The Neolithic Transition in the Baltic Was Not Driven by Admixture with Early Europea

[bicicleur 2]

another question
could white skin and blue eyes have originated in the Latvian mesolithic and further spread with corded ware & sintashta ?

 

[Tomenable]

However modern Balts do have Anatolian genes

Did low coverage sample RISE598 (Late Bronze Age Lithuania) already have them?

I think Trzciniec culture already had Anatolian genes. PL_N17 was part of Trzciniec:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/33508-Poland-EBA-R1a-Z280?p=500822&viewfull=1#post500822

This is a high coverage sample - which calc. is the best for checking EEF admixture?

==================

Davidski modeled PL_N17 as:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthr...-the-News-quot&p=211240&viewfull=1#post211240

Yamnaya_Samara 0.677
Lengyel_LN 0.252
Western_HG 0.065
Nganasan 0.006

Or in another model:

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/02/first-look-at-polish-early-bronze-age.html

Yamnaya_Samara 0.687±0.040
Lengyel_LN 0.249±0.037
Western_HG 0.064±0.028

Yamnaya_Samara 61.9
Lengyel_LN:I1495 25.6
Western_HG 12.6

More about Lengyel sample I1495 can be found here:

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/europeanneolithicdna.shtml

Lengyel

Hungary

Apc-Berekalja I [I1495/NE 7]

M

4490-4360 BC

I2a

N1a1a1a

 

[Angela]

I have to read it further, Angela, but for now the title seems correct to me.
If what Markoz says is rigth about CW originating in the Baltic, there is no EEF admixture.
But EEF itself becomes a very misleading term now.

I actually meant the conclusion that agriculture was autonomously arrived at in northeastern Europe, although I also hadn't considered Corded Ware starting out that far north.

If, as Marko is suggesting, it started out this far north, then that could explain the lack of Anatolian derived "farmer". The Corded Ware samples which have it picked it up then in central Europe,yes?

Still, as I asked above:

The authors say there was admixture between mainly WHG like people and a "steppic" element, yes?. However, isn't "steppic" element commonly understood to be part EHG/part CHG, perhaps on a level like 60/40?

Does that five with what the Admixture graph is showing?

As for the bolded part of your comment, maybe it's better to talk about LBK like EN for the Anatolian contingent. It's interesting to look at the Haak formulation based on d-stats in this context. The EN would then have arrived in the northeast later.
Also, it's an interesting reminder of how different modern populations are from the Corded Ware, etc. people.

 

[berun]

Interesting surprise, now the game is quite clear: the region was peopled first by WHG from some refugium and thereafter it was peopled by Siberians. We know about a WHG which was R1b 14000 years ago (Villabruna), and we know also that there was a lot of R1a HG in the Altai...

 

[arvistro]

another question
could white skin and blue eyes have originated in the Latvian mesolithic and further spread with corded ware & sintashta ?

I would not say in Latvian Mesolithic, but Dnieper-Donetsk should be something very similar to what we see in Latvia, and would make more sense.

 

[Tomenable]

and we know also that there was a lot of R1a HG in the Altai

The oldest sample of R1a, is Mesolithic Karelian EHG (6850-6000 BC; avg. 6425 BC).

The two Kitoi culture Lokomotiv samples are younger (6125-4025 BC; avg. 5075 BC).

There is around 1000 years of difference between those samples.

Mooder et. al. 2006 gives dates for Lokomotiv: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16323184

Fu et al. 2016 for Karelian EHG: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/301742169_The_genetic_history_of_Ice_Age_Europe

Karelian EHG is dated to 6850-6000 BC - http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/mesolithicdna.shtml

Two out of seven Kitoi culture samples from Lokomotiv were R1a, four were K, one was C3:

 

[MarkoZ]

I have to look at this again and think about it some more. The authors say there was admixture between mainly WHG like people and a "steppic" element, yes?. However, isn't "steppic" element commonly understood to be part EHG/part CHG, perhaps on a level like 60/40?

Does that five with what the Admixture graph is showing?

The tentative timeline for Latvia based on these samples looks like this:

Mesolithic: HGs nestled inbetween WHG and Scandinavian HGs
Middle Neolithic: EHG in the proper sense, complete with American & Siberian ancestry components and something Bedouin-like
Late Neolithic (Corded Ware): disappearance of the Siberian shades & Bedouin, CHG becomes main ancestral component. The remaining ancestry comes from WHG and the mysterious 'dark blue' component.

Eneolithic & EBA steppe come from varying mixtures of CHG and EHG, but they like the Karelians have those minor Eastern components as well as Bedouin. They also lack substantial admixture from the 'dark blue' component that peaks in Latvian Corded Ware and a single WHG.

I guess this would indicate that CHG bypassed much of the Pontic steppe and for some reason managed to arrive relatively undiluted in the Baltic region.

 

[Alan]

R1a in Karelia and Russia, R1b in Latvia and Russia.

Baltic Sea to Russia = Proto-Indo-European homeland.

Check also:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Baltic_Origins_of_Homer's_Epic_Tales

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Arctic_Home_in_the_Vedas

R1b in mesolithic Italy and Neolithic Spain. R1 in Paleolithic Siberia. Iberia to Italy to Siberia Proto_Indo European homeland confirmed.
Sarcasm off.

Contrary these two Haplogroups being so widespred confirm what I have been speculating and saying all along, that these Haplogroups outside of Indo European connection were already widespred at least by mesolithic/neolithic. And in fact this actually makes these two Haplogroups less specifically Indo European than previously and adds more support to Angelas theory that modern Northeast Europeans do not have allot of actual real Yamna ancestry but it is shared forager ancestry from the Baltics already by that time.

 

[Coriolan]

Latvian Corded Ware lacks Anatolian Farmer admixture, unlike German Corded Ware:

But wasn't that already the case of the Estonian Corded Ware sample (RISE1)?

 

[Alan]

This definitely confirms two of my long-held prejudices. The well-founded one that North-Eastern Europeans made the transition to agriculture by themselves, and the more contentious one that R1b1 became a Villabrunna-WHG marker in the European context.

Very unlikely, it actually looks more like Northeast Europeans adopted it from Farmers/herders groups by cultural exchange. However how else are we going to explain the 25-30% EEF in Northeast Europe today?

Edit. As I see in previous comments it could be from CHG.

 

[Tomenable]

We know about a WHG which was R1b 14000 years ago (Villabruna)

Villabruna R1b was a dead-end, just like that Lokomotiv R1a (that K* was also dead-end).

You look at peripheries (Villabruna, Lokomotiv) instead of at the centre (Eastern Europe).

However how else are we going to explain the 25-30% EEF in Northeast Europe today?

Early Bronze Age sample from Poland is already 25% Lengyel Neolithic (see my post above).

But he clusters with modern Balts, Ukrainians, Belarusians, Russians. Poles have more EEF.

 

[Alan]

So 3 out of 3 oldest samples of R1b are from Pre-Neolithic Europe.

Is there anyone who still believes in West Asian origin of R1b crap?

Moreover, I think R1b-V88 were descended from Villabruna WHG.

Meanwhile, R1b-M269 clade emerged in [North-]Eastern Europe.

How many samples mesolithic Europe alone do you have in comparison to the sample size in total even Neolithic, mesolithic, Bronze and Iron Age combined from West Asia? Exactly. Three if not four times the size.

Let alone South and Central Asia.

 

[Tomenable]

R1b in mesolithic Italy and Neolithic Spain.

And both of those samples are more closely related to African R1b-V88 than to modern Eurasian R1b-M269.

Neolithic Spanish sample was R1b-V88, and Italian hunter-gatherer was a branch ancestral to R1b-V88.

This is why I think that Neolithic Iberian with R1b-V88 was descended from Italian WHGs with R1b.

 

[arvistro]

Contrary these two Haplogroups being so widespred confirm what I have been speculating and saying all along, that these Haplogroups outside of Indo European connection were already widespred at least by mesolithic. And in fact this actually makes these two Haplogroups less specifically Indo European than previously and adds more support to Angelas theory that modern Northeast Europeans do not have allot of actual real Yamna ancestry but it is shared EHG ancestry from Foragers living in the Baltics already by that time.

I could bet that is actually Dnieper-Donetsk ancestry (Latvian neighborhood) that we have in NE Europe a lot. And if we find some nice R1b (ancestral to West Euros) samples in Dnieper-Donetsk, then PIE question becomes quite clear.

Having R1b in Baltics, makes R1b in Dnieper-Donetsk very likely..

 

[Tomenable]

Iberia to Italy to Siberia Proto_Indo European homeland confirmed.

Of course not all of R1b and not all of R1a is related to PIEs. For example R1b-V88 is not.

Related to PIEs are R1b-L23 and probably already R1b-M269, as well as R1a-M417 and probably already R1a-M198. Let me remind you that one of Corded Ware samples from Germany was confirmed as basal paragroup R1a-M198*. Caucasoid mummies from Xiaohe in the Tarim Basin were also confirmed as R1a-M198, but they have not been tested for R1a-M417. Supposedly they were tested negatively for R1a-Z93, which is surprising, but they could be some other M417(xZ93).

I'm waiting for autosomal DNA of Xiaohe R1a mummies to confirm that they were Yamna-related.

We have both R1a (Karelia, Samara) and R1b (Latvia, Samara) among the EHG and Khvalynsk.

We still don't have any ancient DNA samples from Ukraine, and nothing from Ukrainian Yamnaya.

In terms of ancient DNA Ukraine is a much worse "desert" than the Middle East.

 

[Alan]

another question
could white skin and blue eyes have originated in the Latvian mesolithic and further spread with corded ware & sintashta ?

If that was the case we wouldn't see light skin genes and blue eyes in Anatolian Neolithic samples (yes even Blue eyes were found). Even Iranian_Meso sample had the genes for Blue eyes. And CHG had light skin and some light eyes too. The only "ancestry" that actually connects all these is something CHG like, that has been found in those East European and Steppe foragers as well Anatolian_Farmers.

In comparison pure WHG samples were dark skinned, so was "pure" ANE sample from Siberia. EHG seems to be nothing more than WHG like with ANE like and some CHG like ancestry.

 

[berun]

The oldest sample of R1a, is Mesolithic Karelian EHG (6850-6000 BC; avg. 6425 BC).

The two Kitoi culture Lokomotiv samples are younger (6125-4025 BC; avg. 5075 BC).

There is around 1000 years of difference between those samples.

"The Lake Baikal of Siberia was home to two temporally distinct populations from Early Neolithic, EN (8000-6800 cal BP) to Late Neolithic-Early Bronze Age, LN-EBA (5800-4000 cal BP). The EN group was separated from the LN-EBA group by a 1000-year gap (hiatus)." All R1a are EN.

And sure you know about Comb-Ware culture and its epicenter...

 

[Tomenable]

And sure you know about Comb-Ware culture and its epicenter

There is no way that Comb-Ware culture was not N1c, and more specifically N1c-L708+ in Europe.

N1c-L708 entered Europe, crossing the Ural Mountains, no later than 7500 years ago (or 5500 BC).

The oldest currently known sample is 4500 years old, from the area of Smolensk (Chekunova 2014).

 

[berun]

You look at peripheries (Villabruna, Lokomotiv) instead of at the centre (Eastern Europe).

Italy and the Altai were refugia... you might look also at archaeology: to drive with an eye is not straight for much time.

 

[MarkoZ]

We have both R1a (Karelia, Samara) and R1b (Latvia, Samara) among the EHG and Khvalynsk.

Your defintion of 'EHG' seems to be getting more expansive. Why don't you read the paper again?