This is another thing. Uralic is more useful when comparing Hittite to other IE languages.
The genomic history of southeastern Europe-Mathiesen et al
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This is another thing. Uralic is more useful when comparing Hittite to other IE languages.
Sile
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What hittite problem?
all there 30000 written tablets show
1- non-semetic langauge
2- origin of a hatti mix
3- luwian and palaic language partly included
their original gods are the same as north-caucasian ones and all their new gods are the ones from peoples they "annexed"
I got caught up in all this Anatolian BS and I forgot the most splendid part about this paper: The Sredny Stog genomes.
If you recall my musing, whether you like them or not, I see Sredny Stog as the basis for Bell Beaker and perhaps even Corded Ware, since it does hold the first example of cord ornamented pottery. "West Yamnaya" would have arose from these people. There's no reason for a source in the East. I do think Samara was the epi-center early on, and I would assign a measure of priority, but Sredny Stog became Yamnaya just as Khvalynsk did on a material culture basis.
Along with the nice mix of R1b and R1a we see in the latter phase, just before Yamnaya what is a 4 way mix of Steppe-WHG(iron gates no doubt)-Ukraine Mesolithic-and EEF.
Then when it becomes "West Yamnaya" we have Steppe and EEF mix
And here's the kicker: Among "West Yamnaya" samples in the balkans itself (Bulgaria) we have a 3 way mix of Steppe-Ukrainian Mesolithic-EEF.
Yes, that's right. It's not only steppe in the balkans, but an actual Yamnaya grave in the Balkans that is 40% steppe, 40% EEF, and 20% Iron gates (WHG).
If I had to make a brazen amateurish guess I would say that these guys were speaking Anatolian, and offer a clear, real explanation as to why there may be a less than massive influx of steppe into the Aegean.
Even a Yamnaya sample itself in the Balkans was only 40% steppe. Think about that.
If you recall my musing, whether you like them or not, I see Sredny Stog as the basis for Bell Beaker and perhaps even Corded Ware, since it does hold the first example of cord ornamented pottery. "West Yamnaya" would have arose from these people. There's no reason for a source in the East. I do think Samara was the epi-center early on, and I would assign a measure of priority, but Sredny Stog became Yamnaya just as Khvalynsk did on a material culture basis.
Along with the nice mix of R1b and R1a we see in the latter phase, just before Yamnaya what is a 4 way mix of Steppe-WHG(iron gates no doubt)-Ukraine Mesolithic-and EEF.
Then when it becomes "West Yamnaya" we have Steppe and EEF mix
And here's the kicker: Among "West Yamnaya" samples in the balkans itself (Bulgaria) we have a 3 way mix of Steppe-Ukrainian Mesolithic-EEF.
Yes, that's right. It's not only steppe in the balkans, but an actual Yamnaya grave in the Balkans that is 40% steppe, 40% EEF, and 20% Iron gates (WHG).
If I had to make a brazen amateurish guess I would say that these guys were speaking Anatolian, and offer a clear, real explanation as to why there may be a less than massive influx of steppe into the Aegean.
Even a Yamnaya sample itself in the Balkans was only 40% steppe. Think about that.
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Then why didn't they speak Caucasian?
North Caucasian ???
That supposes to me North Mesopotamia desn't it?
Hurrians then Hatti, then Hitties
What are you getting at here? (forgive my previous post)
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Boreas
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La Bu Ne
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and all other versions which means same and somekind of Turkish version of WTF
I am not native speaker of english so be more specific, if you don't understand.
(probably 99% it was my fault but your post won't help in our conversation)
I believe that main deities of Hitties come from Hatti culture and actually those are coming from Hurrian Culture
bicicleur 2
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judging from the mtDNA available, I'd say yes, they had some CHG admixture too
Alan
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That is because Bulgaria is the only possible route how they could have reached Anatolia if the Balkan route was correct, that is such an easy explanation don't know how some missed that.
Or are you propossing that the proto Anatolians went to Croatia and later settled in Bulgaria. It's just hilarious how and with what kind really the most ridiculous explanations some Steppe supporters try to defend their believes ( They came with Charriots..... only from Bulgaria better test some from Hungary too since they are such an important archeological route to reach Anatolia from the Steppes..... ).
It's also absolutely incredible how some people still ask for more Samples from parts of Europe and the Steppes while other places like South Asia, Central Asia or West Asia have not even got 1/10!!! of the samples we have already collected from Europe and the Steppes!! Some bloggers and their followers are fast in making up their conclusions on roughly ~10 samples collected from the Iranian Plateau and Caucasus. But say they have not yet collected enough samples from parts of the world which are important to them. So if some people want solve this debate by oversampling one area ( in the hope to finally find what they are searching for or something they can use as evidence) than there is no reason to debate anyways.
Alan
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Considering that by 2000 BC and probably even a little earlier we have archeological evidences of Steppe groups in that region such as Cimmerians, Scythians in Urartu, Subaru and the Mitanni.
Alan
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Now the question is what does he mean with Caucasian languages? There is no single Caucasian language family.
2. Who says "these Caucasian languages" were already in the Caucasus during the Late Neolithic? For example Kartvellian looks more like an Anatolian_Farmer language.
3. Kartvellian as well Semitic influence is attested in Proto Indo European as even by Anthony. So how can Hittite not have it?
4. Most peeps (especially their Mods and Admins) on Anthrogenica are high nosed kids that can't deal with opposing ideas and criticism. "Caucasian language substrata" yeah sure
M
MarkoZ
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Looking at the paper again I guess what needs to be addressed are Anatolian Bronze Age samples from the lake district. These are early advanced metallurgical provinces right in the epicenter of the Anatolian languages: at the intersection of historical Sidetic, Luwian & Carian regions. The timeframe is rather on point for early Anatolian, too. I'm inclined to believe that those guys spoke a form of early Anatolian/Para-Anatolian or some such.
Though perhaps this shows the limited usefulness of ancient DNA in falsifying origin hypotheses, since there's always the possibility of Y-DNA/aDNA turnovers and hidden unsampled populations.
Though perhaps this shows the limited usefulness of ancient DNA in falsifying origin hypotheses, since there's always the possibility of Y-DNA/aDNA turnovers and hidden unsampled populations.
bicicleur 2
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I don't think the researcher have any choice. They are investigating whatever uncontaminated human remains they can get with good prospects to recover enough DNA.
As for the route from the steppe to Anatolia, there is a 3rd route. It is the overseas route. Check Usatovo culture and contacts between Black Sea and Aegean. There is a reason why Troy was built 5 ka. It was in order to get controll over that route, which already existed some centuries before.
bicicleur 2
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very good question indeed
I can imagine these influences came with Maykop, that is after the split of Anatolian from the main IE branch
Angela
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Why would I celebrate it, Holderlin? When I joined the amateur community I was astonished to find that the PC steppe hypothesis had become such a hotly and bitterly contested idea. This is no reflection on you personally, I assure you, but it has seemed to me that part of the problem is that the uncritical and sometimes dishonest championship of it by racists on various racist anthroflora and blogs has "poisoned the well". Truthfully, it has always had that aspect, ever since it was proposed in Germany in the late 19th century. Some of the resistance is probably due to that. I suppose certain "national" groups have their own ax to grind. Personally, I don't care if it all came from the pen of Hitler and Goebbels. I'm only interested in whether its accurate.Come on now. I'm pretty sure there were people all but celebrating this "lack of steppe" long before others chimed inmaybe even you......
That the steppe was the vector for the branches of PIE which led to Balto-Slavic and Germanic seems to be settled. The same is probably true for Celtic/Italic. The Anatolian languages are a puzzle and always have been, and so is the actual source of Indo-European for anyone who takes a balanced approach. Grigoriev and Ivanov have to be read as well as Anthony. No less a source than the dean of Indo- European studies, Mallory, has always been aware of that, but the amateur community hasn't paid any attention.
My personal opinion, to the extent anybody cares, is that no one has yet come up with a totally satisfactory solution to the actual "origin" question. Anatolian is a big part of the puzzle, but so is the presence of agricultural vocabulary.
See:
http://www.jolr.ru/files/(112)jlr2013-9(145-154).pdf
Angela
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I don't know why we would assume that this group would have spent any appreciable time in the North Caucasus even if they passed through the Caucasus.
Plus, isn't there a school of thought that Hattic is related to the Caucasian languages? If that's the case how could there be no influence on Hittite by Caucasian languages? Unless they're speaking specifically about North Caucasian?
La Bu Ne
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and all other versions which means same and somekind of Turkish version of WTF
I am not native speaker of english so be more specific, if you don't understand.
(probably 99% it was my fault but your post won't help in our conversation)
I believe that main deities of Hitties come from Hatti culture and actually those are coming from Hurrian Culture
ha
I've read this too, and actually this is motivating me to read up on Hittites. It's been awhile.
I was mostly joking. And of course I agree that it's problematic, or else no one would really be discussing it. I think that the agricultural vocabulary can be explained by the fact that there was clearly domestic animals in the Ukraine/steppe before Yamnaya as well as grain processing tools. The Western Steppe practically overlaps the farming communities of the Balkans and contacts have always been evidenced in the material cultures. But of course we have this CHG influx, so what's that about? I'm just trying to keep everything coherent.
M
MarkoZ
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Don't blame the German - German language research barring a brief interlude of Nordicist extremism (imported from France & England) was always significantly more balanced when compared to English attempts. An Asian homeland was seriously considered in continental Europe, however English researchers did not like the notion that they were related to the 'so-called ******s of India'. The English also deemed the idea of white conquerors politically expedient as a justification of their colonial holdings in South Asia.
As recently as the 1990s no serious historian would quote the JIES of Mallory, Ivanov, Anthony et al. because it was considered an Aryanist rag founded by well-known Hitlerite Pearson. He received millions from rich amateurs and organizations like the Pioneer Fund which gave them the quasi-monopoly in anglophone Indo-European research. We're not talking about a quaint old racist here, but a proponent of Nordicist eugenics who actually wants to exterminate brown people. Mallory apparently had no qualms about working with or more accurately for the guy
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