More on the Tollensee Valley battle site inc. genetics

I know, but not so bad if everybody recognises two armies, and the paper set goodly the neolithic sample in a neolithic DNA environment... by the way bad quality affecting only teal? you can try to count how many chances per million are for it.
 
berun said:
I know, but not so bad if everybody recognises two armies, and the paper set goodly the neolithic sample in a neolithic DNA environment... by the way bad quality affecting only teal? you can try to count how many chances per million are for it.
Click to expand...
Statistically, it skips smaller admixtures more than bigger ones. For example, if teal is 5% of DNA but only10% of genome is recovered from these ancient guys, it has bigger chance than not, not to have the teal in it, or sub 0.5% and not going to show much on the graph.
 
LeBrok said:
Statistically, it skips smaller admixtures more than bigger ones. For example, if teal is 5% of DNA but only10% of genome is recovered from these ancient guys, it has bigger chance than not, not to have the teal in it, or sub 0.5% and not going to show much on the graph.
Click to expand...
I don't know how much of the genomes they recovered, but 10 % would be enough, that would be 300 million pairs.
But I guess they have less.
If I understand well, what they present now are only preliminary results, based on novel techniques.
I hope they'll come up with more later.
And afaik they are still digging on the site.
 
LeBrok said:
Statistically, it skips smaller admixtures more than bigger ones. For example, if teal is 5% of DNA but only10% of genome is recovered from these ancient guys, it has bigger chance than not, not to have the teal in it, or sub 0.5% and not going to show much on the graph.
Click to expand...
If DNA is damaged percents could be keept almost the same, percents don't rely on rough quantities but on relation of quantities... by the way it's quite absurd, take this imaginary exemple, in USA there are 15 cities with 2 million inhabitants being a 5% black american, North Korea bombs all such cities killing 90% of the population, and only in 3 cities the Black Americans survive, it wouldn't be sound?
 
bicicleur said:
I don't know how much of the genomes they recovered, but 10 % would be enough, that would be 300 million pairs.
But I guess they have less.
If I understand well, what they present now are only preliminary results, based on novel techniques.
I hope they'll come up with more later.
And afaik they are still digging on the site.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure, it was just hypothetical examples. Possibly they have much less, so low that it brings "statistical instabilities".
 
berun said:
If DNA is damaged percents could be keept almost the same, percents don't rely on rough quantities but on relation of quantities... by the way it's quite absurd, take this imaginary exemple, in USA there are 15 cities with 2 million inhabitants being a 5% black american, North Korea bombs all such cities killing 90% of the population, and only in 3 cities the Black Americans survive, it wouldn't be sound?
Click to expand...
Have it your way, and instead seeing unreliable samples making faulty readings, you see them as a good proof of "conspiracy of steppe invasion".
 
where I said steppe in this thread? you are guessing about my thinking but you fail
 
I made my first ADMIXTURE run ever... Modern and ancient samples from Tollense study, without few outliers.
Code: 
Altai Altai
Chimp Chimp
Denisovan Denisova
MezE MezE
Vi_merge Vi_merge
Mbuti.DG S_Mbuti-2
Mbuti.DG S_Mbuti-1
Mbuti.DG S_Mbuti-3
Mota mota
Ust_Ishim Ust_Ishim
Clovis Anzick
hg19ref Href
Kennewick kennewick
Kostenki14 Kostenki14
MA1 MA1
AG2 AG2

It is K=7 run. PC1 is WHG/SHG component clearly. Only PC5 is hard to describe.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1lUPAg5sOwNirxGmGLYGiNTLBsg_fj4rEyL5pYRaTkjM/edit?usp=sharing

Among moderns we have first Finns, than Kargopol Russian, then Poles.

PopIDpc1
SHGI00120.999940
SHGI00130.999940
SHGI00140.999940
SHGI00150.999940
SHGI00170.999940
Switzerland_HGBichon0.999940
WHGI05850.999940
WHGI15070.999940
SHGI00110.999935
WHGLoschbour0.659030
EHGI02110.401437
EHGI01240.323709
EHGI00610.317327
WEZWEZ580.260612
WEZWEZ630.245046
Europe_LNBARISE4790.242848
WEZWEZ590.230516
WEZWEZ830.228483
WEZWEZ150.226258
WEZWEZ710.220320
WEZWEZ240.218805
Europe_LNBAI15020.217195
Steppe_EneolithicI04330.205120
Steppe_EneolithicI01220.200773
WEZWEZ610.188813
WEZWEZ400.186621
WEZWEZ770.178748
WEZWEZ740.174627
Europe_LNBARISE3710.171417
WEZWEZ64-10.169515
WEZWEZ560.168114
WEZWEZ480.163429
WEZWEZ510.151123
WEZWEZ390.146486
finnishFinnish20.141444
finnishFIN0020.141235
Europe_LNBAI15040.140552
finnishFinnish10.139796
finnishFIN0010.138663
Unetice_EBAI08040.138568
WEZWEZ160.135605
russianHGDP009030.134682
Europe_ENI14990.132474
russianHGDP008810.132012
russianHGDP008820.131986
russianHGDP008980.129098
WEZWEZ530.127044
WEZWEZ35-20.126865
russianHGDP008950.126131
polishPolish20.124640
russianHGDP008830.124156
Europe_MNChLI05600.121844
russianHGDP008850.120691
russianHGDP009010.120451
russianHGDP008860.120210
russianHGDP008920.119975
polishPolish80.118276
russianHGDP008910.117579
russianHGDP009020.117569
russianHGDP008840.117416
polishPolish50.117117

WEZ16 has on the contrary 51% of Euro Neolithic (pc7) component (check spreadsheet and sort columns).
 
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I think we already have enough DNA to evit a too big distorsion in respective proportions; that said individuals in Tollense show great differences within the sample. A part could be put on the account of poor DNA sample, but that said, as a whole, even arbitrary (or not) grouped together, the mean group show even in Genetiker higher %s of WHG AND EEF than preceding CHL and BA cultures of the area, the ones with apparently high level of Steppics. So the lower level or absence of CHGlike is not a too big surprise and is surely not only a statistical accident. Genetiker founds more EHGlike (dark blue) than the survey; I have no element nor knowledge to discuss it. What pop could explain this: a less steppic one, more "autochtonous", with an EEF pop lixed with HG's; the possible excess of EHGlike could be, exageration or not of Genetiker, due to a rather Northern HG's pop, kind of SHG, maybe rich in Y-I2a2 and Y-I1. Y haplos could help here, for sure. I suppose the pre-IE or at least pre-Steppics pops of Central Europe at these times had seen a continual increase in HG's auDNA at the cost of Farmers DNA, but here we maybe have a more southern one (more Y-I2a2 + Y-?) but also more EEF, more WHG, kind of proto-Lusacian input, and a more northern one, more SHGlike, (more Y-I1 + Y-?) with less EEF; all the way, these two pops could have been close enough in means, and not descendants of Steppics nomads? spite it seems weird at those times. The more northern one could be the remnants of East TRBK people??? and incorporated, later, in the Germanics genesis. Their apparent lack of CHG seem discarding direct demic link with post-Unetice.
All that is very fragile, it's true. Guessing and no more to date.
 
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