J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

[Garrick]

Why are you wasting our time with nonsense like this. J2b2-L283 has not been found in an ancient DNA context in Thrace territory to date. So this is a disinformation. Instead, it has been found in Bronze Age Dalmatia (Illyrian territory).

You claim all/same "subclades" found in Albania are also found in Bulgaria, which is not true. Then you claim there is this hypothetical "Albanian-Bulgarian" J2b2 cluster. I know there is no such cluster either, so another disinformation.

What you don't realize or mention is that one Albanian J2b2 cluster is showing a TMRCA of 2400 ybp between two Albanian BigY's (Illyrian times) and no Bulgarian is in it:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y20899/

So multiple lies in one post by Garrick the Serb, or should I call it disinformation...

No, I didn't say that J2b2 found in Thracian land in samples in relevant epoches and historical territory, I don't know how you understood this wrong.

What I said that in today's population who live in former Thracian land (in Bulgaria, Romania etc) found J2b2, I think it is clear.

And what you didn't understand in recent scientific paper from 2017 scientists created term "Albanian-Bulgarian cluster" for J2b2, I gave this fact from their scientific paper, do you read scientific papers.

[Trojet]

And what you didn't understand in recent scientific paper from 2017 scientists created term "Albanian-Bulgarian cluster" for J2b2, I gave this fact from their scientific paper, do you read scientific papers.

Again, you don't even mention or link which "scientific paper" this alleged "Albanian-Bulgarian" J2b2 cluster was identified in. I'm sure I would've heard of it, if there was such "scientific paper".

Perhaps this is something you read from "the scientists" at the Serbian forum, Poreklo. Or perhaps you're just making it up...

[Leka]

Yes samples from relevant epoches and historical areas are proof,but unfortunately for now we have very small number of Thracian samples, and for Free Dacian there no samples.

But we know that in Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary in today's population there are J2b2 carriers, for example in descendants of Bassarab, first rulers of independent Wallachia (Romanian area) found 16 J2b2 carriers (in Internet is information that 7 J2b2 samples belong to one of the Albanian J2b2, can anyone confirm this).

In recent scientific paper scientists named J2b2 Albanian-Bulgarian cluster, and found one person in furthermost North-Western in Hungary (Carpathian area) who belongs to this cluster (maybe this person can be descendant of Free Dacians because they lived there).

Yes yes yes, relevant epoches historical areas Bastarnea CTS10228 Germanic-Celtic = Serbian - Illyrian, big number. No, J2b2 in furthemost North-Western Hungary (Carpathian area) is enslaved Dacian, confirmed scientific papers. Free Dacians no sample yet.

[Bergin]

Yes samples from relevant epoches and historical areas are proof,but unfortunately for now we have very small number of Thracian samples, and for Free Dacian there no samples.

But we know that in Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary in today's population there are J2b2 carriers, for example in descendants of Bassarab, first rulers of independent Wallachia (Romanian area) found 16 J2b2 carriers (in Internet is information that 7 J2b2 samples belong to one of the Albanian J2b2, can anyone confirm this).

In recent scientific paper scientists named J2b2 Albanian-Bulgarian cluster, and found one person in furthermost North-Western in Hungary (Carpathian area) who belongs to this cluster (maybe this person can be descendant of Free Dacians because they lived there).

Garrick, nothing is 100% sure with the actual data. It is very rare chance that the J2b2-L287 of croatia was only proto-Tharcian with no connection with proto-Illyrian. Still is not an impossibility.

I think I remember seeing on the kings bloodlines post (this forum) some J2b2 in the romanian families (and also Ev13). I dont know if they are albanian (I cannot confirm). Honestly, people moved lot after the roman empire felt and mixed with each other (even before). Balkan today is relatively homogeneous. Autosomally, albanians are closer to tuscan than to bulgarian - even though the difference is relatively small. Quite curious about the percentage of J2b2-L287 in tuscan.

I did not see the paper you are talking about, can you send me a link?

[Garrick]

Again, you don't specify which "scientific paper" this alleged "Albanian-Bulgarian" J2b2 cluster was identified in. I'm sure I would've heard of it, if such were the case.

Or perhaps this is something you read from "the scientists" at the Serbian forum, Poreklo...

What do you speak about?

I don't use Serbian sources, how many times I have to say this (except if some scientific research is done in Serbia what is very rarely), I have nothing with site Poreklo, nothing, I know nobody from this site, even very rarely read and explained once why.

It seems you read much more Poreklo than I, do you know Serbian.
...

By the way, scientists are Hungarian, what is logic because research and samples are from area in Hungaria:

Pamjav, H.

Fothi A.

Feher T.

Fothi E.

Do you want their references? They are scientists, PhD, experts, and know matter much better than we, hobbyists.

They found one carrier in their study for whom they say to belong Albanian-Bulgarian cluster.

Paper is from 2017, it is very interesting.

But you gave me idea that put this paper as new thread.

[Bergin]

current recent findings state that the dalmatians arrived on the adriatic coast between 500-600BC

and that they lived originally further north
the only population which could have been on that adriatic coast prior to 500-600BC was the thracians ............the Dorians where long gone

....
BTW.....your dates should read 450BC and the other 800AD

Sounds more like an hypothesis. There are 1000 theories about Illyrians ... now 1001. Furthermore, it is not yet even presented as a conjecture that can be tested right or wrong by future findings. As they state in the document: one may suppose, one may ask!

Clearly, this is just my opinion and you have all the rights to believe in it. (but honestly, do you see inland people moving to the sea-side and use zero of their previous skills?)

[Zanatis]

Why is history always discussed and why does it matter?

[blevins13]

The thracians are far too numerous in the balkans .............I would like to find out if the Dorians where a sub-branch of the Thracians. it would then mean that ancient greek and ancient thracian linguistically can be aligned and as we know now illyrian and greek is not aligned.

Illyrian is most likely a sub- east celtic dialect similar to pannonia

Keep wishing.....


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[Leka]

Paper he is referring to.

[Sile]

Sounds more like an hypothesis. There are 1000 theories about Illyrians ... now 1001. Furthermore, it is not yet even presented as a conjecture that can be tested right or wrong by future findings. As they state in the document: one may suppose, one may ask!
Clearly, this is just my opinion and you have all the rights to believe in it. (but honestly, do you see inland people moving to the sea-side and use zero of their previous skills?)

That is a nice answer from someone who will believe what they want to believe if it fits their agenda..........sounds like nearly everyone on this forum

Strabo the roman historians did say many times the illyrians mixed with celts in the alps ...............and clearly we have an agenda when many people deny that the illyrians where in the alps

[Jovialis]

"Agenda, agenda, agenda"

Did you just learn this word, and now are using it as often as you can?

[halfalp]

The possibility of J2b to be an anatolian link, of some bronze age migrants into balkans, is very interesting and tempting. But linked that eventual migration with spread of indo-european languages, is not. Armenians and Mycaenians are not the archetype of the indo-european people like Celts or Iranians were. Greek, Latin, Germanic, are very offshore groups, little elits who becomed a cultural majority in there time. I think people want really put a lot of emphasis on every hypothesis who can counter the Steppe Hypothesis. J2b is definitely an haplogroup who has to be studied from the begining of his recent expansion somewhere in western asia + iran.

[Garrick]

I did not see the paper you are talking about, can you send me a link?

A study of the Bodrogköz population in north‑eastern Hungary
by Y chromosomal haplotypes and haplogroups

Paper is from this year created by Hungarian scientists, unfortunately someone who tries to access cannot, only abstract and supplement materials are avaliable.

Authors found one J2b carrier belongs Albanian-Bulgarian cluster, quote:

"TMRCA estimates (30 years/generation):
Albanian–Bulgarian cluster: 1781 ± 381 YBP."

What is interesting plus authors identified one E-V13 carrier as Albanian admixture.

[Bergin]

That is a nice answer from someone who will believe what they want to believe if it fits their agenda..........sounds like nearly everyone on this forum

Strabo the roman historians did say many times the illyrians mixed with celts in the alps ...............and clearly we have an agenda when many people deny that the illyrians where in the alps

This is what I believe:

If someones words from the chronicles of the time makes a link between illyrians and the alps, then there is a good reason to look for proof in this direction.

Similarly, if Strabos say A then go and proof it with pottery or other archaeological means. Do claim it after you found proof.
If by chance you do find some proof of the opposite, let us say an illyrian settlement from the BA, then you have to face options: - accept that empirical facts rule over words, or follow the scriptures.


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[Garrick]

Mountain who is author of seminal volumes "The Celtic Encyclopedia" studied all Celts plus all people related with Celts.

Mountain found that Illyrians were mining salt at Gmunden, in Austria.

It means according Mountain Illyrians were in present day Austria.

[Trojet]

A study of the Bodrogköz population in north‑eastern Hungary
by Y chromosomal haplotypes and haplogroups
Paper is from this year created by Hungarian scientists, unfortunately someone who tries to access cannot, only abstract and supplement materials are avaliable.
Authors found one J2b carrier belongs Albanian-Bulgarian cluster, quote:
"TMRCA estimates (30 years/generation):
Albanian–Bulgarian cluster: 1781 ± 381 YBP."
What is interesting plus authors identified one E-V13 carrier as Albanian admixture.

I have known about this this paper as soon as it came out, and I have even analyzed the STR haplotypes, which are low resolution 23 Y-STRs and 30 Y-SNPs. Out of a total 148 haplotypes, there is only 4 J2b-M12, and no mention whatsoever of comparison with Albanians or Bulgarians by the authors.

You should be banned for deliberately posting disinformation on a regular basis.

[Garrick]

I have known about this this paper as soon as it came out, and I have even analyzed the STR haplotypes.

No mention whatsoever by the authors of what you claim.

You should be banned for deliberately posting disinformation on a regular basis.

I gave qoute of original words of authors.

If someone wants he or she can analyze paper if I made any mistake, but no.

I don't know why someone should be banned if quoted authors.

What I quoted, for J2b, post #88, everyone can see:

"TMRCA estimates (30 years/generation):
Albanian–Bulgarian cluster: 1781 ± 381 YBP."

Of course paper is not for wider use because it is not given in Internet as whole, and it is only reason why I don't want put as thread although paper is very interesting.

I have known about this this paper as soon as it came out, and I have even analyzed the STR haplotypes. There is only 4 out of 148 J2b-M12 haplotypes, and no mention of comparison with Albanians or Bulgarians.

I have impression that you read only abstract and supplement materials, I have whole paper and can quote more but it can not be exaggerated.

You really are not right, completely.

I give wider quote of authors, page 886:

"Four Hungarian samples split from a common ancestor much earlier (as illustrated by the diversity and the molecular mutational steps shown in Fig. 4), and only one belonged to the Albanian–Bulgarian cluster.

TMRCA estimates (30 years/generation):
Albanian–Bulgarian cluster: 1781 ± 381 YBP."

...
You should apologize to me for words you gave, for no reason.

[Trojet]

Of course, we keep hearing: Mycenaean, Thracian, Dacian, Carpi, Bulgarian, Romanian, Hungarian, etc. As long as no association with Illyrians.

Well, I have news for you. A picture (ancient DNA) is worth a thousand words:



Source: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/09/19/135616
Perhaps it would help if you tattoo this picture on your body

[Dema]

Seems like i cant quote entire text, anyways, do you guys agree on j2b2 text that stands on Eupedia now?

[Sile]

Mountain who is author of seminal volumes "The Celtic Encyclopedia" studied all Celts plus all people related with Celts.
Mountain found that Illyrians were mining salt at Gmunden, in Austria.
It means according Mountain Illyrians were in present day Austria.

you need to ignore some people on this forum .........but realise that known thracian according to historians started 3200BC in the balkans ..........illyrian 1300BC in the alps.
.
Gimbatus is who you should read.

.
Bronze Age cultures in Central and Eastern Europe
By Marija Gimbutas
.
Halstatt culture ....from Hal in illyrian meaning salt and statt from celtic meaning town ...................the later germans changed statt to stadt for the word town

[Yetos]

Gibutas although is quite good in Yamnaa and central north IE devastation

is tottaly wrong in meditterenean and Anatolian IE

[Dema]

This is text on Eupedia as it stands today with 23 October of 2017.
Can we be more constructive and focus on genetic and facts also try to comment on these texts as they stand on Eupedia.

J2b2-L283: from Neolithic Iran to the Indo-Europeans

J2b has a quite different distribution from J2a. At first sight, the modern distribution of J2b seems to have a stronger association with the Neolithic and Chalcolithic cultures of Southeast Europe. Yet, at present, J2b has never been found in Neolithic, Chalcolithic, nor even Bronze Age Europe, nor in the Fertile Crescent during the Neolithic or Chalcolithic. J2b is also absent from western and central Anatolia, but is present in eastern Anatolia and western Iran, as well as in the Volga-Ural region, notably among the Mordvins, Chuvashs and Tatars. The oldest known J2b sample comes from the Pre-Pottery Neolithic site of Tepe Abdul Hosein in western Iran, dating from approximately 10,000 years ago. This is the strongest evidence that J2b actually originated in the mountains of the Zagros or the Caucasus, rather than in the plains of the Fertile Crescent.The vast majority of J2b lineages belong to J2b2 and its subclades. While J2b* and J2b1 lineages are mostly restricted to the Caucasus, eastern Anatolia and the Balkans, J2b2 is found throughout Europe, in the Pontic-Caspian Steppe, in Central Asia and in South Asia, particularly in India. Although J2b2 itself was formed 14,000 years ago, almost all European J2b2 members belong to the L283 branch and share a common patrilineal ancestor who lived 6,000 years ago. What's more, 99% of them fall under the Z628 (aka Z597) clade, with a shared common ancestor who lived only 4,500 years ago. This Z628 clade is also found in India, Armenia and the Levant, among others.The most likely hypothesis is that J2b2a1 (L283) penetrated into the Pontic Steppe region during the Neolithic or Chalcolithic period, by crossing the Caucasus from western Iran, then migrated to the Volga-Ural region, where it was absorbed by the R1a-Z93 tribes in the Early Bronze Age. As a minor lineage within the R1a-Z93 dominant populations, it would have expanded from the Volga-Ural region to Central and South Asia with the Indo-Aryan invasions approximately from 4,300 to 3,500 years ago. Other J2b lineages could have ended up in the Balkans during a number of Steppe invasions from the Bronze Age until the Middle Ages.Another conceivable possibility is that a minority of J2b2-L283 accompanied R1b-M269 from the Caucasus region and migrated to the Volga-Ural region in the early Bronze Age, propagating with them the Proto-Indo-European language and bronze technology to the Caspian steppe before the expansion of this new culture to Central and South Asia. The drawback of this hypothesis is that it doesn't explain why R1b lineages strongly outnumber J2b2 in Europe but not in South Asia.The oldest J2b2-L283 sample recovered among ancient DNA samples is a Late Bronze Age (1700-1500 BCE) individual from southern Croatia (Mathieson et al. 2017). His genome possessed about 30% of Steppe admixture and 15% of Eastern Hunter-Gatherer, which suggest a recent arrival from the Steppe. He was accompanied by a woman with similar admixtures, and both possessed typical Pontic-Caspian Steppe mtDNA (I1a1 and W3a). The timing, location and admixtures of these samples fit with the Illyrian colonisation of the Dinaric Alps, which is thought to have taken place between 1600 and 1100 BCE. The Illyrians may have been late Steppe migrants from the Volga region that were forced out of the Steppe by the invasion of the northern R1a tribes who established the Srubna culture (from 2000 BCE). Through a founding effect, J2b2-L283 lineages might have considerably increased their original frequency after reaching Illyria.Both J2b1 and J2b2-L283 are also found at high frequency in Greece and in regions that used to be part of the ancient Greek world (Ionia, Magna Graecia). However they are almost absent from Crete (where J2a1 lineages are dominant). J2b was also not found among Neolithic Anatolian or European farmers, and is absent from central Anatolia. This suggests that J2b was not associated with the Neolithic Greeks nor with the Minoan civilisation, but may well have come to Greece with the Mycenaeans, who also appear to have been pushed out of the Steppe by the advance of the Srubna culture. As a result, both the Illyrians and the Mycenaeans (and possibly the Albanians) would be descended from Middle to Late Bronze Age Steppe migrants to the Southeast Europe, in a migration that was particularly rich in J2b lineages from the Middle Volga region. That would explain why it has been so hard to identify R1a or R1b lineages that could be of Illyrian or Mycenaean origin. The only variety of R1b that is found at reasonably high frequencies in Southeast Europe, and particularly in Greece, is R1b-Z2103, the branch found in the eastern Yamna culture, including the Volga-Ural region.

[Sile]

This is text on Eupedia as it stands today with 23 October of 2017.
Can we be more constructive and focus on genetic and facts also try to comment on these texts as they stand on Eupedia.

thanks

as per your link
The timing, location and admixtures of these samples fit with the Illyrian colonisation of the Dinaric Alps, which is thought to have taken place between 1600 and 1100 BCE. The Illyrians may have been late Steppe migrants from the Volga region that were forced out of the Steppe by the invasion of the northern R1a tribes who established the Srubna culture (from 2000 BCE).

Gimbatus estimated it between 1500 and 1300 BC and origins in the eastern alps

The ones that went further south in the bronze-age became , IMO part of the thracian family ..............which according to archaeology, the thracian reached Thessaly and the Pindus mountains in Greece ( that is for another thread )

[Garrick]

You should be banned for deliberately posting disinformation on a regular basis.

It was your fault and you require ban me.

I gave honest way for you to apologize me, but you have no intention.

I am European, I'm not interested if someone is Serb, Finn, Jamaican, Albanian, Lao, etc... only important is character.

Long before I tried to participate in an Albanian site about Hellenic culture as Albanian, Greek gods as Albanian gods, and similar, I had message, found Albanian translator, but when sent momentarily was banned.

Benjamin Franklin: Without freedom of thought, there can be no such thing as wisdom - and no such thing as public liberty without freedom of speech.

[Garrick]

Gibutas although is quite good in Yamnaa and central north IE devastation

is tottaly wrong in meditterenean and Anatolian IE

Generally people (and I sometimes) unintentionally and what is so easier equalize pre-population and proto-population and it is big mistake.

So J2b2 carriers cannot be only one population, after coming to Europe some of them later become Thracians/Dacians/Free Dacians, Greeks, Illyrians, Celts, Italic people etc.