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Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pratt View Post
    Crete Armenoi is more southeastern than Tuscans (Tuscans are a western version of Greek_Thessaloniki in Lazaridis' PCA). Crete Armenoi is closer to modern Greeks, or just intermediate between Greek_Thessaloniki and Sicilians. Anyway, Lazaridis has said that Crete Armenoi is a low quality sample, can't be labelled Minoan or Mycenaean.
    There is a trend though. Since it is post Mycenean it may be closer to classical era Greeks and it has more Northern admixture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    There is a trend though. Since it is post Mycenean it may be closer to classical era Greeks and it has more Northern admixture.
    For sure it has more Northern admixture.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    There is a trend though. Since it is post Mycenean it may be closer to classical era Greeks and it has more Northern admixture.
    There's a trend only if more ancient dna shows she wasn't an anomaly.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Pratt View Post
    Has anyone already uploaded Minoans and Mycenaeans on GEDmatch?




    Crete Armenoi is more southeastern than Tuscans (Tuscans are a western version of Greek_Thessaloniki in Lazaridis' PCA). Crete Armenoi is closer to modern Greeks, or just intermediate between Greek_Thessaloniki and Sicilians. Anyway, Lazaridis has said that Crete Armenoi is a low quality sample, can't be labelled Minoan or Mycenaean.


    Thank you Pratt. Do you know where this tweet appeared?

    It's nitpicking, but I think some Tuscans are north of Thessaloniki, as well as west.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Thank you Pratt. Do you know where this tweet appeared?
    It originally appeared on Lazaridis' twitter account as a reply to @PreznitCamacho, @PaIeodeadlift and other two.

    https://twitter.com/iosif_lazaridis/...31776372498434

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It's nitpicking, but I think some Tuscans are north of Thessaloniki, as well as west.
    Yes, Northwest I think.

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    Originally Posted by Fire Haired14
    Stone Henge and the Minoan civilization were created by very close relatives, mind blowing. Both were 70-80% EEF.

    Another interesting thing is both the Minoans and the Egyptians were indigenous to their separate regions. Egyptians mostly Levant_Neo, Minoans mostly Anatolia_Neo. Both were indigenous, descended from the primitive stone age people that lived in their regions 1,000s of years earlier.

    Papadimitriou;516246]I had said that the megalithic European passage tombs and the 'tomb of Agamemnon' are conceptually similar.[/QUOTE]

    Yes, both very good observations. That hadn't immediately occurred to me.

    People need to get over it, already.

    Ancient Greeks weren't Nordic, they weren't Corded Ware (or Slavic) or anything similar. (I don't get the point of the pictures of Brad Pitt btw. What's the difference before and after?)

    Ancient Egyptians weren't SSA either.

    These kinds of agendas don't belong in discussions of population genetics.

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    Pratt, you're right of course but it seems to be closest to Tuscans and mainland Greeks of all populations on a PCA but with some differences to both. David of Eurogenes made one with non-projected samples:

    The Armenoi sample seems to be shifted towards the direction of various Beaker and Corded samples relative to the Mycenaean cluster.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Originally Posted by Fire Haired14
    Stone Henge and the Minoan civilization were created by very close relatives, mind blowing. Both were 70-80% EEF.

    Another interesting thing is both the Minoans and the Egyptians were indigenous to their separate regions. Egyptians mostly Levant_Neo, Minoans mostly Anatolia_Neo. Both were indigenous, descended from the primitive stone age people that lived in their regions 1,000s of years earlier.

    Papadimitriou;516246]I had said that the megalithic European passage tombs and the 'tomb of Agamemnon' are conceptually similar.
    Yes, both very good observations. That hadn't immediately occurred to me.

    People need to get over it, already.

    Ancient Greeks weren't Nordic, they weren't Corded Ware (or Slavic) or anything similar. (I don't get the point of the pictures of Brad Pitt btw. What's the difference before and after?)

    Ancient Egyptians weren't SSA either.

    These kinds of agendas don't belong in discussions of population genetics.[/QUOTE]

    Brad Pit is injured by an arrow in the second one.....


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    The Armenoi sample is from a site dated to 1390-1190 BCE, close to the time of the Bronze Age Collapse.


    Page 22 of the Supplement...
    https://images.nature.com/full/natur...re23310-s1.pdf

    The specific sample is dated to 1370 to 1340 BC.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Ancient Greeks weren't Nordic (or Slavic), they weren't Corded Ware or anything similar. (I don't get the point of the pictures of Brad Pitt btw. What's the difference before and after.)
    First gif tried to portray the smug fantasy of those who project nordic/slavic on to ancient greek ruling classes via "steppe'ing" them.

    Second gif is Brad Pitt's portrayal of Achilles being pierced with an arrow, i.e. the march of science annihilating the nordicist fantasy and simplification of world history.

    On a meta level, the movie Troy(2004) was full of this type of stuff so I felt it extra appropriate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    First gif tried to portray the smug fantasy of those who project nordic/slavic on to ancient greek ruling classes via "steppe'ing" them.

    Second gif is Brad Pitt's portrayal of Achilles being pierced with an arrow, i.e. the march of science annihilating the nordicist fantasy and simplification of world history.

    On a meta level, the movie Troy(2004) was full of this type of stuff so I felt it extra appropriate.
    Ah, now I get it. :)

    That movie was an abomination in terms of historicity on numerous levels, and even Brad Pitt's body couldn't save it for me, and it's a very nice body indeed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Ah, now I get it. :)

    That movie was an abomination in terms of historicity on numerous levels, and Brad Pitt's body couldn't save it.
    300 was more accurate, in terms of historicity, even with persian depicted orcs ;)

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    Yes, both very good observations. That hadn't immediately occurred to me.

    People need to get over it, already.

    Ancient Greeks weren't Nordic, they weren't Corded Ware (or Slavic) or anything similar. (I don't get the point of the pictures of Brad Pitt btw. What's the difference before and after?)

    Ancient Egyptians weren't SSA either.

    These kinds of agendas don't belong in discussions of population genetics.
    Thus far we have seen:

    Lebanese largely share a genetic continuity with Canaanites.

    Britons largely shared a genetic continuity with Celts during the Roman Period. Genetics in England changed with the arrival and admixture with groups like the the Anglo-Saxons, and Normans. While the Romans and Vikings only left a marginal genetic impact.

    Modern Greeks largely share a genetic continuity with the Mycenaean and Minoans. Moreover, Cyprus, Albania, Sicily, and Southern Italy have similar genetic continuity.

    Egyptians retained their genetic continuity throughout the Roman Period. The shift towards more Yoruba admixture occurred during the Middle Ages.

    So far it seems to me that the Roman Empire didn’t have a huge impact on changing the genetics of many places it occupied.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Cultural and technological transmission can occur without genetic transmission.
    Chariots and sword making technology can be sold and reverse engineered to the ruling classes of other societies, yeah?

    David Reich makes this point at the 32 minute mark of this video. He uses the spread of beakers among heterogenous populations to
    demonstrate that people copy each others ideas:

    yes, but there was also a language switch
    Minoan language is not deciphered yet, because it is not related to Greek/proto-Greek

    whatever transmission there was and how it occured, it left a very deep impact

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    yes, but there was also a language switch
    Minoan language is not deciphered yet, because it is not related to Greek/proto-Greek

    whatever transmission there was and how it occured, it left a very deep impact
    That what they thought about Linear B before it got translated.

    Just because Linear A hasnt translated yet, doesnt mean that it is foreign.

    You logically leap, making identical mistakes of past researchers about Linear B

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    I feel good for some reason :) Congratulations to all who predicted the Y-haplogroups before, very well done.

    What can these results tell us about the origin of some of the Minoans social and religious practices like bull leaping and the goddesses they shared with the Indus Valley Civilisation? We had this discussion before, and it didn't help that there was no proof of the Minoans "eastern" ancestry, until now.

    The component that these two ancient populations shared was the Iran Neolithic/CHG like admixture, and so we can theorize for the existence of a "proto culture" for an expanding people, very much like the Proto Indo-Europeans, migrating east, west, and north, from that part of the world.

    The migration east was in my opinion, with the advance of agriculture, based on the age of the J2 lineages of South Asia, they seem to be older than the subclades that migrated west, which date to the beginning of the Bronze Age. If we were to assume the existence of this ancestral "proto-culture" then can we predict that their languages were also related? of course, we don't know anything about both languages and it may have been the language of the locals, with no language replacement.
    and what culture could this proto-culture be that predates both Minoan and Indus Valley?
    can you identify such culture with bull-leaping and godesses?
    if I recall well, there are some speculations about Elamite and Dravidian languages ..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Thus far we have seen:

    Lebanese largely share a genetic continuity with Canaanites.

    Britons largely shared a genetic continuity with Celts during the Roman Period. Population in England changed with the arrival of groups like the the Anglo-Saxons, and Normans. While the Romans and Vikings only left a marginal genetic impact.

    Modern Greeks largely share a genetic continuity with the Mycenaean and Minoans. Moreover, Cyprus, Albania, Sicily, and Southern Italy have similar genetic continuity.

    Egyptians retained their genetic continuity throughout the Roman Period. The shift towards more Yoruba admixture occurred during the Middle Ages.

    So far it seems to me that the Roman Empire didn’t have a huge impact on changing the genetics of many places it occupied.
    I would agree with that, except that we don't have ancient dna from Sicily or Southern Italy or Albania for that matter. We'll see about those.

    The Romans didn't want to move out of Italy it seems to me. They had no interest in living in Britain by and large, or along the Danube. Spain, and certainly southern France were probably different. They certainly liked Southern Italy. Two thousand years later, I was the same. I didn't want to move either, and I'm still going back someday, at least for half the year even after all my time here. I might even settle in the south. The north is changing too fast. :)

    Seriously, what the Romans did was conquer. Then they instituted a process of Romanization, whereby they co-opted the local elites. Let us have our monopolies, of which you'll get your share, pay your taxes, use Latin for official business, and you can keep your local tongues (didn't last, btw, but it wasn't because the Romans mandated it, just the natural way of things), your local customs, and even your local gods, as long as you pay homage to the god of the Roman state to show your ultimate fealty to Rome.

    By the time that Rome fell, there were people who identified as "Romans" in England, Gaul, Spain, even Greece, who weren't Roman at all genetically.

    Now, soldiers from the Empire did go to far away places, take common law wives, and stay, or not, after their decades long service was over. However, in most places their dna was only a trickle, tinkering with the edges of the total genome of these places.

    As I've said ad nauseam, big genetic change comes from significant folk migrations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Now, soldiers from the Empire did go to far away places, take common law wives, and stay, or not, after their decades long service was over. However, in most places their dna was only a trickle, tinkering with the edges of the total genome of these places.
    This site is a good resource. Its a "Digital Atlas of the Roman Empire"
    http://dare.ht.lu.se/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Indeed. Chariots spread all the way to Egypt very quickly as these things go. Did they have lots of steppe ancestry too? Anyone who hasn't read the Egyptian ancient dna paper shouldn't answer. :)
    do you have a date for the 1st Egyptian charriots?
    IMO the Mittanni were the 1st to spread charriots in the Levantine and Anatolian area, and the technical vocabulary they used was borrowed from Indic language
    the Mittanni empire was built upon being the 1st with charriots in the area
    it was from the Mittanni that the Egyptians and the Hittites copied charriots, which led to the downfall of the same Mittanni empire
    even the early Hittites didn't have charriots - at least there is no proof of that, but a lot has been speculated by Orientalists
    the Mittanni postdate the Myceaneans and they also postdate the BMAC downfall which IMO the most likely caused by Indic people related to those that introduced the charriot into the Mittanni court
    it is very unlikely though that the Mittanni themselves spoke an Indic language and I also suspect that the genetic impact of those few Indic people into the Mittanni was very significant
    with the Myceneans a language shift along with the introduction of swords and charriots (only as ceremonial status symbol) is likely - I don't think those neolithic Greeks spoke an IE language and neither did the Minoans
    I am aware that there is a lot of speculation here but that seems the most plausible explanation to me

    check this : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kikkuli

    Kikkuli was the Hurrian "master horse trainer" (assussanni, virtually Sanskrit aśva-sana-) of the land Mitanni" (A-AŠ-ŠU-UŠ-ŠA-AN-NI ŠA KUR URUMI-IT-TA-AN-NI) and author of a chariothorse training text written in the Hittite language, dating to the Hittite New Kingdom (around 1400 BCE). The text is notable both for the information it provides about the development of Indo-European languages and for its content.

    he was Hurrian, but the technical vocabulary he used to introduce chariothorse training was Indic
    the proper training of horses for battle may have been more dificult than the actual construction techniques to build the chariots

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leandros View Post
    300 was more accurate, in terms of historicity, even with persian depicted orcs ;)
    More accurate for Greeks. (Except for Michael Fassbender: I like him a lot, but ancient Greek?) Of course, they had to darken Gerard Butler's hair, eyes, skin, and probably fiddle with his nose. They couldn't find a Southern European descended actor to bulk up like that? Whatever...

    They took, as you imply, a lot of license with the Persians. Some of the troops were also decidedly Middle Eastern looking to me, all those black robes etc. Not that the Persians wouldn't have had a lot of troops from all over their Empire, but there was a lot of signalling going on.


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    The modern PCA:




    Then take a look at the PCAs in this section:
    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...23310_SF5.html

    Extended Data Figure 5: Correspondence of qpAdm estimates with PCA.




    This is just one of the graphics:
    Attachment 8999

    Click to enlarge.

    Perhaps someone handier than I am at this can upload all of them in larger size.

    If I'm mistaken, correct me, but the Mycenaeans are smack in the middle of the modern Sicilians, yes? I guess some people haven't read the whole paper yet.

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    @Maciamo

    Maciamo ti si clear that Doris=ans never inveded Greece,
    the one who invade are the Myceneans,

    Lazarides just certified Triantafylides,
    and allows the open space of Giannopoulos.

    the I1 in Greece I doupt it is Germanic,
    All genetists in Greece found and are certain that is paliolithic,
    Sarakatsans are heavily in I1 and are consider the pre-glacial population of Greece.
    in fact at all the palaiolithic congresses that is discussed,
    and there is also one Y-Dna that is still kept in a kind of fog.
    But I1 of Sarakatsans is considered the most ancient not only in Greece but in a wider area,

    So indeed as Lazarides certified Triantafyllides then we have 11% paleolithic
    59% post Glacial
    20% Neolithic farmers
    only 10 % of we call IE (Yamnaa etc)

    on the other hand Giannopoulos believed that Descent Of Myceneans (NOTICE MYCENEANS NOT DORIANS as belived at 1928)
    was a massive Huge devastation of IE from Vucedol/Vucocar/Vatin who came from Yamnaa and Steppe.
    But it seems that Lazarides measures the same % that Triantafyllides claim
    the 7-13% of Myceneans is From Vucedol or ProtoCetina,
    so I think Lazrides results just certifies and unites the previous olders Triantafyllides and Giannopoulos,

    in fact the question now is could 7-10-13% of Vucedol change the language to IE?
    or the neolithic 20%, or ...?

    the numbers of Lazarides simply certify the previous works done,
    and give result in balance with older searches.

    I agree that more Mycenean,
    as also Thessalian and Makedonian Neolithic and Bronze age would give better results,
    but not in very long from these,

    as for North Greece
    N Greece was Half NW Greeks and Half Thracians.
    N Greece ones run out of men who moved by Alexander
    N Greece was raided and habitetd by SLavs and enough mark of them is still here.
    Gauls entered Greece but moved to North to end at Galateia,
    the Gaulish remnants, especially in Kutsuk Vlachs are from Roman legions and Roman citizens.
    The EXTRA SLAVIC mark is cause some Vlachs are from Slavic descent (Antes Romanised Slavs)

    considering that Makedonia which is main body of N Greece,
    was the land of heaven for Aromani Epirotans and Greeks of Balkans (Bulgaria Romania Albania Serbo-Croatia Istria Austria Hungary Alexandreia France Russia)
    after 1860,
    and the favorite tactic of Ottoman to break omogenous population was to devaste other populations,
    that gives a strong change amore than 25% to be different and more North East and Central European.

    as for mtDNA X2.
    I am that rare mtDNA
    but it is possible in Greece to be X2 than to be U,
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

  23. #123
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The modern PCA:




    Then take a look at the PCAs in this section:
    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...23310_SF5.html

    Extended Data Figure 5: Correspondence of qpAdm estimates with PCA.


    Perhaps someone handier than I am at this can upload all of them in larger size.

    If I'm mistaken, correct me, but the Mycenaeans are smack in the middle of the modern Sicilians, yes? I guess some people haven't read the whole paper yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Thank-you.

    Listen, I'd love to find that the Myceneaens cluster with my half quasi-Tuscan/Ligurian) maternal side, but I don't think they're near us.

    I've had to come to grips with ancient dna too. My father had me convinced when I was young that we were pure Romans and Etruscans. Those Celts were chased back to central Europe and the Germans were limited to benighted areas of the north-east.

    You adjust. I'm still Italian.

    Other people are going to have to adjust too, not to mention that someone who derives so much of his or her sense of self-worth from ancient migrations 5,000 years ago has a serious psychological and emotional problem imo.

    @Yetos,

    You're absolutely dead wrong, and particularly about this:
    So indeed as Lazarides certified Triantafyllides then we have 11% paleolithic
    59% post Glacial
    20% Neolithic farmers
    only 10 % of we call IE (Yamnaa etc)

    Please read the paper, ok?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    More recently I suggested that they also carried E-V13 and J2b lineages and that they may have been related to the Illyrians who invaded the Balkans around the same time.
    Which "J2b" do you mean?
    J2b2a-L283 found in Bronze Age Dalmatia, or J2b1-M205 found multiple times in Bronze Age Levant? Keep also in mind they split from each other ca. 15,900 ybp, so it's almost like lumping all R1a and R1b into "R1".

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