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Thread: The genomic history of southeastern Europe-Mathiesen et al

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    3 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    How very disappointing. I've wondered for years why the obvious contradictions and gaps weren't more vigorously investigated, and why alternate theories weren't more discussed. Follow the money perhaps, and it may be true today as well. It doesn't mean large parts of the kurgan hypothesis aren't correct, but it does explain why the more romanticized, "value-added" portions are still in circulation despite more recent research showing a lot of it is nonsense.
    Yeah, and if a study reveals that the steppe people were short, intellectually slow, and dark, it's under the rug in most stormfront/"anthro" circles. It's slightly different from setting books on fire.
    mmmmmmmmmm doughnuuuuutz

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    I knew nothing of this Pearson person and his funding of the JIES. Are you sure about it?
    Yes, unfortunately I'm sure about it. He founded it, funded it and actively published until the mid-1990s. One of the major contributors used to be Franz Altheim from the SS-Ahnenerbe

    W. H. Tucker, author of The Funding of Scientific Racism, has investigated these things in some detail. Pearson's definitely a charming fellow:

    RogerPearson, for example, one of Pioneer's major recipients, waspreviously the pseudonymous publisher and editor of a journaldedicated to the view that World War II had been an attempt by theJews to bring about the complete "extermination or genocide of theGerman nation." After becoming a Pioneer grantee, Pearson's first two publications-extolling the importance of Nordic racial purityand praising the virtue of killing "the weaklings and misshapen"-appeared on the front page of White Power: The Revolutionary Voiceof National Socialism just under the large swastika serving as theperiodical's logo.
    Another journal spearheaded & founded by Pearson is Mankind Quartery which is responsible for much of the research concerning race and intelligence that's being disseminated lately (Lynn & others). This one's being cited regularly on various anthrofora and blogs.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    Yes, unfortunately I'm sure about it. He founded it, funded it and actively published until the mid-1990s. One of the major contributors used to be Franz Altheim from the SS-Ahnenerbe

    W. H. Tucker, author of The Funding of Scientific Racism, has investigated these things in some detail. Pearson's definitely a charming fellow:



    Another journal spearheaded & founded by Pearson is Mankind Quartery which is responsible for much of the research concerning race and intelligence that's being disseminated lately (Lynn & others). This one's being cited regularly on various anthrofora and blogs.
    Good Lord! More fool I for not knowing any of this. As an excuse I certainly never saw any discussion of this in the respectable blogs. Perhaps the point was to keep this quiet. Even here we're not popular with some of our fellow members for discussing this. Too bad. Let the light in. At the very least, in other settings this would be called impeaching the witness. Any "facts" transmitted would be subject to the highest scrutiny.


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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    The Basal K is linked with CHG, but K1 is linked with mesolithic Greece, Boncuklu and Tepecik, that is Y-DNA G2a.
    Do we have the autosomal of the Iron Gates population? Of course the neolithic does, but also the mesolithic should contain EEF.

    I also don't understand how U5 spread over both EHG and WHG.
    It seems to me that R1 was linked with mtDNA C, but they soon took over U5, which I suspect was already all over Europe before R1 arrived there.
    R1 were wanderers who prefered the local U5.
    I'm still plowing through the Supplement. :) Take a look at Supp. Table 2. It's the d-stats, and they've helpfully explained the results for the less numerate.

    "
    Ukraine Mesolithic, Neolithic and Iron_Gates_HG could be admixed relative to WHG and EHG. Iron_Gates_HG shares ancestry with Anatolian Neolithic.

    Trypillia has more HG ancestry than Balkans Chalcolithic and no Steppe ancestry
    Varna has similar HG ancestry to Balkans Chalcolithic and no Steppe ancestry

    Varna and Trypillia outliers, and possibly Balkans Chalcolithic outlier (1 sample each) have Steppe ancestry

    The Anatolia Neolithic to Anatolia Bronze Age shift is driven by changes in CHG and Iran Neolithc ancestry not by migration from Steppe populations that have EHG ancestry

    An increase in CHG/Iran_N in Chalcolithic Anatolia is mirrored by a similar shift in the Balkans Chalcolithic, but not in Central Europe or Iberia Middle Neolithic

    So, as I speculated, was there already a movement of CHG/Iran Neo into southeastern Europe in the Chalcolithic?

    All I can say is WOW! This is the real Behemoth paper. I guess there's going to be even more goodies in the upcoming Lazaridis paper.
    Last edited by Angela; 15-05-17 at 23:56.

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    [QUOTE=bicicleur;508424][QUOTE=MOESAN;508384]
    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    OK, so.

    This is very interesting and clarifies a lot of things, but it's nothing earth shattering to me:


    • We have an early group of Levantine/South Anatolian farmers in the Peloponnese. This is interesting, but the fact that there were more than one population of farmers moving into the Balkan peninsula isn't too surprising. It would be more strange if there was only a single source. I wish we had their Y-HGs, but we can probably make a good guess with this



    Upstream E-V13 was also in cardial ware Avelaner Cave, no need for different waves to explain that.
    Upstream E-V13 could have been in any wave, after all the E-V13 founder was 1 single man.
    If you read well one of my posts I wrote the Cardial people were physically partly distinct from the most of Balkans farmers: so yes some differences in proportions of lineages could explain this - but we need more Y-DNA from diverse cardial places (and rather before too much crossings with local WHG's) to assert this - I agree with you some Y-E1b could have been found in more than a group but I believe the proportions (%) between Y-G2a and Y-E1b were not the same ; I would bet very much more E1b among PPNB - cardial people having taken maritime+littoral routes westwards could have implied some mix of PPNB and farmers more anatolianlike spite staying rather anatolianlike -

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    what is steppe ancestry as opposed to EHG ancestry ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    what is steppe ancestry as opposed to EHG ancestry ?
    EHG + CHG/Iran Ch. like is how it's commonly been defined I think.

    Read the tables, that's where they lay out all the proof for their conclusions

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I-M223&dates.jpgI have put I-M223 I2a2a on a map you may have a better perspective with dates Moesan
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    in my quest towards BB's and towards a link with Y-I2a2 I was longing for a place between far West and far North-East, not too far from Vucedol and close to Moldavia and Tripolje, and I thought in the Carpathians: they are not too far from Balkans (at this date I did not know about I2a2 in Balkans) and we find some old I2a2 in Ukraina too - sure it proves nothing about BB's and some Y-I2a2 lineages have surely an other story,but my bet concerning geography was not to bad it seems -

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    EHG + CHG/Iran Ch. like is how it's commonly been defined I think.

    Read the tables, that's where they lay out all the proof for their conclusions
    Some of the modelers insist it's pure CHG, which would have to have been hiding out for thousands of years somewhere totally unchanged. Patterson, at least, seems to have the patience to occasionally sift through all those nonsense posts on Eurogenes. I would bet he's seen the discussions, and yet he's one of the authors of this paper and the paper very clearly says:

    "
    The Anatolia Neolithic to Anatolia Bronze Age shift is driven by changes in CHG and Iran Neolithc ancestry not by migration from Steppe populations that have EHG ancestry


    An increase in CHG/Iran_N in Chalcolithic Anatolia is mirrored by a similar shift in the Balkans Chalcolithic, but not in Central Europe or Iberia Middle Neolithic"


    I would place more faith in the people who created some of these algorithms than people who just try to use them, even the ones who are well intentioned. Either way, it's a highly "Basal Eurasian" component.

    The Lazaridis paper is the one which formulated it as a mix of EHG and something like Iran Chalcolithic, so perhaps the new Lazaridis paper will clarify matters.
    Last edited by Angela; 16-05-17 at 03:50.

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    Check out pearsons Wikipedia page...what's with the stupid robe he's wearing in the photo...is he some member of a top secret English kkk division? Lolz.
    Stupid skinhead.

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    Modern Anatolia is more than just EEF + Iran_Neo/CHG though. A lot of upheavals and changes happened to the Mid East in the later Bronze Age, perhaps with the entrance of the Hittites. Suddenly R1b appears, and no, it's not from central asian Turks.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I'm still plowing through the Supplement. :) Take a look at Supp. Table 2. It's the d-stats, and they've helpfully explained the results for the less numerate.

    "
    An increase in CHG/Iran_N in Chalcolithic Anatolia is mirrored by a similar shift in the Balkans Chalcolithic, but not in Central Europe or Iberia Middle Neolithic

    So, as I speculated, was there already a movement of CHG/Iran Neo into southeastern Europe in the Chalcolithic?

    All I can say is WOW! This is the real Behemoth paper. I guess there's going to be even more goodies in the upcoming Lazaridis paper.
    I found a model I did few months ago when deciphering composition of Hungarian BA. I couldn't get it right without lots of Caucasian admixture. Here is one with 15% of Chalcolithic Armenian. Also it works well with Anatolian Chalcolithic, because they were quite similar.
    So, first 3 are the source with proportions at the top, 4th is the composed model, and 5th actual Hungarian Bronze to compare how close I got. Almost a perfect match!

    0.5 0.35 0.15
    M325047 KO1 M536324 I1658 Modeled
    Hungarian, h-g 7.7 kya NE7 Hungary Armenia EBA BA Hungary BR1 Hungary
    Run time 9.43 Population Run time 8.22 Run time Population
    S-Indian 0 S-Indian 0 S-Indian 0.27 S-Indian 0.0405 S-Indian 0
    Baloch 0 Baloch 0 Baloch 25.53 Baloch 3.8295 Baloch 3.15
    Caucasian 0 Caucasian 19.04 Caucasian 56.75 Caucasian 15.1765 Caucasian 14.73
    NE-Euro 80.37 NE-Euro 16.69 NE-Euro 4.79 NE-Euro 46.745 NE-Euro 46.18
    SE-Asian 0 SE-Asian 0 SE-Asian 0 SE-Asian 0 SE-Asian 0.2
    Siberian 0 Siberian 0 Siberian 0 Siberian 0 Siberian -
    NE-Asian 0 NE-Asian 0 NE-Asian 0 NE-Asian 0 NE-Asian -
    Papuan 0.53 Papuan 0 Papuan 0 Papuan 0.265 Papuan 0.18
    American 0 American 0 American 0 American 0 American -
    Beringian 0 Beringian 0 Beringian 0 Beringian 0 Beringian -
    Mediterranean 18.59 Mediterranean 56.18 Mediterranean 5.88 Mediterranean 29.84 Mediterranean 31.73
    SW-Asian 0 SW-Asian 7.96 SW-Asian 6.45 SW-Asian 3.7535 SW-Asian 3.33
    San 0 San 0 San 0 San 0 San -
    E-African 0 E-African 0 E-African 0 E-African 0 E-African -
    Pygmy 0 Pygmy 0 Pygmy 0 Pygmy 0 Pygmy -
    W-African 0.5 W-African 0.11 W-African 0.33 W-African 0.338 W-African 0.48
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1981 View Post
    Modern Anatolia is more than just EEF + Iran_Neo/CHG though. A lot of upheavals and changes happened to the Mid East in the later Bronze Age, perhaps with the entrance of the Hittites. Suddenly R1b appears, and no, it's not from central asian Turks.
    First of all we're not talking about modern Anatolia, we're talking about Copper and Bronze Age Anatolia.

    Second of all, the only question is do they have the WHG/EHG which is important for the steppe hypothesis? The three published so far don't, correct.? They're from an upcoming Lazaridis paper. Probably there will be more in that paper and others coming out.

    I don't know where they'll be from or what they'll show and neither do you. So, we'll have to wait and see. Whatever they show, they show.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I found a model I did few months ago when deciphering composition of Hungarian BA. I couldn't get it right without lots of Caucasian admixture. Here is one with 15% of Chalcolithic Armenian. Also it works well with Anatolian Chalcolithic, because they were quite similar.
    So, first 3 are the source with proportions at the top, 4th is the composed model, and 5th actual Hungarian Bronze to compare how close I got. Almost a perfect match!

    0.5 0.35 0.15
    M325047 KO1 M536324 I1658 Modeled
    Hungarian, h-g 7.7 kya NE7 Hungary Armenia EBA BA Hungary BR1 Hungary
    Run time 9.43 Population Run time 8.22 Run time Population
    S-Indian 0 S-Indian 0 S-Indian 0.27 S-Indian 0.0405 S-Indian 0
    Baloch 0 Baloch 0 Baloch 25.53 Baloch 3.8295 Baloch 3.15
    Caucasian 0 Caucasian 19.04 Caucasian 56.75 Caucasian 15.1765 Caucasian 14.73
    NE-Euro 80.37 NE-Euro 16.69 NE-Euro 4.79 NE-Euro 46.745 NE-Euro 46.18
    SE-Asian 0 SE-Asian 0 SE-Asian 0 SE-Asian 0 SE-Asian 0.2
    Siberian 0 Siberian 0 Siberian 0 Siberian 0 Siberian -
    NE-Asian 0 NE-Asian 0 NE-Asian 0 NE-Asian 0 NE-Asian -
    Papuan 0.53 Papuan 0 Papuan 0 Papuan 0.265 Papuan 0.18
    American 0 American 0 American 0 American 0 American -
    Beringian 0 Beringian 0 Beringian 0 Beringian 0 Beringian -
    Mediterranean 18.59 Mediterranean 56.18 Mediterranean 5.88 Mediterranean 29.84 Mediterranean 31.73
    SW-Asian 0 SW-Asian 7.96 SW-Asian 6.45 SW-Asian 3.7535 SW-Asian 3.33
    San 0 San 0 San 0 San 0 San -
    E-African 0 E-African 0 E-African 0 E-African 0 E-African -
    Pygmy 0 Pygmy 0 Pygmy 0 Pygmy 0 Pygmy -
    W-African 0.5 W-African 0.11 W-African 0.33 W-African 0.338 W-African 0.48
    So, contrary to what they say, it could have reached up to Hungary, yes, which counts as Central Europe, in my book? Great work, Le Brok! Could that have something to do with the J2a in Sopot and later in BR2?

    It's Hungary Bronze Age which seems to be correlated with Southern Europe.

    Wait a minute. Wouldn't that mean Hungary Bronze Age has no real "steppe"?

    Ed.There's steppe in Balkans Bronze Age, although it's sporadic, late, and much less than in northern Europe, so it should show up in Bronze Age Hungary? Anyone have d-stats for those samples?
    Last edited by Angela; 16-05-17 at 17:53.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    So, contrary to what they say, it could have reached up to Hungary, yes, which counts as Central Europe, in my book? Great work, Le Brok! Could that have something to do with the J2a in Sopot and later in BR2?
    I can't explain it by any other way than a mass migration/invasion from Anatolia/Armenia. The amount of Caucasian needed to explain is huge, and it is in short supply in Yamnaya/Steppe.

    It's Hungary Bronze Age which seems to be correlated with Southern Europe.
    I would say so, because CW and Unetice is very different and contain a lot of Steppe/Yamnaya.

    Wait a minute. Wouldn't that mean Hungary Bronze Age has no real "steppe"?
    I wish I knew for sure that if they say Steppe they know it is Steppe, and not just CHG admixture. Because if it is the latter then it could easily came from Anatolia to Balkans and not through the Steppe cultures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I can't explain it by any other way than a mass migration/invasion from Anatolia/Armenia. The amount of Caucasian needed to explain is huge, and it is in short supply in Yamnaya/Steppe.

    I would say so, because CW and Unetice is very different and contain a lot of Steppe/Yamnaya.

    I wish I knew for sure that if they say Steppe they know it is Steppe, and not just CHG admixture. Because if it is the latter then it could easily came from Anatolia to Balkans and not through the Steppe cultures.
    Perhaps some also to steppe cultures early on, through the Balkans? At least some of it ? Is that even possible?

    I can't think; I'm too tired. Like Scarlet O'Hara in Gone With The Wind, I'll think about it tomorrow. : )

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    I know everyone's like a deer in the headlights right now, but the Sredny Stog and the Yamnaya Ukraine genomes are a big deal.

    I must give myself a little credit as I've been saying this all along, but look at the autosomes of late Sredny Stog and Yamnaya Ukraine. We're seeing the genesis of Corded Ware and Late Bronze Age Steppe. It's not just my theory anymore.

    We all know that Corded Ware and the LBA Steppe have EEF that wasn't in Yamnaya. It wasn't obvious where and when this EEF spread throughout the steppe. We only saw it in Corded Ware and then it suddenly covered the entire steppe at the end of the bronze age. Now we can see the origin, which is augmented by what looks like proto-corded ware pottery in the latter stages of Sredny Stog.

    Bam

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I can't explain it by any other way than a mass migration/invasion from Anatolia/Armenia. The amount of Caucasian needed to explain is huge, and it is in short supply in Yamnaya/Steppe.

    I would say so, because CW and Unetice is very different and contain a lot of Steppe/Yamnaya.

    I wish I knew for sure that if they say Steppe they know it is Steppe, and not just CHG admixture. Because if it is the latter then it could easily came from Anatolia to Balkans and not through the Steppe cultures.
    Well we know that CHG/Iranian_Neo moved into Anatolia in the Chalcolithic from the Genetic Structure of The First Farmers Paper, so it's not a huge stretch to see this in the Balkans.

    The SE Europe paper is using Yamnaya for steppe. The orange in the admixture plot is in-fact steppe.

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    How bout Ust-Ishim being listed as R1a1a1b?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Perhaps some also to steppe cultures early on, through the Balkans? At least some of it ? Is that even possible?

    I can't think; I'm too tired. Like Scarlet O'Hara in Gone With The Wind, I'll think about it tomorrow. : )
    My model doesn't need it to explain, but I doubt it is a complete model, and I would be surprised if there was no steppe admixture in Balkans, even only through mixing Yamnaya with CT culture. I'm almost sure the researches included all CHG which came through Balkans also as Steppe admixture.
    I wish I could check all the samples they introduced now in GedMatch admixtures.


    Sorry, I just notice a mistake. This above admixture modeling is for RB2. Which is late Bronze Age in Hungary. RB1 is with low caucasian and looks like 40/60 EEF/WHG, no baloch no steppe. Later we see some Baloch showing and jump in Caucasian, though all of them are fairly similar, with Anatolian/Armenia influance. The big change came in Iron Age with invasion from NE, the steppe arrived. Baloch and NE Euro like in CW/Unetice like, and lower Med. Thracians?

    F999933 BR2, J-M67 M681225 BR1 M631469 RISE349 M974598 RISE374 and 373 F999929 IR1, N-M231
    Hungary, Ludas-Varjú-dűlő, 3.3kya EBA Hungary 1,980–2,190 BC Hungary MBA [2034-1748 BC] T2b3 - Maros Hungary [1866-1619 BC] T2 G2a-P287>P15>PF3178 IR Hungary 900 BC
    Run time 15.13 Run time 10.55 Run time 3.16 Run time 5.26 Run time 6.96
    S-Indian - S-Indian - S-Indian - S-Indian - S-Indian -
    Baloch 3.15 Baloch - Baloch 5.64 Baloch - Baloch 14.83
    Caucasian 14.73 Caucasian 5.45 Caucasian 13.81 Caucasian 18.58 Caucasian 15.12
    NE-Euro 46.18 NE-Euro 56.15 NE-Euro 38.22 NE-Euro 39.65 NE-Euro 43.91
    SE-Asian 0.2 SE-Asian 0.49 SE-Asian - SE-Asian - SE-Asian -
    Siberian - Siberian - Siberian - Siberian - Siberian 2.97
    NE-Asian - NE-Asian - NE-Asian - NE-Asian - NE-Asian -
    Papuan 0.18 Papuan - Papuan - Papuan - Papuan -
    American - American - American - American - American 2.03
    Beringian - Beringian - Beringian - Beringian - Beringian -
    Mediterranean 31.73 Mediterranean 34.48 Mediterranean 34.63 Mediterranean 40.09 Mediterranean 21.14
    SW-Asian 3.33 SW-Asian 3.1 SW-Asian 3.94 SW-Asian 0.98 SW-Asian -
    San - San - San - San 0.17 San -
    E-African - E-African - E-African - E-African - E-African -
    Pygmy - Pygmy - Pygmy - Pygmy 0.15 Pygmy -
    W-African 0.48 W-African 0.3 W-African 3.75 W-African 0.39 W-African -

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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    Dereivka is a Sredy Stog site. We have a bunch of Y DNA, I'm only seeing one autosomal sample in the admixture runs though, from a late period.
    Then their dating is wrong because they mention 5500-4800 BCE for Dereivka and Sredny Stog is 4500-3500 BCE. Any none of the three Dereivka samples have anything to do with Yamna. They belong to R1*, R1b1* and I2a2. None of these could be ancestral for R1b1a1a2a (L23). In fact there wasn't even any P297 in Neolithic Ukraine like those found in Mesolithic Latvia. It's just a coincidence that the Mesolithic/Neolithic Ukrainian also possessed some R1b lineages. But in fact Yamna R1b-L23 or Z2103 is close to the African R1b-V88 than to R1* or R1b1*. At least both L23 and V88 descend from L754.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    "
    The Anatolia Neolithic to Anatolia Bronze Age shift is driven by changes in CHG and Iran Neolithc ancestry not by migration from Steppe populations that have EHG ancestry
    That's easily explained by the Kura-Araxes expansion. Like the Yamna expansion, people from the Kura-Araxes culture left the boundaries of the actual culture and spread in every direction, IMO going as far west as the Balkans and Crete (Minoan civilisation) and as far east as Pakistan (Harappa civilization). Those migrations increased CHG and brought with them mostly J2a1 lineages and to a lower extent also G2a1 (L293), J1a2a (Z1828) and T1a-P77. All those lineages are found in Crete, by the way. There might have been some L1a and some old R1b subclades too, but they were minor lineages, just like in the South Caucasus today.

    The Hungarian BA J2a1 from the Kyatice culture belongs to the Y11202 clade, which is found chiefly in the Caucasus. Therefore I believe that he also descended from the Kura-Araxes expansion.

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    [QUOTE=MOESAN;508674][QUOTE=bicicleur;508424]
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post

    If you read well one of my posts I wrote the Cardial people were physically partly distinct from the most of Balkans farmers: so yes some differences in proportions of lineages could explain this - but we need more Y-DNA from diverse cardial places (and rather before too much crossings with local WHG's) to assert this - I agree with you some Y-E1b could have been found in more than a group but I believe the proportions (%) between Y-G2a and Y-E1b were not the same ; I would bet very much more E1b among PPNB - cardial people having taken maritime+littoral routes westwards could have implied some mix of PPNB and farmers more anatolianlike spite staying rather anatolianlike -
    Could you elaborate more on the physical distinction? I'd appreciate that. Thanks.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    I know everyone's like a deer in the headlights right now, but the Sredny Stog and the Yamnaya Ukraine genomes are a big deal.

    I must give myself a little credit as I've been saying this all along, but look at the autosomes of late Sredny Stog and Yamnaya Ukraine. We're seeing the genesis of Corded Ware and Late Bronze Age Steppe. It's not just my theory anymore.

    We all know that Corded Ware and the LBA Steppe have EEF that wasn't in Yamnaya. It wasn't obvious where and when this EEF spread throughout the steppe. We only saw it in Corded Ware and then it suddenly covered the entire steppe at the end of the bronze age. Now we can see the origin, which is augmented by what looks like proto-corded ware pottery in the latter stages of Sredny Stog.

    Bam
    Yes you are right. Now I also see that Vovnigi and Derevka are the most likely candidates for PIE.
    These people from the Vovnigi and the Dereivka probably ancestors of all the existing Indo-European peoples.


    CW and BB (geneticly and partly culturaly in BB case) probably come from there. And even the historical Hittites, which some researchers derive from the Sredniy Stog. And languages we are speaking now, began to disintegrate precisely there and in those times. The rest of the vast territory of possible PIE languages ​​(as the eastern yamnaya), did not have offspring of historical IE speakers. Therefore, we can not say in what language they spoke, although their cultural characteristics were identical to IE.

    The source of these burials Vovnigi and Derevka is somewhere on the Popovo-Zvejnieki mesolite line.
    Apparently, there began process of absorbing EEF genes, which are presented in CW.
    Probably, they took women as trophies during the devastating raids on the neighboring Tripolye and the killing of their population.

    Therefore, the people of Corded Ware:
    -the presence of EEF genes
    -pronounced horizontal profiling of the face in the upper part (more pronounced than in their Mesolithic ancestors)
    -prevalence farmer-Middle Eastern mtDNa in all descendants of CW in Europe.
    - burial form as "tower of silence" among the Iranians, has its roots in the Tripolye and possibly introduced by the Trypollian women in Indo-European culture (although, it could be just borrowing)

    Also worth noting, from here probably there is an old confusion among paleoanthroologists, who indicates that people of CWC are often metrically similar to the Mediterranean.
    Last edited by Dov; 16-05-17 at 14:17.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1981 View Post
    Modern Anatolia is more than just EEF + Iran_Neo/CHG though. A lot of upheavals and changes happened to the Mid East in the later Bronze Age, perhaps with the entrance of the Hittites. Suddenly R1b appears, and no, it's not from central asian Turks.
    Modern Anatolia is more than just EEF+ Iran_Neo/CHG not neccessary because of the Bronze Age but predominantly because of the Iron and Middle Ages. many Steppe and Central Asian groups moved into Anatolia during that timeframe (Cimmerians, Sarmatians, Alans, Scythians, Mitanni-Medes-Parthians, Persians, Seljuks-Ottomans).

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