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Thread: Unetice culture was clearly multi-ethnic

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
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    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    Unetice culture was clearly multi-ethnic

    DNA Land Ancestry Reports for 3 samples of Unetice culture show stark differences between them:

    By the way - RISE139 explains where did those "Polish-like" warriors in Tollense battle come from:

    RISE139 (Chociwel, Western Pomerania), Unetice culture:



    RISE145 (Polwica, Greater Poland), Unetice culture:



    RISE150 (Przeclawice, Lower Silesia), Unetice culture:



    As you can see RISE139 and RISE145 are similar to each other, but RISE150 is totally different.

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    Country: Finland



    No surprise as it has the appearance of an trade organisation.

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    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    where did Unetice originate? was it Bohemia?

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    I think in Poland - RISE431 from Poland (Łęki Małe) was described as "proto-Unetice".

    I could not upload it because it was in the wrong format, but I guess it would be like RISE139 and RISE145, not like RISE150.

    By the way, RISE139 and RISE145 are very similar autosomally to many of modern Poles.

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    And I0116 (Unetice sample from Esperstedt in Germany) is more similar to Przeclawice than to Chociwel and Polwica:


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    And here is my result (I'm from Greater Poland - the same region as RISE145):

    IMO my result is very similar to those two Bronze Age results (RISE139 and RISE145):



    I uploaded my genome to GEDmatch and tried all calculators.

    I got very interesting results with PuntDNAL K15 calculator.

    I'm apparently close to Poles, Swedes and Norwegians - but very far from South Germans:

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population(source) Distance


    1 Polish 2.06
    2 Swedish 4.03
    3 Norwegian 6.35

    4 North_German 6.79
    5 Belarusian 7.58
    6 Slovenian 7.94
    7 Scottish 8.18
    8 Austrian 8.36
    9 Orcadian 8.57
    10 Irish 8.96
    11 Russian 9.03
    12 Hungarian 9.25
    13 Mordovian 9.39
    14 English 9.55
    15 Karelian 10
    16 Finnish 11.06
    17 Lithuanian 11.07
    18 Croatian 11.26
    19 Utahn_White 12.85
    20 South_German 13.53

    I wonder if other native Wielkopolans also get similar DNA Land and GEDmatch results.

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    Interesting interesting...
    Species adapt to their environment,
    and those who do so best (the fittest) survive and prosper the most.

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    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    It could be that the two more Slavic samples are descended from the Corded Ware (which was later overrun by Unetice), while the two more Northwest European samples represent the new wave associated with the Proto-Celts and Proto-Germans (mostly R1b, but visibly also I2, like the I0116 sample).
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    It could be that the two more Slavic samples are descended from the Corded Ware (which was later overrun by Unetice), while the two more Northwest European samples represent the new wave associated with the Proto-Celts and Proto-Germans (mostly R1b, but visibly also I2, like the I0116 sample).
    Proto-celt ?................first and oldest celt is Lepontic as stated by scholars

    Lepontic is Swiss and north-italian

    Bichon is I2a in switzerland ...............ancient remendello samples are all 100% I2a

    logic states , that "celtic" should be associated with I2a before any R1b



    I would even place G2a between I2a and R1b ..............so it would read I2a then G2a
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Ignoring MJ Anctil - ‎2016

    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Proto-celt ?................first and oldest celt is Lepontic as stated by scholars

    Lepontic is Swiss and north-italian

    Bichon is I2a in switzerland ...............ancient remendello samples are all 100% I2a

    logic states , that "celtic" should be associated with I2a before any R1b



    I would even place G2a between I2a and R1b ..............so it would read I2a then G2a

    Sile,
    I don't understand why some are so Olymply ignored. Mallory clearly showed a couple weeks ago that the several proto celtic did not have a Genetic linkage, for instance with the celtics in the UK. Or even La tene with hallstatt...

    I truly think there will come a time when "Celtic" is drop and the structure of those settlements will be recognized as per what they were.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6

    Ethnic group
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    Country: Poland



    "North Slavic" component - despite its name - is actually also common among Balts and Scandinavians (both ancient and modern). For example RISE98 who was probably a Proto-Germanic speaker (the oldest U106 known to date) scores 43% North Slavic:

    https://s11.postimg.io/pxw0yvftv/RISE98.png

    A better name for "North Slavic" would be "Balto-Slavic" or "Northeast European minus Finnish" (that's what it really is).

    RISE98 in DNA Land scores 46% of "Northeast Euro" component, including 43% of "North Slavic" and 2.5% of "Finnish".

    However, "Northwest Euro" component was more dominant in RISE98, he scores 50% of this component in DNA Land:



    By comparison, a modern Austrian German from Lavanttal scores only 25% of "Northwest Euro", less than me (36%):

    He is almost as much "North-East Euro" as me, less "North-West Euro", but much more "Southern Euro" than me:

    My combined Southern European score is 9.5%, while this Austrian German has 24.2% (18% + 6.2% Sardinian):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavanttal


  12. #12
    MarkoZ
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    For example RISE98 who was probably a Proto-Germanic speaker

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    MarkoZ - Nordic Bronze Age culture is associated with Proto-Germanic speakers:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Bronze_Age

    Especially in the region of Scania, where that RISE98 guy lived / was buried:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scania

    If RISE98 lived before PGMc developed, then he could speak Pre-Proto-Germanic.

  14. #14
    MarkoZ
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    MarkoZ - Nordic Bronze Age culture is associated with Proto-Germanic speakers:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Bronze_Age

    Especially in the region of Scania, where that RISE98 guy lived / was buried:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scania

    If RISE98 lived before PGMc developed, then he could speak Pre-Proto-Germanic.
    No. If he was an Indo-European speaker he would have spoken a dialect very close to the proto-language. Proto-Germanic is an iron age phenomenon.

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    MarkoZ,

    Proto-Germanic is an iron age phenomenon.
    Source?

    Maciamo,

    Northwest European samples represent the new wave associated with the Proto-Celts and Proto-Germans
    I've been told that modern Swedes have similar scores to RISE98 in DNA Land.

    That is, roughly equal Northwest and Northeast European + a small bit of Southern.

    R1b-U106 has not been found in Bell Beaker, it rather came along another route.

    ===============

    PS: I also uploaded Rathlin Island genome (Early Bronze Age Ireland) to DNA Land.

    Wait a moment, I have to take a screenshot and I will post it.

    Edit:

    Here it is - Rathlin 1 genome (I guess that he could be a Pre-Proto-Celtic speaker?):

    https://s18.postimg.io/mya56j6jt/Rathlin_1.png


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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6

    Ethnic group
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    Country: Poland



    Rathlin 1 ("Pre-Proto-Celtic"):

    Northwest Euro - 77%
    Northeast Euro - 21%
    Kalash - 2%

    RISE98 ("Pre-Proto-Germanic"):

    Northwest Euro - 50%
    Northeast Euro - 46%
    Sardinian - 3%
    Ambiguous - 1%

    Differences are obvious, and you can see that Northwest Euro is a more Celtic component in its origin.

    Proto-Germanics in Scandinavia were more intermediate between North-West and North-East Europe.

    =========================

    By comparison an Ancient Balt (I suppose that he was West Baltic - Old Prussian - rather than East Baltic):

    RISE598 (Late Bronze Age; Sudovia region; most certainly a Baltic-speaker):

    Northeast Euro - 100%

    He was buried near modern Polish-Lithuanian border, in a region historically called Sudovia (Yotvingia):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudovia

    RISE598 is so far the only ancient who scores 100% "North Slavic" (= Northeast Euro minus Finnish):

    https://s21.postimg.io/iaa9n28yv/RISE598.png


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    I will upload some ancient genomes to GEDmatch (including these three - RISE98, Rathlin 1 and RISE598).

    Unless they were already uploaded by someone else before (but in case of RISE598, I don't think that it was).

  18. #18
    MarkoZ
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    It gets better and better: Celtic in Ireland around 2,000 BC and Germanic in Scandinavia around 3,000 BC. I suggest you do some rudimentary reading before wasting more time on a subject you apparently know nothing about. Plugging ancient genomes into calculators for designed modern day populations is dubious enough as it is -- thinking the results tell you something about those ancient cultures' linguistic features is not even pseudoscience anymore.

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    ^^^ Have you read Jean Manco's "Ancestral Journeys" ??? There is a theory that Bell Beaker Folks spoke Pre-Proto-Celtic.

    Rathlin Island skeletons were probably people of the Food Vessel culture, which descended from Bell Beaker culture.

    In any case, Bronze Age Irish samples are genetically very similar to Iron Age Insular Celts, as well as to modern-day Irish.

    So either they spoke Celtic, or Celtic was introduced later but as a cultural process, with not much of a population turnover.

    In Ireland ancient DNA suggests a turnover (replacement) between Neolithic and Bronze Age; then continuity to present-day.

    There was no any Post-Bronze replacement in Ireland (only admixtures from outside, but the "core population" is the same).

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    There was a total population replacement in Ireland between the Middle Neolithic and the Early Bronze Age.

    Neolithic Irish were most genetically similar to modern Sardinians (!), but Bronze Age Irish - to modern Irish.

  21. #21
    MarkoZ
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    ^^^ Have you read Jean Manco's "Ancestral Journeys" ???
    I prefer books written by specialists. And so should you.

    There's no way insular Celtic would be so similar to Gaulish if they separated 2,000 BC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    or Celtic was introduced later but as a cultural process, with not much of a population turnover.
    This.

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    But some form of Indo-European speech - and probably very similar to Celtic - was spoken in Bronze Age Ireland.

    A good analogy is what happened later in Gaul. Celtic (Gaulish) was replaced by Italic (Latin) after the Roman conquest. However, both of these languages were IE and - actually - quite closely related (both descended from Proto-Italo-Celtic branch of IE).

    Some form of Pre-Proto-Italo-Celtic was also spoken in Bronze Age Ireland, later replaced by another form of it.

  23. #23
    MarkoZ
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    But some form of Indo-European speech - and probably very similar to Celtic - was spoken in Bronze Age Ireland.

    A good analogy is what happened later in Gaul. Celtic (Gaulish) was replaced by Italic (Latin) after the Roman conquest. However, both of these languages were IE and - actually - quite closely related (both descended from Proto-Italo-Celtic branch of IE).

    Some form of Pre-Proto-Italo-Celtic was also spoken in Bronze Age Ireland, later replaced by another form of it.
    Impossible to know for sure. 'Pre-Proto-Italo-Celtic' is hardly a thing and the substrata in Brythonic and Gaelic don't look very Indo-European at all. Pictish was classified by Hamp as non-Indo-European, although I'm not sure how definitive this is. At the very least there is a strong pre-IE stratum.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    By comparison, a modern Austrian German from Lavanttal scores only 25% of "Northwest Euro", less than me (36%):

    He is almost as much "North-East Euro" as me, less "North-West Euro", but much more "Southern Euro" than me:

    My combined Southern European score is 9.5%, while this Austrian German has 24.2% (18% + 6.2% Sardinian):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavanttal
    Lavanttal seems to be located in a region where the Slovene minority lives. Are you sure this "Austrian" is not one of them?

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    MarkoZ - Nordic Bronze Age culture is associated with Proto-Germanic speakers:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Bronze_Age

    Especially in the region of Scania, where that RISE98 guy lived / was buried:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scania

    If RISE98 lived before PGMc developed, then he could speak Pre-Proto-Germanic.
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    No. If he was an Indo-European speaker he would have spoken a dialect very close to the proto-language. Proto-Germanic is an iron age phenomenon.
    Pre-Proto-Germanic would refer to the language stage of Proto-Germanic before Grimm's Law came into effect. And yes, it would have been a language much closer to PIE (or late PIE, to be accurate). Euler1 wrote an extensive book on the issue, even if I disagree with his conclusion that Grimm's Law occured so late (here I would agree with you that it was near the start of the iron age).

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    I prefer books written by specialists. And so should you.

    There's no way insular Celtic would be so similar to Gaulish if they separated 2,000 BC.

    This.
    The Insular Celtic scenario is wrong. To cite Matasovic2 (a Croatian celtologist), Insular Celtic is a language area. All of the 'old' Celtic languages (Primitive Irish, Common Brythonic, Gaulish, Galatian, Lepontic, Celtiberian, Gallaecian) were all fairly similar to each other.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    Impossible to know for sure. 'Pre-Proto-Italo-Celtic' is hardly a thing and the substrata in Brythonic and Gaelic don't look very Indo-European at all. Pictish was classified by Hamp as non-Indo-European, although I'm not sure how definitive this is. At the very least there is a strong pre-IE stratum.
    Pictish was a P-Celtic language, similar to Brythonic and Gaulish. See Forsyth3 for reference.

    1Sprache und Herkunft der Germanen,'Language and Origin of the Germanic peoples'
    (Wolfram Euler, 2009).

    2Insular Celtic as a Language Area (Ranko Matasovic, 2007)

    3Languages of Pictland (Katherine Forsyth, 1997)

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