More on the Tollensee Valley battle site inc. genetics

WEZ kits on Gedmatch, K36 values

wez.jpg

Wow, the first guy is quite Iberian (WEZ16)
 


No. Early Slavs were an Iron Age society, not Bronze Age. They had iron-made weapons.

I didn't say that Early Slavs were a bronze age society, I said that the Early Slavs were more primitive than the Bronze age cultures that preceded them. Being from the Iron Age doesn't necessarily make them more advanced either since it is only a single facet of a society and Iron tools only becomes more useful over bronze when you are able to make it into steel. Don't take my word for it though, head down over to your nearest museum and see it with your own eyes. The pottery made by the Bronze age people was decorated with unique patterns while the Slavic pottery lacks any artistic features and looks very crude. In fact the Slavic pottery looks ten thousand years older despite being a couple thousand years more recent. The abodes of Bronze age people were also much larger and more sophisticated with the great fortifications built by Bronze age peoples not being replicated by the Slavs until around the 9th century AD. I don't believe these statements are controversial either, but well known by those in the community. If Slavs are indeed directly descended from these groups there must have been some kind of awful catastrophe where their material culture was not just inhibited, but reversed to significant degree, similar to the state of western Europe after the fall of Rome or Greece after the Dorian invasion.
 
WEZ kits on Gedmatch, K36 values

wez.jpg
Thanks for posting them. :) Are the red/bold and normal kit numbers meaning two groups of people? Classified according to isotope level? Or supposed West/East division?
 
Following the Celtic thread the Urnfield/Lusatian culture gave way to the Puchov culture

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Púchov_culture

in its area the Romans found the Celtic Cotini in actual Ruthenia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotini

just a typical case where mountains keep ancient languages, as by Julius' times these Celts were surrounded by Germanic tribes. If equating Urnfield / Lusatian with Celtic... the Slavs would be the third team in Poland and Belarus after Germanics.

Quite awesome the expansion of Celts, from Galicia to Ruthenia, from Scotland to Andalusia, but now in few dying enclaves.
 
Thanks for posting them. :) Are the red/bold and normal kit numbers meaning two groups of people? Classified according to isotope level? Or supposed West/East division?
No:) Simply some were copied by me directly after upload so the font was red in Gedmatch. I should change it I know.
 
No:) Simply some were copied by me directly after upload so the font was red in Gedmatch. I should change it I know.
Ok. Do you know which samples could potentially belong to different groups of warriors according to strontium and lead level?
 
It was not slavic/germanic war, neither north/south war.

I have run 20 samples of Wez group through GedMatch today. All samples turned to be of very low quality. There is not even one decent to make sure what we are exactly looking at. In such instance we are getting "false positive" readings. It means that a sample can "pretend" to be something else. In this case the genetic material could have belonged to one ethnic group, but the readings place them all over northern Europe. We could deal with brother's DNA, or people born in one village, who died in this battle, but with such limited genetic material, one now plots like "slavic" and the other "germanic". This is how crazy it is when we are dealing with small pieces of DNA.

Anyway, the best thing to do with so many bad samples is to add them together to build one average individual, or two if this battle was among different "races".
I divided samples in 2 groups. One with lowest level of strontium and the other with highest. About 6 samples each group. Well, they were almost the same. Maybe growing up 100 km apart, to accommodate for a different strontium level, but still belonging to same ethnic group.

High Strontium Low Strontium
Germany, Tollensee ValleyLBA, 1.25kyaGermany, Tollensee ValleyLBA, 1.25kya
Run time2.52 Run time2.67
S-Indian 1 S-Indian1
Baloch 2 Baloch4
Caucasian 6 Caucasian9
NE-Euro 56 NE-Euro53
SE-Asian 0 SE-Asian0
Siberian 1 Siberian0
NE-Asian 0 NE-Asian0
Papuan 1 Papuan0
American 0 American1
Beringian 0 Beringian0
Mediterranean 29 Mediterranean29
SW-Asian 2 SW-Asian1
San 0 San1
E-African 0 E-African0
Pygmy 0 Pygmy0
W-African 1 W-African1

Taking under consideration low quality of samples and only 6 in each group, we are dealing with same ethnic group individuals.
 
Here is the average individual composed of 20 low quality samples. Beside are samples from CW, Unetice, medieval Slav, modern german and polish. I think the BA average guy is the closest to modern Northern German and somewhat close to modern Pole and medieval Slav, though it was most likely a population, which doesn't exist anymore. We can see at this time period evolution of CW/Unetice type of genome towards more modern one of this region. It was probably a population who started like Unetice and mixed with more southern type, like BA Baden. Who knows, maybe already some Celtic influence mixed in at this time?

AverageWezM107790I0118 M453254Rise154 T253390I0806 Rib-DF27F999954Rise569 T005824Sunghir6
Germany, Tollensee ValleyLBA, 1.25kyaGermany LNCW like Unetice EBA K1a4a1 -3.9kya Germany, Quedlinburg2431-2150BC Bell BeakerCzechy, Brandysek1,400 ya Russia, 200 km NE from Moscow1040-1220 AD, Slav
Run time 2.63Run time11.67 Run Time4.06 Run time4.05 Run time9.14 Run time13.62 Modern North GermanModern Polish
S-Indian 1S-Indian1 S-Indian- S-Indian- S-Indian- S-Indian- S-Indian0 S-Indian1
Baloch 4Baloch12 Baloch14 Baloch13 Baloch7 Baloch7 Baloch9 Baloch7
Caucasian 7Caucasian7 Caucasian4 Caucasian9 Caucasian8 Caucasian11 Caucasian8 Caucasian10
NE-Euro 54NE-Euro49 NE-Euro54 NE-Euro50 NE-Euro58 NE-Euro57 NE-Euro53 NE-Euro57
SE-Asian 0SE-Asian- SE-Asian- SE-Asian- SE-Asian- SE-Asian- SE-Asian0 SE-Asian0
Siberian 1Siberian- Siberian- Siberian- Siberian- Siberian1 Siberian0 Siberian1
NE-Asian 0NE-Asian- NE-Asian- NE-Asian- NE-Asian- NE-Asian- NE-Asian0 NE-Asian0
Papuan 0Papuan- Papuan- Papuan- Papuan- Papuan- Papuan0 Papuan0
American 0American- American1 American- American- American0 American1 American1
Beringian 0Beringian- Beringian- Beringian- Beringian- Beringian2 Beringian0 Beringian0
Mediterranean 29Mediterranean30 Mediterranean27 Mediterranean27 Mediterranean26 Mediterranean22 Mediterranean27 Mediterranean22
SW-Asian 1SW-Asian- SW-Asian- SW-Asian- SW-Asian- SW-Asian- SW-Asian1 SW-Asian1
San 0San- San- San- San- San- San0 San0
E-African 0E-African- E-African0 E-African- E-African- E-African- E-African0 E-African0
Pygmy 0Pygmy- Pygmy- Pygmy- Pygmy- Pygmy- Pygmy0 Pygmy0
W-African 1W-African0 W-African- W-African0 W-African0 W-African0 W-African0 W-African0
 
Excellent, LeBrok,

This is exactly the type of analysis which was needed.
 
WEZ16 is clearly identified as an outlier as he "realy" was, he was a LBK buried on the site a millenia before the battle. That is known even with the low quality of the samples...
 
We can make an inference that. For knowing that the Tollensee Valley is an economic and strategic point, those two groups have to know the geography and geopolitic of the land at their time. This is very unlikely that we deal with a local group and an immigrant group, more about a fight between two kings and their clients for the control of the the Tollensee Valley, in that case dna cant really help us, except if we assume, that in ancient times, every fight is the result of local vs migrants, wich doesn't make really sens.
 
So apparently, according to wikipedia, they believe that those were immigrants because of an isotope related with millet consumption, so they assumed that it came from south, from the Alps precisely. The stuy is in german so i cant read it, but it was already discussed on eupedia last year.
 
We can make an inference that. For knowing that the Tollensee Valley is an economic and strategic point, those two groups have to know the geography and geopolitic of the land at their time. This is very unlikely that we deal with a local group and an immigrant group, more about a fight between two kings and their clients for the control of the the Tollensee Valley, in that case dna cant really help us, except if we assume, that in ancient times, every fight is the result of local vs migrants, wich doesn't make really sens.

the economical value of the Tollense valley was zero, but it was an important strategic road
I mentioned several times in this thread, that this road was one of the few - maybe the only - to cross the swamps when coming from south to the Baltic
these swamps were created after LGM when the icecaps melted but the terrain was not drained yet
all river valeys in this area, most of them runing in northwest direction were broad swamps and upto the Middle Ages all roads crossing these rivers were strategic, very often guarded by fortified castles

EisrandlagenNorddeutschland.jpg
extent of the icecaps during 3 last GMs

Sandur_Skaftafell_Iceland.jpg
landscape when the icecap melts : a sandur
 
the economical value of the Tollense valley was zero, but it was an important strategic road I mentioned several times in this thread, that this road was one of the few - maybe the only - to cross the swamps when coming from south to the Baltic these swamps were created after LGM when the icecaps melted but the terrain was not drained yet all river valeys in this area, most of them runing in northwest direction were broad swamps and upto the Middle Ages all roads crossing these rivers were strategic, very often guarded by fortified castles View attachment 9413 extent of the icecaps during 3 last GMs View attachment 9414 landscape when the icecap melts : a sandur
This was certainly one of the first Amber road of history, so its economic purpose is completely in topic i believe.
 
This was certainly one of the first Amber road of history, so its economic purpose is completely in topic i believe.

yes, and the road was running north-south
the first study about the Tollense valley dealt only with isotopes and no DNA
if I recall well their conclusion was a local northern group and a southern group from Bohemia/the Carpathian Basin
 
yes, and the road was running north-south
the first study about the Tollense valley dealt only with isotopes and no DNA
if I recall well their conclusion was a local northern group and a southern group from Bohemia/the Carpathian Basin

Actually it was, a local group and a northern alpin, millet eating group if i understand well.
 

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