J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

Trojet said:
For now all we have about the sample is: NEO281, Kotias Klde, Georgia, 7773 BC: J2b
As we know, there is already a Mesolithic sample from this exact cave that was J2a-Y12379 and apparently carried the same mtDNA clade. So, either there is some mix up with the existing J2a sample or this is indeed a new sample that is J2b. At this point, I think we'll have to wait for the raw data and analyze it manually.
Adding to the suspicion, unlike for NEO806, the authors aren't providing any deeper classification for this alleged Mesolithic J2b sample.
Click to expand...

7700 BC. Wow. That would be the hypothetical formation date for the L283 branch. Looking forward to further updates on this NEO281 sample.
 
All it takes for Y-DNA to spread all it takes is 1 successful person. Imagine one wealthy dude migrates from some random far place to Europe, and spreads his gene to his successor, who would presumably also would be successful.

I would say J2B2 and EV-13 would be some amazing story where 1 individual spreads his gene rapidly, but the reality is all these IE-speaking people have clades that were not present in Yamnaya. R-L51, R1a, J2b2, EV-13 none of them have been in Yamnaya, yet even Corded Ware cousins of Yamnaya were R1a heavy.

I feel like any origin stories of these clades are pointless at this stage because there is something MAJOR we're missing about PIE speakers.
 
As for Messapians, I think linguists are all coming around to the fact that Albanian/Messapic are related. Are there any linguists that deny this? Eric Hamp called it Messapo-Illyrian and place Albanian under that branch. I think even that weirdo Matzinger states that Albanian-Messapic are related.

We have this clear triangle now

Albanian <-> Messapian {Related by inscriptions, and J2b2/Z638}
Illyrian <-> Messapian {Related by personal names, and J2b2}
Albanian <-> Illyrian {Tribe names and some place names}

Even Brindisi today in Italy is related to the word "Bri" in Albanian etymologically.
 
enter_tain said:
As for Messapians, I think linguists are all coming around to the fact that Albanian/Messapic are related. Are there any linguists that deny this? Eric Hamp called it Messapo-Illyrian and place Albanian under that branch. I think even that weirdo Matzinger states that Albanian-Messapic are related.

We have this clear triangle now

Albanian <-> Messapian {Related by inscriptions, and J2b2/Z638}
Illyrian <-> Messapian {Related by personal names, and J2b2}
Albanian <-> Illyrian {Tribe names and some place names}

Even Brindisi today in Italy is related to the word "Bri" in Albanian etymologically.
Click to expand...


so what are you saying ?

1 - Albanian came from Croatian lands .......went to Apulia, crossed the sea and settled in Albania

or

2 - Messapian took their language from croatia to Apulia, then when they opened trade in circa 400BC with Epirus coast , brought their trading language to Epirus ?


many people spoke Latin, but only a small percentage where Romans
 
enter_tain said:
I feel like any origin stories of these clades are pointless at this stage because there is something MAJOR we're missing about PIE speakers.
Click to expand...

Maybe what we are missing is the highly heterogenous nature of Indo-European speakers.
 
Vallicanus said:
Maybe what we are missing is the highly heterogenous nature of Indo-European speakers.
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In Y-DNA. Yet, they are very similar in their autosomal components... So obviously, it's not just a random cultural change, but highly associated with descent of a small group of people.

Like I said, those Corded Ware people were cousins with the Yamnaya by looking at their IBD, but their Y-DNA was completely different. Some of those archeologists have put forth notions of an underclass, and it might be true. Maybe these R1b-L51, R1as, J2B2s, EV13s, etc... were Yamnaya under classes or something, that didn't get burials.
 
torzio said:
so what are you saying ?

1 - Albanian came from Croatian lands .......went to Apulia, crossed the sea and settled in Albania

or

2 - Messapian took their language from croatia to Apulia, then when they opened trade in circa 400BC with Epirus coast , brought their trading language to Epirus ?


many people spoke Latin, but only a small percentage where Romans
Click to expand...

It is obvious what he is saying.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
 
torzio said:
so what are you saying ?
1 - Albanian came from Croatian lands .......went to Apulia, crossed the sea and settled in Albania
or
2 - Messapian took their language from croatia to Apulia, then when they opened trade in circa 400BC with Epirus coast , brought their trading language to Epirus ?
many people spoke Latin, but only a small percentage where Romans
Click to expand...

Yes, you know very well. This:

enter_tain said:
As for Messapians, I think linguists are all coming around to the fact that Albanian/Messapic are related. Are there any linguists that deny this? Eric Hamp called it Messapo-Illyrian and place Albanian under that branch. I think even that weirdo Matzinger states that Albanian-Messapic are related.

We have this clear triangle now

Albanian <-> Messapian {Related by inscriptions, and J2b2/Z638}
Illyrian <-> Messapian {Related by personal names, and J2b2}
Albanian <-> Illyrian {Tribe names and some place names}

Even Brindisi today in Italy is related to the word "Bri" in Albanian etymologically.
Click to expand...
 
Trojet said:
Yes, you know very well. This:
Click to expand...

Language does not relate to ethnicity ..............we all speak English here, but we are not from England

Ancients also had trade languages be it celtic, thracian, Latin , Gallic, Germanic etc etc
 
torzio said:
Language does not relate to ethnicity ..............we all speak English here, but we are not from England

Ancients also had trade languages be it celtic, thracian, Latin , Gallic, Germanic etc etc
Click to expand...
Does mother tongue relate to ethnicity? You know that people aren't born bilingual.
 
enter_tain said:
As for Messapians, I think linguists are all coming around to the fact that Albanian/Messapic are related. Are there any linguists that deny this? Eric Hamp called it Messapo-Illyrian and place Albanian under that branch. I think even that weirdo Matzinger states that Albanian-Messapic are related.

We have this clear triangle now

Albanian <-> Messapian {Related by inscriptions, and J2b2/Z638}
Illyrian <-> Messapian {Related by personal names, and J2b2}
Albanian <-> Illyrian {Tribe names and some place names}

Even Brindisi today in Italy is related to the word "Bri" in Albanian etymologically.
Click to expand...
Is Matzinger saying that Messapians had to take the plane from Sofia to Brindisi because Illyrian border police wouldn't let them pass as.
 
Polska said:
7700 BC. Wow. That would be the hypothetical formation date for the L283 branch. Looking forward to further updates on this NEO281 sample.
Click to expand...

The more I think of this, the bigger deal it seems. Given TMRCA and everything, assuming its not a mislabel, this can really be the key to the whole L283 if its indeed a progenitor... After which point we might as well talk about deep history, since all that would be left would be pre civilization HGs.
 
enter_tain said:
All it takes for Y-DNA to spread all it takes is 1 successful person. Imagine one wealthy dude migrates from some random far place to Europe, and spreads his gene to his successor, who would presumably also would be successful.

I would say J2B2 and EV-13 would be some amazing story where 1 individual spreads his gene rapidly, but the reality is all these IE-speaking people have clades that were not present in Yamnaya. R-L51, R1a, J2b2, EV-13 none of them have been in Yamnaya, yet even Corded Ware cousins of Yamnaya were R1a heavy.

I feel like any origin stories of these clades are pointless at this stage because there is something MAJOR we're missing about PIE speakers.
Click to expand...

What makes you think they were indo european speaking initially?
 
torzio said:
Language does not relate to ethnicity ..............we all speak English here, but we are not from England
Ancients also had trade languages be it celtic, thracian, Latin , Gallic, Germanic etc etc
Click to expand...

It is different in modern times with the internet, social media and even books/schools. Back then people didnt have all of this so only spoke the language of the locals
 
torzio said:
Language does not relate to ethnicity ..............we all speak English here, but we are not from England

Ancients also had trade languages be it celtic, thracian, Latin , Gallic, Germanic etc etc
Click to expand...

A second language is not the same. In Central Europe there were many places in which people could speak more than one language, at least a bit, but they still defined themselves by what primary/mother tongue they spoke and under normal, non-modern state/civilisation conditions, language is a primary marker for ethnic identity.
 
I'm surprised there's still no J2b2 in the Middle Don area though. I always suspected that they were a minor CHG lineage from the Caucaus that spread with Yamnaya.

Maybe we just need more samples.
 
TaktikatEMalet said:
What makes you think they were indo european speaking initially?
Click to expand...

No way to prove this definitively, but IE people were very patriarchal and genocidal towards outside males. See what they did to G and T males.

All of those lineages (R1a, R-L51, J2B2, EV13) expanded rapidly in Early Bronze Age, and had noticeable steppe ancestry.
 
enter_tain said:
No way to prove this definitively, but IE people were very patriarchal and genocidal towards outside males. See what they did to G and T males.
All of those lineages (R1a, R-L51, J2B2, EV13) expanded rapidly in Early Bronze Age, and had noticeable steppe ancestry.
Click to expand...
Yes indo europeans (asians) did pretty much wipe out the original europeans (i2a and i1) and bring the indo european language. However i dont think this applies to the j2b l283 people as so far they seem to be found completely lacking in r1b. It is highly unlikely they spoke an indo european language initially
 
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