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Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

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    Quote Originally Posted by DuPidh View Post
    Not Exactly! Greeks historians noted that Dorian's came from North. They spoke a dialect of Hellenic language. Dialects rise when some people switch from one language to another. Let say Sicilian dialect rose from switching from Sicilian language to Latin. That means Dorian's had probably spoken Albanian or some other pre-European language and switched to Hellenic. The Dorian dialect did not rise as a geographic seperation because historians wrote that Dorian came. When they did come to the area they had been Hellenized. They also developed they own version of art based on pre existing Greek ART.
    That's just not true. People don't stop linguistic evolution (which creates accents, then dialects, then finally separate sister languages) just because they've already been speaking that certain language as their mother tongue for many generations (or since basically "ever" as far as the history of their people goes). Dialects may be and often are influenced by subtrates, but not only is it not the main explanation for the later developments (post-linguistic shift with the adoption of other language as the native language of the new generations), it is also not a necessary nor sufficient condition for the appearance of distinct dialects. Actually, dialects may converge and diverge in a myriad of ways even if the interactions are basically among people who already speak the same language, because no language is a monolitic block without any variation, they - unless the language is spoken by a tiny community - naturally develop sociolects (class variation), dialects (regional) and even idiolects (individual variation) that interact with and influence each other and, besides all of that, also have their own internal evolution regardless of any external influence.

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    Mycenaean settlements before and during the Greek Dark Ages:
    https://www.ancient.eu/uploads/image...g?v=1485681109

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    The step component in the Mycenaeans probably came from the Multi-Cordoned Ware Culture.
    In c. 2000 – 1800 BCE bearers of this culture migrated southward into the Balkans.
    In the Balkans they probably mixed with the remnants of the Thessalian Neolithic and later on migrated to Greece.
    Those who remained behind, were known as Thracians.
    I suspect that some R1a-Z93, R1b-L23 and J2a had came from this Multi-Cordoned Ware Culture.

    As for the Dorians, they probably came from the Urnfield culture moving along the Adriatic sea all the way down to Greece.
    Illyrians also would have came from the same culture, together with the Dorians.
    I suspect that many E-V13's had came along this route with these two groups of people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    The step component in the Mycenaeans probably came from the Multi-Cordoned Ware Culture.
    In c. 2000 – 1800 BCE bearers of this culture migrated southward into the Balkans.
    In the Balkans they probably mixed with the remnants of the Thessalian Neolithic and later on migrated to Greece.
    Those who remained behind, were known as Thracians.
    I suspect that some R1a-Z93, R1b-L23 and J2a had came from this Multi-Cordoned Ware Culture.

    As for the Dorians, they probably came from the Urnfield culture moving along the Adriatic sea all the way down to Greece.
    Illyrians also would have came from the same culture, together with the Dorians.
    I suspect that many E-V13's had came along this route with these two groups of people.
    I do share your point for the Dorians, but for the Illyrians, I am not sure after reading this https://www.google.com/amp/s/at001.w...ns-epirus/amp/


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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    The step component in the Mycenaeans probably came from the Multi-Cordoned Ware Culture.
    In c. 2000 – 1800 BCE bearers of this culture migrated southward into the Balkans.
    In the Balkans they probably mixed with the remnants of the Thessalian Neolithic and later on migrated to Greece.
    Those who remained behind, were known as Thracians.
    I suspect that some R1a-Z93, R1b-L23 and J2a had came from this Multi-Cordoned Ware Culture.

    As for the Dorians, they probably came from the Urnfield culture moving along the Adriatic sea all the way down to Greece.
    Illyrians also would have came from the same culture, together with the Dorians.
    I suspect that many E-V13's had came along this route with these two groups of people.
    Highly unlikely that Corded Ware had anything to do with the Mycenaeans. Almost all of the R1a is of much more recent vintage, and Corded Ware was much more primitive.


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    (1) Iron is practically unknown to tile Mycenaeans; the Achaeans are familiar with it.

    (2) The dead in Homer are cremated; in Tiryns and Mycenae they are buried, implying a different conception of the afterlife.

    (3) The Achaean gods are the Olympians, of whom no trace has been found in the culture of Mycenae.

    (4) The Achaeans used long swords, round shields, and safety-pin brooches; no objects of such form appear in the varied Mycenaean remains.

    (5) There are considerable dissimilarities in coiffure and dress
    https://home.ubalt.edu/ntygfit/ai_01...4_achaeans.htm

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    (1) Iron is practically unknown to tile Mycenaeans; the Achaeans are familiar with it.

    (2) The dead in Homer are cremated; in Tiryns and Mycenae they are buried, implying a different conception of the afterlife.

    (3) The Achaean gods are the Olympians, of whom no trace has been found in the culture of Mycenae.

    (4) The Achaeans used long swords, round shields, and safety-pin brooches; no objects of such form appear in the varied Mycenaean remains.

    (5) There are considerable dissimilarities in coiffure and dress
    https://home.ubalt.edu/ntygfit/ai_01...4_achaeans.htm
    I'm not sure if all 5 points are correct but there are anachronisms in the texts because they were composed centuries after the Trojan War and written down even later.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    I'm not sure if all 5 points are correct but there are anachronisms in the texts because they were composed centuries after the Trojan War and written down even later.
    I don't know why this is such a difficult fact for some people to absorb. These texts are not history.

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    I am just doing an observation, here. No need to come up with conclusions.

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    I would be happy with 50 Myceanean samples. Lucky I am young enough to wait.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Hello everybody I'm etrusco from Lombardy ( sorry but I choose this name without thinking much because I'm a "cisalpine gaul" I should have made another choice but I post on Eurogenes and Populationgenomics as Old Europe and as etrusco on AG).
    I find very interesting the results from Mycenes also if you consider that they can be coupled with the findings from ( to be confermed for sure) of Hittites samples that lack completely steppe ancestry. Now we cross the fingers and wait for the tests that Reich is making on neolithic and bronze age Italy. If central and southern Italy will turn out to be Mycenean ( or anatolia like) we should change the narrative as for the explanation of IEzation of Southern europe and further for much of the centum languages since celtic according to many theories is born south of the alps too ( read Schrijvers).

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    Hello everybody I'm etrusco from Lombardy ( sorry but I choose this name without thinking much because I'm a "cisalpine gaul" I should have made another choice but I post on Eurogenes and Populationgenomics as Old Europe and as etrusco on AG).
    I find very interesting the results from Mycenes also if you consider that they can be coupled with the findings from ( to be confermed for sure) of Hittites samples that lack completely steppe ancestry. Now we cross the fingers and wait for the tests that Reich is making on neolithic and bronze age Italy. If central and southern Italy will turn out to be Mycenean ( or anatolia like) we should change the narrative as for the explanation of IEzation of Southern europe and further for much of the centum languages since celtic according to many theories is born south of the alps too ( read Schrijvers).

    Also Northern Italians can be modelled if they were partly Mycenaean. Mycenaean is only a mix of EEF, CHG and EHG.

    The Mycenaeans had contacts throughout Italy, from northern Italy, on the Adriatic coast, to the deep south of Italy. But they were never so numerous that they could have deeply affected the entire local populations.

    Mycenaeans are not Bronze Age Anatolia-like, Mycenaeans, just as the Minoans, descend primarily from the EEF, with successive differentiations, particularly in the Minoans who received a secondary migration of the Eastern Mediterranean type, and the Mycenaeans who have a bit of Steppe ancestry. The difference between many northern Italians and many central Italians is very small in terms of DNA, there is a continuum, because the cline is everywhere in Italy, even between the Alps and Emiia and Liguria, and the cline in Italy follows two directions, one north-south and the other west-east.

    Very unlikely that Celtic languages were born south of the Alps, although the Lepontic is among the oldest attested.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Also Northern Italians can be modelled if they were partly Mycenaean. Mycenaean is only a mix of EEF, CHG and EHG.

    The Mycenaeans had contacts throughout Italy, from northern Italy, on the Adriatic coast, to the deep south of Italy. But they were never so numerous that they could have deeply affected the entire local populations.

    Mycenaeans are not Bronze Age Anatolia-like, Mycenaeans, just as the Minoans, descend primarily from the EEF, with successive differentiations, particularly in the Minoans who received a secondary migration of the Eastern Mediterranean type, and the Mycenaeans who have a bit of Steppe ancestry. The difference between many northern Italians and many central Italians is very small in terms of DNA, there is a continuum, because the cline is everywhere in Italy, even between the Alps and Emiia and Liguria, and the cline in Italy follows two directions, one north-south and the other west-east.

    Very unlikely that Celtic languages were born south of the Alps, although the Lepontic is among the oldest attested.
    I don't know what you mean by a secondary dose of Eastern Mediterranean in Minoans. If you mean a more CHG heavy "farmer" dose, Mycenaeans carry it too, as well as, perhaps, 5% extra "Levantine"?. I'd have to go back and look more carefully, but I think the Minoans show a little steppe too. Greece has quite a cline as well, although not like Italy's.

    I do agree that Mycenaeans are not Bronze Age Anatolia like, and it's highly unlikely enough of them settled down in Italy to substantially affect the genetic make-up. It's more the case that peoples similar to those who formed the Mycenaeans also formed Italians to some degree. There's also the undoubtedly much more numerous migration of Greeks during their settlement of parts of southern Italy in the first millennium BC.

    Also, there is virtually no good evidence that the Celtic languages were born south of the Alps. My own personal view is that the "precursor" of the Celtic languages was in central Europe.

    @Etrusco,
    Even if you're 100% Lombard or Piemontese,I'm sure you know that you're not, of course, a Cisalpine Gaul.

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    I said central and southern italy ( bronze age) be like Myceneans in the sense that they will significantly lack steppe ancestry ( that is what I hope at least) because that will signify that historical italic speaking peoples will be outside of a direct origin from steppe.
    I've heard also of migrations of italic artisans and mercenaries in Mycene too. But maybe you know better.
    Also I would like to point out that the so called steppe ancestry in myceneans is derived not from a full fledged steppe culture but from Sintashta a culture that is a blending of EEF ( IIRC up to 40%) and steppe . So who really knows if the language sintashta speak was from the steppe component?


    Celtic from the po valley cannot be ruled out if you think that recent archeological discoveries and dating are telling us that the urnfield culture ( canegrate culture) in Northern italy is significantly earlier than urnfield north of the alps. I discovered a doctoral thesis that places the origin of urnfiled culture in the po valley itself. So a cultural and linguistical influence from the south is not impossible....
    Lepontic is THE OLDEST attested anyway.

    Angela....yes I would more correctly define myself as a remedellian......

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    Hello everybody I'm etrusco from Lombardy ( sorry but I choose this name without thinking much because I'm a "cisalpine gaul" I should have made another choice but I post on Eurogenes and Populationgenomics as Old Europe and as etrusco on AG).
    I find very interesting the results from Mycenes also if you consider that they can be coupled with the findings from ( to be confermed for sure) of Hittites samples that lack completely steppe ancestry. Now we cross the fingers and wait for the tests that Reich is making on neolithic and bronze age Italy. If central and southern Italy will turn out to be Mycenean ( or anatolia like) we should change the narrative as for the explanation of IEzation of Southern europe and further for much of the centum languages since celtic according to many theories is born south of the alps too ( read Schrijvers).
    https://wikivividly.com/wiki/Castellieri_culture
    North adriatic area had Mycenean influence and connections
    Castellieri culture also "merged" with cetina culture on the Dalmatian coast
    http://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/...a-Italiana%29/
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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    I said central and southern italy ( bronze age) be like Myceneans in the sense that they will significantly lack steppe ancestry ( that is what I hope at least) because that will signify that historical italic speaking peoples will be outside of a direct origin from steppe.
    I've heard also of migrations of italic artisans and mercenaries in Mycene too. But maybe you know better.
    Also I would like to point out that the so called steppe ancestry in myceneans is derived not from a full fledged steppe culture but from Sintashta a culture that is a blending of EEF ( IIRC up to 40%) and steppe . So who really knows if the language sintashta speak was from the steppe component?


    Celtic from the po valley cannot be ruled out if you think that recent archeological discoveries and dating are telling us that the urnfield culture ( canegrate culture) in Northern italy is significantly earlier than urnfield north of the alps. I discovered a doctoral thesis that places the origin of urnfiled culture in the po valley itself. So a cultural and linguistical influence from the south is not impossible....
    Lepontic is THE OLDEST attested anyway.

    Angela....yes I would more correctly define myself as a remedellian......
    Etrusco, I feel badly about disagreeing right off the bat with a new member, but you're not a "Remedellian" either. Like all Italians, like all peoples in Europe, you're a mixture of all the migrations that took place.

    None of us are clones of ancient peoples.


    If 100% of your ancestry is from Lombardia, for example, you have Neolithic farmer, "Italic", some first millennium BC "Celtic", some Langobard, and maybe some "Etruscan" whomever they were.

    If you haven't tested at someplace like 23andme, you should. You can then also use gedmatch to compare yourself to ancient sampes. Barring that, just look at results for the "Northern Italy" samples from Bergamo in something like the Dienekes runs. That will give you some idea.

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    thank you Sile for the informations...are you originally from Veneto

    Yes Angela I was just referring to a more ancient identity connected with a great culture of northern Italy ( with big implications also for Europe as a whole.....read Jeunesse papers). At the end I know I will turn out to be a blending of many cultures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    thank you Sile for the informations...are you originally from Veneto

    Yes Angela I was just referring to a more ancient identity connected with a great culture of northern Italy ( with big implications also for Europe as a whole.....read Jeunesse papers). At the end I know I will turn out to be a blending of many cultures.
    yes..many many centuries...the line is still there today

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    Canegrate culture originated north of the Alps, in the Urnfield RSFO group not vice versa. Previous popoulation practiced inhumation

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I don't know what you mean by a secondary dose of Eastern Mediterranean in Minoans. If you mean a more CHG heavy "farmer" dose, Mycenaeans carry it too, as well as, perhaps, 5% extra "Levantine"?. I'd have to go back and look more carefully, but I think the Minoans show a little steppe too. Greece has quite a cline as well, although not like Italy's.
    Because Minoans are not 100% EEF, so yes likely a CHG heavy extra input.


    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    I said central and southern italy ( bronze age) be like Myceneans in the sense that they will significantly lack steppe ancestry ( that is what I hope at least) because that will signify that historical italic speaking peoples will be outside of a direct origin from steppe.
    Italic speaking peoples are divided into two main branches: we do not even know if the linguistic split took place in Italy or outside of Italy.

    The vast majority of the IE speaking migrations were outside of a direct origin from steppe, simply because they happened much later.



    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    Celtic from the po valley cannot be ruled out if you think that recent archeological discoveries and dating are telling us that the urnfield culture ( canegrate culture) in Northern italy is significantly earlier than urnfield north of the alps. I discovered a doctoral thesis that places the origin of urnfiled culture in the po valley itself. So a cultural and linguistical influence from the south is not impossible....

    So Celtic language was born in Lombardy, Urnfield culture was born in Lombardy. C'mon.

    Canegrate is basically Scamozzina (Ligurian-like culture) + migrations from the Urnfield culture turning Canegrate into an Urnfield culture.

    Urnfield culture is the follower of the Tumulus culture derived from the Unetice culture. Both Tumulus and Unetice are clearly originated in Central Europe.


    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    Lepontic is THE OLDEST attested anyway.

    Lepontic is the oldest attested, a different thing from the oldest.

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    PAX AUGUSTA

    That was the theory until recent ( urnfield from the north in the po valley) but recent research are pointing of canegrate being older than RFSO...also cremation in northern italy is older.......see
    MARCO BAIONI: 3rd millennium BC ritual and burial practice in Lombardy on academia.eu ( it refers to the civate group whose practice you can find also in Rocca di Manerba)...but there's more...... cremation in copper age Italy was also in the south ......take a look:
    GIORGIA APRILE ( on academia.eu): The copper age mound necropolis in Salve Lecce Italy: radiocarbon dating result on charcoals, cremated bones and pottery
    If it was present in the north and south it means we can find it very likely also in the Rinaldone group ( Salve obviously is Gaudo culture)
    Schrijver is a very talented linguist... he knows what is saying and he thinks celtic languages likely from south of the alps....

    The thesis I was referring to is this: you can find it online

    Author : Giacomo Capuzzo
    Title: Space-temporal analysis of radiocarbon evidence and associated archeological record: from Danube to Ebro rivers and from bronze to iron age

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    I find very interesting the results from Mycenes also if you consider that they can be coupled with the findings from ( to be confermed for sure) of Hittites samples that lack completely steppe ancestry. Now we cross the fingers and wait for the tests that Reich is making on neolithic and bronze age Italy. If central and southern Italy will turn out to be Mycenean ( or anatolia like) we should change the narrative as for the explanation of IEzation of Southern europe and further for much of the centum languages since celtic according to many theories is born south of the alps too ( read Schrijvers).
    Reich is clearly considering that possibility as well, so we're in good hands in terms of finding out what happened, even Bell Beaker R1b might have come from Anatolia through Italy to central Europe, where it mixed with local Corded Ware to get most of it's Steppe component.

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    In North Eastern Italy (1500 BC Lake dwellers around Garda and Terramare) is older than Central Europe not in the North West. Sporadically cremation was present everywhere but the precise ritual that we see in the Bronze Age originated in the Pannonian plain.

    https://youtu.be/Wd0UL9HTItk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    Canegrate culture originated north of the Alps, in the Urnfield RSFO group not vice versa. Previous popoulation practiced inhumation

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    Canegrate from Urnfield RSFO group (Rhenish-Swiss group). This is a possible differentiazion with the Proto-Villanovans who could have arrived from the Middle-Danube Urnfield culture.

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    Yes, Urnfields of the Rhine region were likely Proto-Celts.

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