I2a and 15 with R1a. For example. After migrating, various lineages could procreate at different rates (i.e. John with R1a could have 10 sons and 2 daughters, Jacob with I2a could have 1 son and 7 daughters - for example), leading to changes in frequencies. They also mixed with different groups of locals in both places - Serbs in the Balkans mixed with local Non-Serbs.
I inserted "John" and "Jacob" as examples (I know these aren't Slavic names). :grin:
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/balticsea/about/news
SNP S17250 divide I-L621 L147.2 (CTS5966) Dinarics subclade
In 2014 results of BigY Survey Program give us a new portion of knowledge about a big and not structured up till now part of Slavic languages people I-L621 L147.2 CTS5966+ which are a remains of Venedi Peoples from Roman Empire period (see the location of the Venedi in the upper Vistula region and south of Polesian Lowland in times of the Roman empire under Hadrian (ruled 117-138), source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Veneti (see map below)
The current state of knowledge about the diversity within the group I-L621 L147.2 CTS5966+ is shown in ISOGG phylotree: http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpI.html
It is divided between two or tree subclades: S17250 - majority of tested, and Y4460 possible a remnant of the Baltic Veneti, and maybe Z17855
S17250 is divided further into at least three subclades, maybe represented 3 area of settlement/3 tribes groups:
- Z16971 (probably White Croats descendants),
- Y4882 (probably a Drevlyans and Dregoviches descendants),
- A356/Z16983 (probably Moravians descendants).
Y4460 is divided further into two subclades:
Lack of geographical separation of Venedes caused mixed population and we are not able to predict on STR basis real SNP subclades.
- Z16973 with subbranch Y3118 and
- S8201 & Y8942
second one with a subclade:
- Y13498
But only inside of those subclades an STR analysis is valuable. So it is strong recommendation for testing, S17250 at first.
I has to do with local autochthonous population who lived there before Slavs came, and with whom Slavs mixed after arrival.hrvat
The recent study on Slavic people shows that the differences between Serbs, Croats and Bosniacs are very small not to say non-existant. The small difference is only the slight increase of EEF when going to South and that has much to do with geography than other issues.
If Croats have split from Slavs from Poland, shouldn't Croats speak West Slavic language?
The farther south you go the more EEF there is. It means the farther south the denser ethnic population of EEF was, not just Romania/Carpathes.LeBrok
Yes of course the more southern they moved then more denser was the native population. Also it seems that Carpathes (Romania) served as a refugium for EEF.
I noticed that too. The unusual spikes/differences between polish samplings. There are two explanations. Either unusual and coincidental samplings were present or polish population is not very well mixed. According to David is the former, claimed to be Estonians, but when I checked, even Estonians don't have such long yellow spikes.BTW David criticized the Polish sampling.
BTW David criticized the Polish sampling.
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