J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

[Riverman]

This is from 2000BC and why are you ignoring all the i2a found in mokrin (4x) which looked to carry elite items but bringing up the 1 j2b?
Anyway, what does mokrin being mostly i2a and r1b have to do with j2b l283 being found (10+) in croatia and italy + north africa but never alongside any r1b? Doesnt this mean the j2b l283 wiped out the mokrin r1b/i2a in those regions or was pushed back by the mokrin r1b/i2a to the coast?

The Maros group was pushed South and West by groups coming from different directions (South, North and East). Eventually that area of the Maros group was nearly completely taken by G?va related formations dominated by E-V13. It seems J-L283 did just better than the haplogroups found in Maros and might have been present, even at that time, in other yet unsampled group.

We have a later case of J-L283 alongside Bell Beaker derived/Tumulus culture R-L2, in Novo Mesto, in the strongly Illyrian influenced Hallstatt Unterkrainische Gruppe. Hat was the area (around Slovenia), where the contact between R-L2 and J-L283 was particularly intensive. From there many innovations spread along the Adriatic coast and inland, being apparently spread by J-L283 carriers.

This map is of key importance to understand what happened:

https://indo-european.eu/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/13-bronze-age-middle.jpg

The purple group in very Eastern Hungary and Romania, with a centre along the Tisza-K?r?s rivers, down to Northern Serbia, were people mostly cremating, from which G?va and Channelled ware developed (especially Berkesz-Demecser and Suciu de Sus, Igrita, Cehalut). Its from these groups E-V13 spread in the LBA to the Balkans.

At the same time the Tumulus culture and later Middle Danubian Urnfielders came from the Upper Danube-Alpine zone into Pannonia and the Balkans. They were R1b, especially R-L2 dominated.

This means there were two big pushes, one from the North West (R-L2/TC/UF) and the other from the North/North East (E-V13/G?va). J-L283 is likely to have started in the direct neighbourhood and under strong pressure of R-L2, from which they got a lot of cultural influences and innovations though. With these they pushed South, along the Adriatic, but also inland - this is the foundation of the Illyrians.

The only remaining issue I have is with the relationship of Cetina with Posu?je. Cetina would have the ideal position, but we had these debates that Posu?je shows a lack of continuity with Cetina. One theory goes that the Posu?je/Dinaric group comes from the Castellieri group, you have them all on the map. One open question is also whether Castelliere had Italian influences.
In any case, these three group, Castellieri, Posu?je and Cetina, are what we have to look at very carefully. They all were at the Adriatic with contacts to Italy, they all had contacts to the R1b-Bell Beaker derived groups/Tumulus culture and they all being interconnected. As far as I understood, Posu?je is a proven case. Question is if going one step back, do we end with Castellieri and/or Cetina? Going back two steps - end we up to the East (Maros?) or West (Italy) or something even older in place of these three later groups.

There are some gaps in the archaeological research:

From a chronological perspective, more attention has been paid within the research history to earlier or later cultures of the same area, such as the Early Bronze Age1 Cetina Culture (ca. 2300?1850 BCE), with its typical burial mounds, bronzes and richly decorated vessels,2 or to the Iron Age cultures, with a major part of the overall knowledge relying on comparisons to hillforts and necropoleis in the Northern Dalmatia area, which have been studied in more detail, as well as a few pottery studies.3 The in-between period (about 1850?900 BCE) is still, in a number of ways, an unwritten page in the Bronze Age history of the area.

Some handle types, such as vertical handles with a plate in the upper joint (Fig. 4.23) or those with a triangular front (Fig. 2.2,4 and Fig. 3.11,18,19), are clearly models belonging to the Istrian Castellieri Culture.29 Some other models, such as pierced handles with twisted margins (Fig. 4.30?31) or spiral-shaped excised motifs (Fig. 4.32?33), are completely unrelated to the eastern Adriatic pottery variability, being instead typical elements of the Italian so-called Apennine Culture.30

Moreover, the similarity between some pots from Vranjic and some pots from Trinitapoli in Northern Apulia31 serves as the iconic representation of the intensity of trans-Adriatic contacts in this period (Fig. 5).32

Regarding the Bronze Age phase analysed here, some elements can be highlighted: A) The presence at the site of clearly Istrian models (such as vertical handles with plate in the upper joint and vertical handles with a triangular front). B) The presence of clearly Appennine-like models, such as spiral-shaped excised decorations and pierced handles with twisted margins. C) The quantity and quality of comparisons that ? starting from Vranjic ? can be established with the Istrian Castellieri Culture to the north and with Northern Apulia to the west (mainly concerning ovoid and globular tankards/pitchers).

https://www.academia.edu/44948137/V..._the_Middle_Bronze_Age_19th_14th_century_BCE_

The situation was different in the hinterland, but this needs to be investigated in detail. In any case, from my point of view, only a North West -> South East movement makes sense for J-L283 and the Illyrians. Coming from contacts with Italy and the Alpine zone.

Might be disproven at some point, but I don't see contradictory evidence right now.

 

[Wanderer]

2 knew basal J-Z600 samples!
id:YF104018new
id:YF103986new

Where are the samples from?
Or the ethnicity?
[emoji848]
https://www.yfull.com/tree/j-l283/

 

[enter_tain]

We're starting to see a southern shift in these Croatian Illyrians after the Iron Age into Late Antiquity, and more EV-13s popping up with time.

This is a J2B2-L283/Z631 Croatian from 575 AD (credit to ph2ter from Anthrogenica). Very little relation to modern Yugoslavs, so clearly pre-Migration Age genetically.

 

[torzio]

We're starting to see a southern shift in these Croatian Illyrians after the Iron Age into Late Antiquity, and more EV-13s popping up with time.

This is a J2B2-L283/Z631 Croatian from 575 AD (credit to ph2ter from Anthrogenica). Very little relation to modern Yugoslavs, so clearly pre-Migration Age genetically.

As soon as first slavs moved into the western balkans, the shift started

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

We're starting to see a southern shift in these Croatian Illyrians after the Iron Age into Late Antiquity, and more EV-13s popping up with time.
This is a J2B2-L283/Z631 Croatian from 575 AD (credit to ph2ter from Anthrogenica). Very little relation to modern Yugoslavs, so clearly pre-Migration Age genetically.

Yet it is closest to central/north italians?

Anyway, so far with all the ancient j2b l283 across croatia/slovenia (10+ samples now?) we have yet to see a single r1b alongside. This means these j2b l283 people likely did not speak an indo european language at this point

 

[Riverman]

Yet it is closest to central/north italians?
Anyway, so far with all the ancient j2b l283 across croatia/slovenia (10+ samples now?) we have yet to see a single r1b alongside. This means these j2b l283 people likely did not speak an indo european language at this point

The strict correlation of primary IE lineages with IE languages was long gone by that time.
J-L283, E-V13 and I-M253 clearly became leading lineages of newly emerging IE ethnolinguistic groups, Illyrian, Thracian and Germanic respectively.
At the same time earlier IE lineages began to dpeak non-IE languages.
So regardless of whether or not J-L283 came from the steppe, the currently sampled MBA individuals highly like spoke IE, most like Illyrian related dialects.
They were in company of Yamnaya and Bell Beaker lineages before already.

One interesting question is whether the bulk of Balkan R-Z2103 was leaning towards Illyrian, Thracian, or other like Greek and Paeonian for example.

 

[enter_tain]

Yet it is closest to central/north italians?
Anyway, so far with all the ancient j2b l283 across croatia/slovenia (10+ samples now?) we have yet to see a single r1b alongside. This means these j2b l283 people likely did not speak an indo european language at this point

??????????

 

[enter_tain]

The strict correlation of primary IE lineages with IE languages was long gone by that time.
J-L283, E-V13 and I-M253 clearly became leading lineages of newly emerging IE ethnolinguistic groups, Illyrian, Thracian and Germanic respectively.
At the same time earlier IE lineages began to dpeak non-IE languages.
So regardless of whether or not J-L283 came from the steppe, the currently sampled MBA individuals highly like spoke IE, most like Illyrian related dialects.
They were in company of Yamnaya and Bell Beaker lineages before already.
One interesting question is whether the bulk of Balkan R-Z2103 was leaning towards Illyrian, Thracian, or other like Greek and Paeonian for example.

There is nothing linking EV-13s to being majority Thracian. Stop making shit up.

 

[mount123]

2 knew basal J-Z600 samples!
id:YF104018new
id:YF103986new

Where are the samples from?
Or the ethnicity?
[emoji848]
https://www.yfull.com/tree/j-l283/

Thanks for the info have just seen it will indeed be interesting to know.

Also in regards to J2b-L283>Z600 this is an AD sample from the Stable population structure paper:

R6693 (Svilos_Krusevlje, 1666.25bp): J-Z600

Roman_Svilos_Serbia_J-Z600:R6693-simulatedK13,0.118,0.1477,0.0205,-0.0136,0.0295,-0.0047,-0.0022,-0.001,0.0106,0.0204,0.0006,0.0066,-0.014,-0.0087,-0.001,-0.0041,-0.0038,-0.0022,0.0052,-0.0037,-0.0021,-0.0008,-0.001,0.0035,-0.006

Distance to: Roman_Svilos_Serbia_J-Z600:R6693
0.02149569 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR33
0.02297233 HRV_EIA:I26742
0.02310835 HRV_EBA:I3499
0.02311236 ITA_Collegno_MA:CL23
0.02334923 HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ43
0.02504006 DEU_MA_Alemannic_o2:NIEcap3c
0.02713316 GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log02
0.02744250 ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR1287
0.02767532 ITA_Collegno_MA:CL36
0.02781269 SVK_IA_Vekerzug:I12099
0.02832713 SRB_Mokrin_EBA_Maros:I23205
0.02862490 HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ28
0.02951067 HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ36
0.02954139 ITA_Proto-Villanovan:RMPR1
0.03001938 DEU_MA_Alemannic_o1:NIEcap3b
0.03021426 ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR55
0.03028203 HUN_La_Tene:I18491
0.03041150 Iberia_Northeast_c.8-12CE:I10892
0.03065187 HRV_EIA:I23995
0.03070568 HUN_LBA_EIA:I11683
0.03075395 HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ37
0.03086413 SRB_Mokrin_EBA_Maros_oAegean:MOK17A
0.03088926 HRV_MBA:I4331
0.03101084 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR36
0.03104091 HRV_EIA:I23904


Distance to: Roman_Svilos_Serbia_J-Z600:R6693
0.01320825 Italian_Piedmont
0.01716743 Italian_Tuscany
0.01883239 Italian_Lombardy
0.01910340 Swiss_Italian
0.01927188 Italian_Bergamo
0.02167704 Italian_Veneto
0.02295398 Italian_Liguria
0.02341864 French_Corsica
0.02437171 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02586385 Italian_Marche
0.02764063 Greek_Thessaly
0.02770083 Italian_Umbria
0.03092038 Italian_Northeast
0.03108506 Spanish_Menorca
0.03122941 Spanish_Eivissa
0.03198981 Spanish_Baleares
0.03232241 Spanish_Mallorca
0.03266860 French_Provence
0.03315647 Italian_Lazio
0.03316416 Albanian
0.03574208 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.03588934 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.03599335 Greek_Macedonia
0.03679073 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.03698669 Spanish_Extremadura

Do you know, by chance, if the Z600 assignment for the Serbian is his final placement? That would be a big deal to find a “pure” Z600 there.

Have just moved your earlier post regarding the sample above to this thread. Trojet might enlighten us.

 

[Illyria]

Saying that the E-V13 in Illyria is Thracian, when they were Illyrianized long ago, is like saying I1 in Germany isn't German, they're paleolithic hunter gatherers, lol. How far back do the E-V13 maxis want to go? Fug it, let's go even further back, E-V13 is ancient African-Nile-Egyptian, J2b2 is ancient Zagrosian-Sumerian-Iranian, R1b is ancient Asian You know what, I wanna go even further back, I'm not repping J2b2 anymore, I'll rep the 60,000 year old father haplogroup, 'IJ"

How come Europeans with haplogroup Q and N don't have hardcore fantasies of claiming distant Asian origins? How come the Finnish and Estonians Latvians Lithuanians don't have ancient Siberian wet dreams? Because what their recent ancestors were, is more relevant. The further you go back, the less it matters in today's current times. It's cool to be proud of distant origins, but it's cringe to cling to them and deny other influences.

Only the E-V13 Albanians and E-V13 Slavs have a hardcore yearning for Thracians, we clearly see now that some E-V13 in the Western Balkans were Illyrianized, but they just close their eyes and start crying "Gava Belegis Morava Vardar Dardani Galabri Calabri, they were Dardanized Daunians in Southern Italy bro, only J2b2 showed up cuz E-V13 cremated bro "

 

[Trojet]

2 knew basal J-Z600 samples!
id:YF104018new
id:YF103986new
Where are the samples from?
Or the ethnicity?
[emoji848]
https://www.yfull.com/tree/j-l283/

In the "live" version (https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/J-Z600/) it can be seen they both share many SNPs with the existing J-Z600* sample defined by J-Y260401 plus 50 others, which means they are near Y relatives. So they should be of western European ancestry as well. In fact, I know one of them is.

Do you know, by chance, if the Z600 assignment for the Serbian is his final placement? That would be a big deal to find a “pure” Z600 there.

Unfortunately, R6693 Y coverage is not high enough to know his terminal placement. More specifically he is Z600+, Z585+, Z615 No Coverage, Z597 NC, Y146400 NC, Z2507 NC, Y15058 NC, Z638 NC, etc. Then, there is many downstream/younger subclades that are negative. But given this information, he is possibly somewhere in between J-Z585 and J-Z2507, perhaps even like the MOK15 sample.

 

[Wanderer]

In the "live" version (https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/J-Z600/) it can be seen they both share many SNPs with the existing J-Z600* sample defined by J-Y260401 plus 50 others, which means they are near Y relatives. So they should be of western European ancestry as well. In fact, I know one of them is.

I was told they are English I believe. Or seemed to be English. Because of the last names.
But supposedly most likely recent migrants.

 

[Riverman]

Saying that the E-V13 in Illyria is Thracian, when they were Illyrianized long ago, is like saying I1 in Germany isn't German, they're paleolithic hunter gatherers, lol. How far back do the E-V13 maxis want to go? Fug it, let's go even further back, E-V13 is ancient African-Nile-Egyptian, J2b2 is ancient Zagrosian-Sumerian-Iranian, R1b is ancient Asian You know what, I wanna go even further back, I'm not repping J2b2 anymore, I'll rep the 60,000 year old father haplogroup, 'IJ"

How come Europeans with haplogroup Q and N don't have hardcore fantasies of claiming distant Asian origins? How come the Finnish and Estonians Latvians Lithuanians don't have ancient Siberian wet dreams? Because what their recent ancestors were, is more relevant. The further you go back, the less it matters in today's current times. It's cool to be proud of distant origins, but it's cringe to cling to them and deny other influences.

Only the E-V13 Albanians and E-V13 Slavs have a hardcore yearning for Thracians, we clearly see now that some E-V13 in the Western Balkans were Illyrianized, but they just close their eyes and start crying "Gava Belegis Morava Vardar Dardani Galabri Calabri, they were Dardanized Daunians in Southern Italy bro, only J2b2 showed up cuz E-V13 cremated bro "

I meant the Proto-stage, since a comment was indicating these haplogroups were non-IE in the Iron Age, which they were not.
I completely agree with you of course, because subclades are what matters in this respect.
E-V13 is European, regardless where it came from. E-Z5018 and E-Z5017 in particular are Daco-Thracian/Channelled Ware derived.
Similarly, we will detect younger subclades of E-V13 which will be Illyrian and there will be J-L283 in Thracian and Sarmatian groups, because there was exchange.
So its about the time frame and subclades, always.

Point is though, I doubt there will be a lot of E-V13 bin Illyrian related groups before 1.200 BC. After that, everything is possible.

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

The strict correlation of primary IE lineages with IE languages was long gone by that time.
J-L283, E-V13 and I-M253 clearly became leading lineages of newly emerging IE ethnolinguistic groups, Illyrian, Thracian and Germanic respectively.
At the same time earlier IE lineages began to dpeak non-IE languages.
So regardless of whether or not J-L283 came from the steppe, the currently sampled MBA individuals highly like spoke IE, most like Illyrian related dialects.
They were in company of Yamnaya and Bell Beaker lineages before already.
One interesting question is whether the bulk of Balkan R-Z2103 was leaning towards Illyrian, Thracian, or other like Greek and Paeonian for example.

Why would IE lineages be long gone?? Proto germanic i1 expanded much later than illyrians or thracians yet still carried some r1b

It is super obvious that z2103 gave illyrians and maybe thracians their european language

 

[Riverman]

Why would IE lineages be long gone?? Proto germanic i1 expanded much later than illyrians or thracians yet still carried some r1b
It is super obvious that z2103 gave illyrians and maybe thracians their european language

They started in a pretty similar time frame, all of them, in the EBA-MBA. In the LBA, they expanded. In the case of Proto-Germanic it was just one R1b lineage, R-U106 primarily and it expanded simply together with I-M253.
J-L283 seems to have been under the influence of Bell Beakers, Apennine and Tumulus culture, E-V13 under that of Epi-Corded, Nitra-Kostany-Eastern Unetice and Noua-Sabatinovka, which were all R1a dominated and related to Balto-Slavic and Iranians respectively.
R-Z2103 had a bigger role from Catacomb/MCW and into Greco-Armenians imho, but some splinters might have been in the Thracians too, especially in the South.

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

They started in a pretty similar time frame, all of them, in the EBA-MBA. In the LBA, they expanded. In the case of Proto-Germanic it was just one R1b lineage, R-U106 primarily and it expanded simply together with I-M253.
J-L283 seems to have been under the influence of Bell Beakers, Apennine and Tumulus culture, E-V13 under that of Epi-Corded, Nitra-Kostany-Eastern Unetice and Noua-Sabatinovka, which were all R1a dominated and related to Balto-Slavic and Iranians respectively.
R-Z2103 had a bigger role from Catacomb/MCW and into Greco-Armenians imho, but some splinters might have been in the Thracians too, especially in the South.

We have yet to see any evidence of this, wait for ancient dna

All we know so far is that z2103 is the main lineage of yamnaya. Once we get ancient dna from southern europe we will understand which cultures and tribes it influenced after moving out of russia

As for l283 it seems to be found exclusively without any r1b nor r1a alongside (we now have 10+ samples). You cant claim bell beaker influence without any genetic evidence - so far it looks like it either wiped out yamnaya z2103 or bell beaker r1b when settling in north western balkans initially - it looks more like a bell beaker enemy

 

[Riverman]

We have yet to see any evidence of this, wait for ancient dna
All we know so far is that z2103 is the main lineage of yamnaya. Once we get ancient dna from southern europe we will understand which cultures and tribes it influenced after moving out of russia
As for l283 it seems to be found exclusively without any r1b nor r1a alongside (we now have 10+ samples). You cant claim bell beaker influence without any genetic evidence - so far it looks like it either wiped out yamnaya z2103 or bell beaker r1b when settling in north western balkans initially - it looks more like a bell beaker enemy

The 3 cultures relevant for J-L283, Cetina, Istrien hill-fort culture and Posusje being all part of the Bell Beaker into Tumulus culture networks, and close ties to Italy, especially the Appennine culture.
The current ancient DNA points to these connections as well. The transitional zone was around Slovenia, South East of it J-L283 simply created its own sphere.
Just like E-V13 was in very close relationship to R1a groups (Nitra/Kostany), but got dominant from and South of the North Carpathians.
I-M253 same thing, just North of about Central Germany.
So all these initially minor or Non-IE haplogroups became leading lineages in a Bronze Age expansion-colonisation inspired from the Unetice/Epi-Corded and Bell Beaker/Tumulus culture groups.

We'll see whether J-L283 came from Italy-Alpine groups or just took over at the transitional zone.

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

The 3 cultures relevant for J-L283, Cetina, Istrien hill-fort culture and Posusje being all part of the Bell Beaker into Tumulus culture networks, and close ties to Italy, especially the Appennine culture.
The current ancient DNA points to these connections as well. The transitional zone was around Slovenia, South East of it J-L283 simply created its own sphere.
Just like E-V13 was in very close relationship to R1a groups (Nitra/Kostany), but got dominant from and South of the North Carpathians.
I-M253 same thing, just North of about Central Germany.
So all these initially minor or Non-IE haplogroups became leading lineages in a Bronze Age expansion-colonisation inspired from the Unetice/Epi-Corded and Bell Beaker/Tumulus culture groups.
We'll see whether J-L283 came from Italy-Alpine groups or just took over at the transitional zone.

In what way does the ancient dna point to this when all j2b l283 has been found without r1b or r1a alongside? If you are using autosomnal, some outliers will have more bell beaker dna due to mixing with their females after moving the bell beakers out of the area

 

[mount123]

In what way does the ancient dna point to this when all j2b l283 has been found without r1b or r1a alongside? If you are using autosomnal, some outliers will have more bell beaker dna due to mixing with their females after moving the bell beakers out of the area

I would advice you stop derailing the thread's topic with your repetitive non evidential posts. You have done this multiple times, it is enough now.

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

I would advice you stop derailing the thread's topic with your repetitive non evidential posts. You have done this multiple times, it is enough now.

What non evidential posts? Are you saying the l283's found in slovenia and croatia so far were found alongside r1bs?