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Thread: The Neolithic Transition in the Baltic Was Not Driven by Admixture with Early Europea

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    The Neolithic Transition in the Baltic Was Not Driven by Admixture with Early Europea

    http://www.cell.com/current-biology/...822(16)31542-1

    Highlights




    • A degree of genetic continuity from the Mesolithic to the Neolithic in the Baltic


    • Steppe-related genetic influences found in the Baltic during the Neolithic


    • No Anatolian farmer-related genetic admixture in Neolithic Baltic samples


    • Steppe ancestry in Latvia at the time of the emergence of Balto-Slavic languages


    ----

    • Have not read this yet, but in the picture I see R1b1b in Latvia before 7000 years, together with Narva culture and earliest pottery??


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

    R1b found in Mesolithic Hunter-Gatherer in Latvia

    Fresh news from Anthrogenica, Mesolithic sample of R1b haplogroup in Latvia:

    Parastais wrote: "Guys, more fun, more fun -
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php...h-Early-Europea
    Mesolithic R1b in Latvia, Zvejnieki burial :)

    Link: http://www.cell.com/current-biology/fullte...9822(16)31542-1

    Highlights:

    • A degree of genetic continuity from the Mesolithic to the Neolithic in the Baltic
    • Steppe-related genetic influences found in the Baltic during the Neolithic
    • No Anatolian farmer-related genetic admixture in Neolithic Baltic samples
    • Steppe ancestry in Latvia at the time of the emergence of Balto-Slavic language"

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    Amazing, two samples out of three in Mesolithic Latvia were R1b1b:

    Further, the Y chromosomes of two of our Latvian Mesolithic samples were assigned to haplogroup R1b (the maximum-likelihood sub-haplogroup is R1b1b), which is the most common haplogroup found in modern Western Europeans [36].
    Last edited by Tomenable; 02-02-17 at 20:55.

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    Latvian Mesolithic hunters with R1b were White (unlike Mesolithic hunters in Western Europe):

    "tentative evidence for progressive skin depigmentation in Mesolithic Latvia based on mutations in the SLC24A5 and SLC45A2 genes (rs1426654 and rs16891982, respectively"

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    R1a in Karelia and Russia, R1b in Latvia and Russia.

    Baltic Sea to Russia = Proto-Indo-European homeland.

    Check also:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ba...9;s_Epic_Tales

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ar...e_in_the_Vedas

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Latvian Mesolithic hunters with R1b were White (unlike Mesolithic hunters in Western Europe):

    "tentative evidence for progressive skin depigmentation in Mesolithic Latvia based on mutations in the SLC24A5 and SLC45A2 genes (rs1426654 and rs16891982, respectively"
    Blue eyes too.
    So, we have white blue eyed R1b1b guys chilling out near Burtnieks lake (Zvejnieki) in Latvia 7000 years ago.

    Must re-read on Narva culture, where it came from.

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    This definitely confirms two of my long-held prejudices. The well-founded one that North-Eastern Europeans made the transition to agriculture by themselves, and the more contentious one that R1b1 became a Villabrunna-WHG marker in the European context.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    This definitely confirms two of my long-held prejudices. The well-founded one that North-Eastern Europeans made the transition to agriculture by themselves, and the more contentious one that R1b1 became a Villabrunna-WHG marker in the European context.
    This is not really confirmed that they did it by themselves, it is more about that it did not come from Anatolia, but later with Corded Ware.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Blue eyes too.
    So, we have white blue eyed R1b1b guys chilling out near Burtnieks lake (Zvejnieki) in Latvia 7000 years ago.

    Must re-read on Narva culture, where it came from.
    Sounds almost like a study written by Straight White Male Northern European Supremacist Patriarchs!

    ROTFL

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    I think we can merge my thread into your thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    This is not really confirmed that they did it by themselves, it is more about that it did not come from Anatolia, but later with Corded Ware.
    I should have said 'without demic impact from Anatolia'. Although it might turn out to be quite a bit more complex at the regional level.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    So 3 out of 3 oldest samples of R1b are from Pre-Neolithic Europe.

    Is there anyone who still believes in West Asian origin of R1b crap?

    Moreover, I think R1b-V88 were descended from Villabruna WHG.

    Meanwhile, R1b-M269 clade emerged in [North-]Eastern Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    This definitely confirms two of my long-held prejudices. The well-founded one that North-Eastern Europeans made the transition to agriculture by themselves, and the more contentious one that R1b1 became a Villabrunna-WHG marker in the European context.
    Sorry, Marko, where do you get that they made the transition "by themselves"? Wasn't it already known that the transition took place when Corded Ware arrived? I haven't yet had time to look at the paper. Do they have evidence that it took place before that migration occurred? Other than the R1b1 Mesolithic find, what is it that is new here?

    Ed. A bit of a cross posting thing here. I see the issue has already been addressed.


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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    R1b1 became a Villabrunna-WHG marker in the European context.
    Villabruna descendants live in Chad today, and are known as R1b-V88, who came from Paleolithic Europe.

    They came to Africa together with Upper Paleolithic European women (such as U6 mtDNA haplogroup):

    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_U6_mtDNA.shtml

    If I recall correctly, at least one sample of U6 was found in Upper Paleolithic, Pre-LGM, Europe.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    So 3 out of 3 oldest samples of R1b are from Pre-Neolithic Europe.

    Is there anyone who still believes in West Asian origin of R1b crap?

    Moreover, I think R1b-V88 were descended from Villabruna WHG.

    Meanwhile, R1b-M269 clade emerged in [North-]Eastern Europe.
    Stop jumping to all sorts of conclusions, as usual. Also, clean up your language.

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    The Neolithic Transition in the Baltic Was Not Driven by Admixture with Early Europea

    The Neolithic transitions in the Baltic and Dnieper Rapids region of Ukraine show very different archaeological and genetic dynamics to those observed in Central and Western Europe. Although in central Europe pottery and agriculture arrive as a package, in the Baltic and Dnieper Rapids the onset of the Neolithic is characterized by the appearance of ceramics, with a definitive shift to an agro-pastoralist economy only occurring during the Late Neolithic/Bronze Age [13, 14, 15, 16, 19]. Although the prolonged and piecemeal uptake of Neolithic characteristics in these regions makes it challenging to attribute a definitive shift in ideology or lifestyle, it does, along with evidence for continuities in material culture and settlement patterns, suggest that Neolithic features were predominantly adopted by indigenous hunter-gatherers in this region [13, 14, 15, 16, 37]. We find genetic evidence in support of this in the affinity of the Latvian and Ukrainian Neolithic samples, Latvian_MN1 and Ukrainian_N1, to earlier Mesolithic samples from the same respective regions. However, we also find indications of genetic impact from exogenous populations during the Neolithic, most likely from northern Eurasia and the Pontic Steppe. These influences are distinct from the Anatolian-farmer-related gene flow found in central Europe during this period. It is interesting to note that even in outlying areas of Europe, such as Sweden and Ireland [38, 39], an Anatolian-farmer-related genetic signature is present by the Middle to Late Neolithic period (∼5,300–4,700 cal BP). We conclude that the gradual appearance of features associated with the Neolithic package in the Baltic and Dnieper Rapids was not tied to the same major genetic changes as in other regions of Europe. The emergence of Neolithic features in the absence of immigration by Anatolian farmers highlights the roles of horizontal cultural transmission and potentially independent innovation during the Neolithic transition.

    http://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(16)31542-1

    Some think that corded ware and later potapovka/sintashta originated from herders in the steppe/forest area or even further north.
    This study makes that more likely.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Sorry, Marko, where do you get that they made the transition "by themselves"? Wasn't it already known that the transition took place when Corded Ware arrived? I haven't yet had time to look at the paper. Do they have evidence that it took place before that migration occurred? Other than the R1b1 Mesolithic find, what is it that is new here?

    Ed. A bit of a cross posting thing here. I see the issue has already been addressed.
    I just skimmed the admixture analysis - Latvia_LN1 (early Corded Ware) does have substantial farmer admixture. Which leaves me wondering why the authors would chose that headline.

    My earlier assumption was based on the dates of Corded Ware in Finland and Latvia.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Villabruna descendants live in Chad today, and are known as R1b-V88, who came from Paleolithic Europe.

    They came to Africa together with Upper Paleolithic European women (such as U6 mtDNA haplogroup):

    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_U6_mtDNA.shtml

    If I recall correctly, at least one sample of U6 was found in Upper Paleolithic, Pre-LGM, Europe.
    What on earth? The most probable estimate for the arrival of V88 deep in Africa is long after the paleolithic. It probably arrived with herders after the domestication of animals in the Near East.

    Perhaps you should contain your joy that another north-east European mesolithic hunter was WHITE skinned. It seems it has made you forget much of the information which has already been discussed here.

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    Looks more like R1b with U5b Mtdna was more important in a " epigravettian " context in epipaleolithic / mesolithic than people think. U5b is the main mtdna haplogroup found in Baltic Mesolithic Kunda, Narva, Zedmar cultures, likely comes from south-west europe, maybe linked with R1b and solutrean culture, hypothesis that people would put in a hole, slowely came interessting.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Villabruna descendants live in Chad today, and are known as R1b-V88, who came from Paleolithic Europe.

    They came to Africa together with Upper Paleolithic European women (such as U6 mtDNA haplogroup):

    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_U6_mtDNA.shtml

    If I recall correctly, at least one sample of U6 was found in Upper Paleolithic, Pre-LGM, Europe.
    Villabruna was pré-V88, not V88, it probably branched of from V88 abt 16 ka, while TMRCA of V88 is 11.8 ka
    TMRCA of V88 in Africa is only abt 5.5 ka, just before the foundation of Egypt

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    Latvian hunters with R1b are not autosomally pure WHG. They are EHG-WHG mixtures:

    In keeping with their geographical origins,they are in an intermediate position between Western European hunter-gatherer samples (WHG; from Luxembourg, Hungary, Italy, France, and Switzerland) and Eastern European hunter-gatherer samples (EHG; from Russia).

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Latvian hunters with R1b are not autosomally pure WHG. They are EHG-WHG mixtures:
    You might want to quote the full text and look at the admixture analysis. Those Mesolithic hunters are less 'EHG' shifted than the hunters from Scandinavia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    I just skimmed the admixture analysis - Latvia_LN1 (early Corded Ware) does have substantial farmer admixture. Which leaves me wondering why the authors would chose that headline.

    My earlier assumption was based on the dates of Corded Ware in Finland and Latvia.
    We already know that Corded Ware had EEF, and we know they also had CHG, so how precisely could these Latvian Late Neolithic/Corded Ware admixed people not have had "farmer" ancestry? The admixture analysis is just further confirmation of what we would assume to be the case, yes? That's why I asked if the samples were from a period from before the Corded Ware folks arrived. If that were the case then the claim would make sense, but not this way.

    Well, I shouldn't say that until I carefully read the whole thing. Maybe there's something else in the paper that explains it. Or maybe they just mean it didn't arrive directly from Anatolia via Central Europe?

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    I still remember the "one cannot learn how to farm without having farmer admixture" fallacy:

    (...) It is striking that we did not find evidence for early European or Anatolian farmer admixture in any of our Latvian Neolithic samples using both D statistics (Table 2) and ADMIXTURE (Figure 2A). This lack of admixture is also supported by the mitochondrial haplogroup of the Latvian Neolithic samples (all belong to U; Figure 1), which is prevalent in European hunter-gatherers [1, 35], including our Latvian Mesolithic samples, but not in early farmers. It is interesting that among the grave goods found in the burial of Latvia_LN1 was a chisel made from the bone of a domesticated goat or sheep [17, 21]. The presence of this tool made from a domesticate as well as dietary isotope data (δ15N and δ13C), which show greater reliance on terrestrial resources than in previous periods [17], is consistent with either the adoption of farming without early European farmer-related genetic admixture or the existence of trade networks with farming communities that were largely independent of genomic exchange. Although we find no genetic input from Anatolian or early European farmers in our time series, ADMIXTURE analysis of an Estonian Corded Ware sample [26] (Figure 2B) as suggested that this farmer genetic influence, which is present in contemporary Northern European populations (Figure S2), had arrived in the Baltic by at least the Bronze Age. (...)
    I was insisting that cultural transition is possible without genetic admixture. So who was racist?

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    isn't R1b1b M335, a rare clade today a non existing in Europe ?
    it is a very old clade, subclade of R1b1, TMRCA 18.8 ka

    it confirms my theory of a homeland of R1a/R1b further east (Oxus & Jaxartes rivers) and split into 2 groups westbound, 1 north of the Caspian Sea into Europe and another south of the Caspian into Zagros/Transcaucasia/Eastern Anatolia

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