Why are men of the Dinaric Highlands so tall?

What does 23andme have to do with it? GIANT is an effort organized by the Broad Institute to collect and sort data from hundreds of academic studies about anthropometric traits from around the world.

https://gizmodo.com/23andme-is-selling-your-data-but-not-how-you-think-1794340474

You think people like this are interested in or even aware of the bizarre nationalistic worldviews of people who want to make "ethnic" based points about height, of all things?
Absolutely not, that would be career suicide, thanks to people like you. They can't even make simple factual statements out of fear of being labeled a Lactose Supremacist.
 
^^OK, I'll say it again. This has nothing to do with 23andme. These were hundreds and hundreds of independent academic researchers. If 23andme had provided data they'd be listed as contributors. Even if they did, for which you provide no proof, it would be one of many, many sources, so it's irrelevant. All you're doing is spreading misinformation because you don't like the conclusions.

"People like me" are people who try to look at every issue as objectively as possible. I don't operate out of any noxious agenda. Why the heck would I care which ethnic group is "tallest"? Of all the lame things to obsess about!

People like these researchers don't give a damn about the "political" or "ethnic" implications of these kinds of traits, maybe because they have more important traits, like intelligence and successful careers.

If you attack my credibility again be aware that it is insulting a moderator, and there are consequences.
 
Expredel, you have to remember that Angela isn't the die hard liberal you think she is :) nor are most researchers. A recent DNA study on the ancient Egyptians came out a few months ago concluding that they were Middle Eastern and close to Levantines and Arabs. It's not like they were forced to manipulate the data to suggest they were sub Saharan or fired due to "racism".
 
You know you're a real centrist and sane when you're attacked by both "alt-right" types and the loony, post-modernist left.

It's a great place to be intellectually and ethically. More people should migrate on over. :)
 
South Slavs from Dinaric Alps are tall because of high percentage of I2a-Din haplogroup.

I haplogroup produce tall people, Scandinavians are tall because they have a lot of I1 haplogroup.

Gheg Albanians from northern Albania often have Dinarid features but they are quite shorter than south Slavs especially than south Slavs from Dinaric Alps and especially than Herzegovians (I2a-Din in Herzegovina reaches the hidgest percentage in the world).

Ghegs have very little I2a-Din (they are 70%+ E-V13, J2b2 and R1b-BY611) and because of that they are shorter than south Slavs.
if that was the case then Bulgarians, Macedonians, with around 30% I2a should have been tall! They are not because tallnes is a North Albanian trait. When slavs are not mixed with North Albanian( Illyrian) blood are not tall. So it goes for Romanians, Moldovans, Ucrainians with high I2a. So do yourself a favour, get to the senses and thank Illyrian blood for tall genes.
 
Guys let's not transform this thread into a Balkan argument
 
if that was the case then Bulgarians, Macedonians, with around 30% I2a should have been tall! They are not because tallnes is a North Albanian trait. When slavs are not mixed with North Albanian( Illyrian) blood are not tall. So it goes for Romanians, Moldovans, Ucrainians with high I2a. So do yourself a favour, get to the senses and thank Illyrian blood for tall genes.

Albanians are not tall at all, Bulgarians are taller on average than Albanians.

Average height for some Balkan counties (males): Albania 174 cm , Bosnia and Herzegovina 183,9 cm , Croatia 180,4 cm , Serbia 182 cm , Bulgaria 175,2 cm , Montenegro 182,3 cm.

Source [video]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_average_human_height_worldwide[/video]


Bulgarians and Macedonians don't have 30% I2a.

I2a in Bulgaria is 20%, and in Macedonia is 23%, look at here [video]https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml[/video]
 
It's like someone can create a thread about anything from cereal mascots to cats and bang out of nowhere it becomes a thread about Albanians, Serbians, Bulgarians, Greeks, Illyrians, and Thracians.
 
^^OK, I'll say it again. This has nothing to do with 23andme. These were hundreds and hundreds of independent academic researchers. If 23andme had provided data they'd be listed as contributors. Even if they did, for which you provide no proof, it would be one of many, many sources, so it's irrelevant. All you're doing is spreading misinformation because you don't like the conclusions.
Height is 80-90% genetic so it's not that I dislike the conclusions, in fact, they admit they only discovered 29% of the genetic contribution. I assume several independent academic researchers got their data from 23andme.

"People like me" are people who try to look at every issue as objectively as possible. I don't operate out of any noxious agenda.
I'm very glad to hear that, striving to be objective is half the battle. :)

People like these researchers don't give a damn about the "political" or "ethnic" implications of these kinds of traits, maybe because they have more important traits, like intelligence and successful careers.
A successful career unfortunately requires keen political instincts.

If you attack my credibility again be aware that it is insulting a moderator, and there are consequences.
It's better to view it as constructive criticism rather than an insult. As a moderator you should try to make this an inclusive forum for everyone, diversity is a wonderful thing. Communists, fascists, SJWs, and neo-nazis are fascinating people which add a richness to everyday life, of course one has to be careful about giving them too much power, before you know it they try to get rid of anyone with a different opinion.
 
Albanians are not tall at all, Bulgarians are taller on average than Albanians.

Average height for some Balkan counties (males): Albania 174 cm , Bosnia and Herzegovina 183,9 cm , Croatia 180,4 cm , Serbia 182 cm , Bulgaria 175,2 cm , Montenegro 182,3 cm.


Source [video]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_average_human_height_worldwide[/video]

Bulgarians and Macedonians don't have 30%


Dude don't fabricate facts. There is a thread about Macedonians in this forum and their I haplogroup is 32%. Around that is also Bulgaria. As you may already know Macedonians are Bulgarians ethnically. And they are not tall. Geg Albanians are in average 10 cm taller than south Albanians. Lands where tall slavs live now were inhabited by Geg Albanians before slavs took it over. In Bulgaria where there were not Geg people are of average hight.
 
I think modern food production and consumption of meat laced with hormones and antibiotics gave recent generations good few inches in extra growth. It should be reversed in coming generations, when people demand organic food more and more.

I'm not sure if that would decrease height. My husbands paternal family are all well over 6' and came from farming, with both vegetable and meat production. His maternal family all well under 6' with the women around 5'. My husband is tall, and my sons are also. My big thing was home cooking with very little added salt, only milk, water and orange juice to drink, olive oil over other types of added oil. My boys would not eat vegetables but loved salads.

Another observation I made when my sons were playing sports, mother's would take turns preparing meals for the Teams on game days. I always noticed how the biggest and strongest players ALL ate salad, the smaller boys did not. Whether that means something, I don't know.
 
I doubt that this has anything to do with haplogroup I. Y-DNA does influence height, but variations between haplogroups amount to a difference of only 1 or 2 cm according to the only study on the subject.

I am not even sure that all haplogroup I is linked to increased height. Personally, among the Belgian people I know who have had their Y-DNA tested, R1b people are generally taller than other haplogroups, including I1 and I2. That may also explain why Dutch, Danish and Norwegian people (who have proportionally more R1b) are taller than Finnish and Swedish people (higher I1), despite very similar autosomal DNA. Here are some stats on male height to corroborate that.

Country% of R1b% of I1+I2Male height
Netherlands49%23%1.838
Denmark33%39.5%1.826
Norway32%35%1.824
Sweden21%40.5%1.779
Finland3.5%28.5%1.789


There is an equal lack of correlation with haplogroup I in the Dinaric Alps. Montenegrins and Bosniaks are the tallest (1.832 and 1.839) but have very different percentages of haplogroup I (37% vs 57.5%). Croatians (1.805) are 3 cm shorter than Montenegrins but have higher levels of hg I (43%).

Whatever it is, I would assume it could be a genetic similarity to North European. When I was travelling in Europe I met a 7' Dane and a 7' Dutchman.
 
What's the genetic comparison between the dinaric Highlands and North European?
 
Maybe it's R1a as countries with the most R1b i.e. Ireland, Scotland aren't known for extreme heights (unless areas probably settled by Vikings)
 
It's like someone can create a thread about anything from cereal mascots to cats and bang out of nowhere it becomes a thread about Albanians, Serbians, Bulgarians, Greeks, Illyrians, and Thracians.




The threads in which these arguments are happening are almost always directly related to these people's and territories in which they live. The Dinaric Alps span from Slovenia at their most north to Kosovo and Albania and their south most. If the topic of the thread is why people of these alps are so tall then its not mysterious or irrelevant that people discuss the people that live in those territories (and their origins).


The largest contribution to the constant balkan arguments can simply be boiled down to this: Misinformation.


There are two ways that misinformation propagates, unintentionally and intentionally.


The unintentional way is the most likely, most people have been brought up with certain information and their material socioeconomic lives are invested
in the picture of their neighbors' and their relations to them. They've been taught in school and media that this is how it is, and when they
read something counter to this it sounds outright false and irritating. I reiterate that most of the spread of misinformation is done like
this. Like with a virus that is spread unintentionally, people are just standing by what they think to be true.


The second way is intentional propagation of disinformation for the purpose of achieving political ambitions. This is malicious, cynical and depressing
but these people exist and not only do they exist but they are extremely active, and forums like these are perfect niches for them to
disseminate their disinformation.


Here I'll show you one example:


Boris Malagurski is a Serbian filmmaker with ties to the Serbian government. He makes many "documentaries"
about Kosovo and Albanians. He is currently lobbying to US congress against Kosovo and many other such things.
Here is just some of the stuff he tweets out:

hsY7vIh.png





He openly and intentionally spreads misinformation that Albanians came from the Caucausus during the ottoman empire. This would not be a big
deal if it was just one crazy guy, but the Serbian and Yugoslavian state also spread this misinformation for many years and still does. There
are still school textbooks in Serbia to this day that teach Serbian students that their Albanian neighbours came here with the turks.


Bear in mind that Boris Malagurksi has many documentaries on youtube with hundreds of thousands of views. When I see misinformation
like this being spread I can either choose to ignore it and risk the chance that people who know nothing about the balkans
believe it entirely (and maybe even unintentionally spread it) or I can counter it.


This is almost always how the balkan arguments begin.

Yesterday in the I2a-din thread it managed to veer into discussions about world war 1 politicians. While it may appear irrelevant
to outsiders there is most of the time a reason that these discussions are veering in these directions.

For example, a map about populations living in certain territories is produced as evidence that there are no Albanians/Serbians
in a given place. If its not made clear that this map was made intentionally by people who had clearly recorded political ambitions
of cleaning territories of minorities then the map appears more objective than it really is.


In this situation I don't blame the mods, they are doing their best and put a lot of work in to trying to be impartial and people
here can come across as not grateful of this.

As a point on how ideology can warp the perspective of objectivity and what qualifies as "evidence" here is a screenshot of how many
"flat earth proof" results show up on Youtube.

If you can convince an ever growing community that the earth is flat then imagine how easy it is to distort such obscure, complex and nuanced
subjects such as migrations, populations, nations, histories etc.

Ka9VMrT.png


Also, be wary of sock puppet accounts that jump into these threads. Quite manageable with VPN's and proxy to make a 2day old fake account to muddy waters in
threads like these.
 
The threads in which these arguments are happening are almost always directly related to these people's and territories in which they live. The Dinaric Alps span from Slovenia at their most north to Kosovo and Albania and their south most. If the topic of the thread is why people of these alps are so tall then its not mysterious or irrelevant that people discuss the people that live in those territories (and their origins).


The largest contribution to the constant balkan arguments can simply be boiled down to this: Misinformation.


There are two ways that misinformation propagates, unintentionally and intentionally.


The unintentional way is the most likely, most people have been brought up with certain information and their material socioeconomic lives are invested
in the picture of their neighbors' and their relations to them. They've been taught in school and media that this is how it is, and when they
read something counter to this it sounds outright false and irritating. I reiterate that most of the spread of misinformation is done like
this. Like with a virus that is spread unintentionally, people are just standing by what they think to be true.


The second way is intentional propagation of disinformation for the purpose of achieving political ambitions. This is malicious, cynical and depressing
but these people exist and not only do they exist but they are extremely active, and forums like these are perfect niches for them to
disseminate their disinformation.


Here I'll show you one example:


Boris Malagurski is a Serbian filmmaker with ties to the Serbian government. He makes many "documentaries"
about Kosovo and Albanians. He is currently lobbying to US congress against Kosovo and many other such things.
Here is just some of the stuff he tweets out:

hsY7vIh.png





He openly and intentionally spreads misinformation that Albanians came from the Caucausus during the ottoman empire. This would not be a big
deal if it was just one crazy guy, but the Serbian and Yugoslavian state also spread this misinformation for many years and still does. There
are still school textbooks in Serbia to this day that teach Serbian students that their Albanian neighbours came here with the turks.


Bear in mind that Boris Malagurksi has many documentaries on youtube with hundreds of thousands of views. When I see misinformation
like this being spread I can either choose to ignore it and risk the chance that people who know nothing about the balkans
believe it entirely (and maybe even unintentionally spread it) or I can counter it.


This is almost always how the balkan arguments begin.

Yesterday in the I2a-din thread it managed to veer into discussions about world war 1 politicians. While it may appear irrelevant
to outsiders there is most of the time a reason that these discussions are veering in these directions.

For example, a map about populations living in certain territories is produced as evidence that there are no Albanians/Serbians
in a given place. If its not made clear that this map was made intentionally by people who had clearly recorded political ambitions
of cleaning territories of minorities then the map appears more objective than it really is.


In this situation I don't blame the mods, they are doing their best and put a lot of work in to trying to be impartial and people
here can come across as not grateful of this.

As a point on how ideology can warp the perspective of objectivity and what qualifies as "evidence" here is a screenshot of how many
"flat earth proof" results show up on Youtube.

If you can convince an ever growing community that the earth is flat then imagine how easy it is to distort such obscure, complex and nuanced
subjects such as migrations, populations, nations, histories etc.

Ka9VMrT.png


Also, be wary of sock puppet accounts that jump into these threads. Quite manageable with VPN's and proxy to make a 2day old fake account to muddy waters in
threads like these.

I agree completely, bro.
 
:petrified: @Johane

Sooooooo......ahem. Ok. Condensing your post, the main culprit behind these massive 50 page Balkan threads boils down to a) those who were raised by the propaganda machine and cannot fathom that they've been lied to all their lives or b) senseless t-rolls who spread misinformation for their own entertainment.

I can sympathize with the former, as I too would call someone out as a crock pot with a tinfoil hat if I'm told that FDR never became president and the guy delivering the fire side chats was a stunt double resembling him, even if it was true (but I'm sane enough to accept if I'm given evidence and not "evidence").

I just find it creepy, eerie, and disturbing that many of these "t-rolls" are simply victims of government corruption and lies; not to mention that these propaganda could be why they exist in the first place.


thanks for the clarification
 
My opinion is that the hight is at least for a few generations genetically determinated. People of the Dinaric highlands were compared to the plains or other regions more isolated. Under these terms a genetic drift is possible, as a result we could have either smaller or taller than the average. In this case it's somehow taller, at least according to statistics. Sheep are also a good protein source: meat, milk and cheese. People in the highlands didn't own much but they had a stabile nutrition rich in protein for several generations. That would be a good basis for a bigger stature. In the plains people were more often confronted with wars where many young, tall and strong men were recruited and ended their lives without offspring. I think the diet in the plains were also proportionally higher in wheat which is a good energy source but lacks proteins which build our body. These are some possible factors if I'm not mistaken, sure I'm an amateur.
 
the high statures (and low ones) in Europe, spite local and chronologically limited microevolutions, are rather stable along history and have a strong genetic heritage cause - other causes acted but the big scheme is still the same after some economic-way-of-life reajustments - other mountains people in other Europe places tend to be lower statured than neighbouring plain dwellers so? the outbreeding habits (exogamy) can play a role but it seems that crossings, after some generations, loose their first positive imput, and ask for perpetual new crossings - in the case of western Balkans, we could even said that in recent history the pops were rather endogamic - the polygamy and warlike cultures in past favouring stronger males could have played a role in increasing statures but why here and not there? it requires deep surveys on past pops -
no simplistic lone explanation I suppose -
&: high stature is not sign of health; a type can go on bigger and bigger for this kind of selection, and favouring strength, select bad genes concerning long life and resistance to some illnesses? We know the biggest and fleshiest ones are not always the more resistant...
selection is blind: in some environment, to be able to run a long time when hunting some species or running away could be an advantage but in another environment with stronger and faster predators hability to run fast to escape could be better...
 
Johane, Dibran

The funny thing is that Malaguraki's bull crap can be revealed with a simple google search....here he's blaming Albanians for destroying Serbian churches
https://mobile.twitter.com/malagurski/status/900089906550145029

But after searching by image, we get...

http://www.news.com.au/travel/trave...q/news-story/347cddeabb8d41bc22dc6c887e9dbacb

And after reading his tweets, he comes off as arrogant on top of his lack of respect towards Albanians or whomever else he despises.

I'm not Albanian, but I sympathize bc it must be rough to have someone label your family as the villains.
 

This thread has been viewed 64657 times.

Back
Top