Sardinians: Phenotypical variation

We know from genetic studies that the samples which show a population closer than any other modern ones to the European Neolithic farmers are from the isolated interior plateau. Coon noted differences phenotypically between them and Sardinians from Cagliari, as Moesan also alluded to, and also from people of coastal areas, particularly where they speak Corsican or Catalan dialects, for example.

"Anthropometrically, the Sardinians are a little better known than the
Corsicans. 129 They are, on the whole, a little shorter than the inhabitants
of the more northernly island, with a stature mean of 162 cm., while
nearly identical in head form (76.5). 130 The hair color is designated as
black in over half of the Sardinian groups measured, while hair blondism
attains the ratio of but 1 per cent. Mixed or light eyes run to about 1 5
per cent. As in Corsica, many irises are deep brown or black.

Regional studies within the island show that among the
living population the inhabitants of the more remote mountain villages
are shorter-statured, longer-headed, and more purely brunet than are
those living nearer the coast. The relatively great antiquity of the most
primitive small Mediterranean type is indicated, while at the same time
the Nordic nucleus found in Corsica seems to be lacking here."

A lot of Sardinians have moved into mainland Italy. Partly for that reason, we get a lot of performers from Sardinia. I think groups of such performers are better for phenotypic analysis because, as Moesan says, groups are better for seeing sort of average phenotypes, but also because these types of performers are more likely to be largely of only Sardinian descent and mostly are also from the Barbagia.

Anyway, here's one example.

In Italy Sardinia has a reputation, well deserved, imo, for beautiful women.

Maria Carta:

MARIA%20CARTA%20DIES%20IRAE.jpg


Giorgia Palmas:
giorgia-palmas-611543l.jpg


Caterina Murino
caterina-murino-images.jpg


Elisabetta Canalis
Elisabetta_Canalis_66%C3%A8me_Festival_de_Venise_(Mostra).jpg


@Zanatis,
Do you think that by repeating your opinion over and over again, and rudely, at that, you're more likely to persuade people? We heard your opinion loud and clear. Now readers can decide whether they trust the judgment/opinion of an Albanian who has gone there on holiday, and wouldn't necessarily know who's "pure" Sardinian and who isn't, or anthropological studies done by the likes of Coon, Biasutti and others. Now, move on, before it looks like spamming.

Oh, and address Moesan with respect and civility or there will be consequences. Are we clear?
 
Those women look really nice!

Are Corsicans like Sardinians aka almost completely 100 percent Euro Neolithic with just a bit more northern ancestry (your post said how they lack the "Nordic nucleus" found in Corsica, whatever that means)?
 
davef said:
Those women look really nice!

Are Corsicans like Sardinians aka almost completely 100 percent Euro Neolithic with just a bit more northern ancestry (your post said how they lack the "Nordic nucleus" found in Corsica, whatever that means)?
Click to expand...

Napoleon is from Corsica. Search for his pictures.
ps I heard that Napoleon had his Mother cook for him every Thursday. Rumors, just rumors.
Her name is Letizia Ramolino, born In Ajaccio, Corsica under the Republic of Genoa, same thing for Napoleon’s father Carlo Buonaparte, an Italian Lawyer. True.
 
Napoleon's family origins (minor nobility) were mostly from Toscana(and some Ligurian influence from his fearsome mother), and he looks it, imo. (It's said the only person he really feared, and would never deny was his mother. )

On the other hand, imo again, there's overlap between Toscana and Corsica, with most linguists seeing a lot of Tuscan influence on Corsican, for example. That's because there was quite a bit of migration from the mainland into Corsica, bringing not only language influence, but a lot of U-152, and I think some phenotypic variation as well. Then, the northern tip of Sardinia speaks Corsican dialects, so it wouldn't surprise that this area would have some overlap with Corsica. That's certainly where quite a bit of Sardinia's U-152 can be found if I remember correctly.

Before he got pudgy in middle age:



Napoleon_-_2.jpg


napoleon1.jpg


His bust could pass for that of an ancient Roman, imo.
x.jpg


Corsican polyphonic singers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9Ote3hejqU
 
Angela said:
Oh, and address Moesan with respect and civility or there will be consequences. Are we clear?
Click to expand...

Thanks Angela, for the pictures (beautiful women, true) and complements of argumentation - concerning Zanatis, i'm in a profond desaccord with him, but don't worry; I had by the past ruder answers and myself have been just a bit "rude" with him when speaking about his sight or eyes; no war, I'm cool
 
davef said:
Those women look really nice!

Are Corsicans like Sardinians aka almost completely 100 percent Euro Neolithic with just a bit more northern ancestry (your post said how they lack the "Nordic nucleus" found in Corsica, whatever that means)?
Click to expand...

Corsicans are much more differentiated than the Sardinians, even if they are a much smaller population than the Sardinians. Corsicans aren't 100 percent Euro Neolithic, they shifts towards North-Central Italy in a PCA. Corsicans are like Sardinians but much more mixed with mainland Italians.



Angela said:
Napoleon's family origins (minor nobility) were mostly from Toscana(and some Ligurian influence from his fearsome mother), and he looks it, imo. (It's said the only person he really feared, and would never deny was his mother. )
Click to expand...


Not clear if it's accurate, but local researchers are saying that Napoleon's paternal family is from Sarzana (Liguria), arrived there from Stadano, still in Lunigiana but the part of Lunigiana in the region of Tuscany. They are claiming that his Y-DNA is findable still today in Lunigiana. Even if his Y-DNA is quite rare anywhere there (overthere R1b approaches 80%) and its presence likely due to a founder effect. The relationship between the Bonaparte family from Sarzana in Liguria and the Bonaparte from San Miniato in Tuscany is not yet clear. Also because the latter are all extinct for a long time.

Grazie a documenti storici, sappiamo che la famiglia Bonaparte viveva a Sarzana già nel 1200, ma è stato dimostrato prima ancora che proveniva da Stadano. Recentemente, analizzando uno studio condotto nel 2003 su un centinaio di persone abitanti di Fivizzano e Pontremoli, ho trovato 7 aplotipi con una certa vicinanza ai Bonaparte. Con i risultati di Cipollini, la genetica ha dimostrato definitivamente che i Bonaparte erano originari della nostra zona.
Click to expand...


https://www.lanazione.it/la-spezia/cronaca/ecco-il-cugino-di-napoleone-lo-dice-il-dna-1.3229051


Angela said:
On the other hand, imo again, there's overlap between Toscana and Corsica, with most linguists seeing a lot of Tuscan influence on Corsican, for example. That's because there was quite a bit of migration from the mainland into Corsica, bringing not only language influence, but a lot of U-152, and I think some phenotypic variation as well. Then, the northern tip of Sardinia speaks Corsican dialects, so it wouldn't surprise that this area would have some overlap with Corsica. That's certainly where quite a bit of Sardinia's U-152 can be found if I remember correctly.
Click to expand...

In Corsica there is also a strong Sardinian and Ligurian influence. 19% of Corsican males are I2*/I2a according to Maciamo's data, quite rare in mainland Italy.

The original inhabitants of Corsica are of the same stock of Sardinians, the difference is that Corsica has received many more migrations from mainland Italy than Sardinia (even Sardinia has received these migrations, it is not true that all of Sardinia has remained completely isolated, but certainly the bulk of the Sardinian population has not been affected by migrations from mainland Italy).




Angela said:
On the other hand, imo again, there's overlap between Toscana and Corsica, with most linguists seeing a lot of Tuscan influence on Corsican, for example
Click to expand...

The similarity is based mostly on syntax, but everything else is quite different and Corsican language doesn't sound like modern-day Tuscan.

Stefano Tomassini (1) così spiega ai lettori italiani come suona la lingua còrsa:
Immagina l'umbro o il sabino parlato da un siciliano e ci arrivi piuttosto vicino.
Click to expand...


http://www.radiche.eu/zindex/zfile/contributi/pastore_zicavo.htm


Corsican is divided into 5 different branches, plus the Ligurian communities like Bonifacio.


696px-Dialetti_corsi.png
 
Pax Augusta said:
Corsicans are much more differentiated than the Sardinians, even if they are a much smaller population than the Sardinians. Corsicans aren't 100 percent Euro Neolithic, they shifts towards North-Central Italy in a PCA. Corsicans are like Sardinians but much more mixed with mainland Italians.






Not clear if it's accurate, but local researchers are saying that Napoleon's paternal family is from Sarzana (Liguria), arrived there from Stadano, still in Lunigiana but the part of Lunigiana in the region of Tuscany. They are claiming that his Y-DNA is findable still today in Lunigiana. Even if his Y-DNA is quite rare anywhere there (overthere R1b approaches 80%) and its presence likely due to a founder effect. The relationship between the Bonaparte family from Sarzana in Liguria and the Bonaparte from San Miniato in Tuscany is not yet clear. Also because the latter are all extinct for a long time.




https://www.lanazione.it/la-spezia/cronaca/ecco-il-cugino-di-napoleone-lo-dice-il-dna-1.3229051




In Corsica there is also a strong Sardinian and Ligurian influence. 19% of Corsican males are I2*/I2a according to Maciamo's data, quite rare in mainland Italy.

The original inhabitants of Corsica are of the same stock of Sardinians, the difference is that Corsica has received many more migrations from mainland Italy than Sardinia (even Sardinia has received these migrations, it is not true that all of Sardinia has remained completely isolated, but certainly the bulk of the Sardinian population has not been affected by migrations from mainland Italy).






The similarity is based mostly on syntax, but everything else is quite different and Corsican language doesn't sound like modern-day Tuscan.




http://www.radiche.eu/zindex/zfile/contributi/pastore_zicavo.htm


Corsican is divided into 5 different branches, plus the Ligurian communities like Bonifacio.


696px-Dialetti_corsi.png
Click to expand...

Agree. Sardinians are unique in a way that Corsicans aren't. Corsicans are much more influenced by the mainland.

I think I was the one who told you about Stadano, yes? Doesn't matter. It's right, and I mean right across the river from where my father's family settled after leaving Parma and making some money in America. Stadano is on the western, more "Ligurian" side of the Magra. In my father's time there was no modern bridge across at that exact spot, just the ruins of the Roman one. They tell me there was only a sort of basket on a cable type thing. I don't even know what you would call it. Well, in the summer you could walk or wade across, but in the winter months it could be a raging torrent.

The name change is new and rather pretentious.:)
piNJ2k2.png
[/IMG]
 
for I saw the most visible differences between Corsicans and Sardinians a sa whole are for the pigmentation, Corsicans are very more often lighter pigmented : more middle hues (first of all: dark brown but also middle and even some light brown, not the very light brown-dark golden blond typical of 'nordic' common dolicho type, dark 'honey' blond)- less dark hues (very dark brown, brownish black and jet black); the true ligh hairs are rare enough but not exceptional in Corsica (4-5% as a whole, like in Southern France and in a lot of Central Italian regions versus 1% in Sardinia), but the middle hues are almost as numerous than the dark hues (always as in Southern france and Central Italia, even if the more precisehues have not exactly the same distribution -
Corsica received surely some input from Northwest and Toscan Italia, but its people stayed rather dolichocephalic like the Sardinians, with the same span: in the 1930/40's, around 76 both, with peakes to 77 both, and extremes at 73 both in remote regions - The opposite to what we are waiting mesologically: as in Iberia, it seems the more dolicho are in more moutainous regions, not on shores! For I saw and red, the most often 'mediter' types, classical, gracile, but in Corsica at the individual level I saw some 'cromagnoid'like input (seemingly it would be in Calvi region?) with broader and shorter faces, not to far from the bulk of 'teviecoids', and also something evocating the 'atlanto-mediter' type, very seldom 'irano-afghan' nasal profils; the principal brachycephalic agent evocates 'alpine' more than 'dinaric'; in Corsica, the more blondism compared to Sardinia is not by force local, as said by scholars who thought it was as among Kabyles - because at the bony level, Corsican show sometimes 'nordic' skulls and faces, well reconizable according to me, faces above all, what is almost absent of Sardinia -
I did not see but heard of "blond remote villages" in Corsica (where? around Corte they seem rather darker than the mean) and a Corsican of Paris, publican drown in a sea of bretons in Montparnasse, a tall and broad and rather light pigmented man himself, said to me there have been some Austrian soldiers settled in some villages, I forgot the date, 18?Cy??? Somebody here could perhaps tell us?
the Genoa and Toscana input seem having been rather light, as what I think was a old Liguirian input -ancient Liguria, not the today littoral province); but all in all, all these influences accentuated the differences between Corsica and Sardinia;
at the dialectal level, for phonetics, Corsica in roughly divided in two parts: the southern one closer to northern sardinian dialects and in some slight way to southern italian dialects, the northern one closer to iberian and french neo-latine habits: on one side, something 'celticlike' on the other, something 'basco-castillan-western-occitanlike (oups!); the phonetic aspect is at the opposite of the toscan habits, and far enough too from southern italian for the most of aspects; I insist because linguistically the comparisons give often more weight to lexicon than to phonetics, but phonetics is less volatile although it evolves too by time - so the "toscan" affiliation of corsican dialects is due rather to a cultural influence more than to a demic influence -
for the strong overall tendancy to lenition of Corsican compared to central and southern dialects, I'm obliged to state this is a trait common to it, to iberian romance dialects and to celtic dialects; I wonder if this tendancy is not an heritage of the complex of Lusitanian-proto-Celtic-proto-Ligurian lnguages territories; at the contrary, the /b/ or /[FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]β/[/FONT] sound for initial /v/ present in northern corsican, seems rather limited at first to the region comprise between Northern Iberia and Southwestern France, but it is difficult to be sure it was not more extended before (Brittonic dialects tend to exclude V- at the ABSOLUTEinitial in ancient loanwords, putting either M- or -B before it
 
For eyes pigmentation, same reasoning: as one or two said here, Corsican are more often light and middle coloured and less often dark coloured than Sardinians; here Coon was very unprecise (I think it did not studied this pigmentation aspect for the most, and reported the results of other scientists based on heterogenous criteria for the most-
what is true is that compared to other regions of Europe (south-continental France by instance), the dark part of eyes of Corsican are often on the darkest side, as among Sardinians; but it is a general trait among the more dolichocephalic pops of Mediterranea; in more meso-sub-brachy lands as in a lot of Southern France regions, the dark brown eyes are more rare, the greenish-yellowish-brown eyes are more common. Even in other "dark" regions of Mediterranea, were meso and brachy's are common, one can see at least two hues of roughly said "brown" eyes; (Anatolian Turkey by example), withtout speak of intermediary hues between both -
here again let's separate allover dark hues %'s from darkest hues %'s, and separate absolute %'s from relative %'s
among all eyes, Cordsican show less broadly defined dark eyes than Sardinians, and more very light eyes too, but among the group of these broadly defined dark eyes, they show the same % (dominant) of dark brown eyes - tiring? Yes, a bit!
&: same reasoning of relative and absolute %'s for blonds and blues: not evident, but I said it before in other threads
 
Thanks Pax Augusta, it seems that what separates Sardinians from corsicans is that corsicans have more ancestry from Italy.

Its intersting how Sardinians kept themselves up as early farmers; what exactly drove their ancestors to take to the sea and sail? I would expect a group of farmers to stay on land and find better soil, but that's just me.

To wikipedka for me...
 
Does anyone know how much Yamnaya Corsicans have (and S. Italians ?) and how they behave in the Pca?

@Tomenable

Most Sardinians are 5-10% Yamnaya, HGDP (from Gennargentu area) are 0-5% (Chiang)

Utilizzando Tapatalk
 
Cato said:
Does anyone know how much Yamnaya Corsicans have (and S. Italians ?) and how they behave in the Pca?
Click to expand...

More or less here (il punto giallo ce l'ho messo io, prendila come tendenza. Ho utilizzato una delle PCA di Fiorito 2015. Chissà magari c'è anche una diversità genetica in Corsica, non saprei).

OnwSUgy.jpg




davef said:
Thanks Pax Augusta, it seems that what separates Sardinians from corsicans is that corsicans have more ancestry from Italy.

Its intersting how Sardinians kept themselves up as early farmers; what exactly drove their ancestors to take to the sea and sail? I would expect a group of farmers to stay on land and find better soil, but that's just me.
Click to expand...

I do not know the history of Sardinia so well to tell you why the Sardinians have been less affected by migrations from Italy. However, Sardinians are known for having a great tradition of sheep farming. Fishing is also developed but it is more a recent phenomenon. This can be seen, for example, in the Sardinian cuisines that traditionally have many recipes based on meat and cheese, while you would only expect fish.

Consider that many islands of the Mediterranean suffered continuous attacks and raids from the so-called Saracens, see both the flags of Sardinia and Corsica that have the heads of Moors in memory of this. These continuous raids have led the inhabitants of the islands to live more inside, in more isolated and inaccessible areas. This may have contributed to further genetic drift. And why Sardinia and not the other islands? Because Sardinia is also among the largest and the furthest from Italy. It is true that from Sardinia through Corsica there is a corridor that leads to the islands of the Tuscan archipelago and from there to mainland Italy. But this corridor leads first from mainland Italy to Corsica than to Sardinia.

Sardinia's flag

640px-Flag_of_the_Italian_region_Sardinia.svg.png



Corsica's flag

640px-Flag_of_Corsica.svg.png
 
Pax Augusta said:
More or less here (il punto giallo ce l'ho messo io, prendila come tendenza. Ho utilizzato una delle PCA di Fiorito 2015. Chissà magari c'è anche una diversità genetica in Corsica, non saprei).

OnwSUgy.jpg
Click to expand...

Thanks! So close to North-Central Italy, maybe a bit more EEF

Invaders in Sardinia always settled in the same places, the cities on the coast. Virtually no one in the interior but also almost no one in the villages just some km away from the coasts. And the only ethnicity that migrated there in great number were the Corsicans, from what i've read, that's why they speak Corsican in the north.

Utilizzando Tapatalk
 
Zanatis said:
Both my eyes are at 100% still so don’t worry about that. Like I said, I deal with Sardinians daily and unless I have no personal experience/knowledge I don’t engage in any conversation throwing claims. I’ve met hundreds and seen thousands and that includes meeting them outside of Sardinia and in winter (less tan).

I am 100% sure Sardinians don’t even come close to Portuguese or Cypriots.

Sicily is big and diverse. Visit both regions since they’re some of the most beautiful places on earth and then decide for yourself.

I’ve read the same crap online for them and many other nations including my own (Albania) and believe me it’s so easy to fool someone even with 1000 pictures.

Perhaps what confuses you and others is the fact that Sardinians have less diversity appearance wise so the fact that you see more blonde Sicilians doesn’t mean they’re not darker on average. I’m not saying I’m 100% sure about Sicilians being darker but I’ve seen more “exotic”types there than in Sardinia.
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Sardinians have less blondes than Northern Syrians and Turks based on anthropological measurements. Keep in mind that Ashkenazi Jews are on par with Central Italians and the Balkans in terms of pigmentation but genetically they're as Middle Eastern/East Mediterranean as Maltese and Greek Islanders. They indeed seem homogeneously dark but lack the extreme types.
 
The Environment plays a role in skin tone. I can’t count how many times I have been asked if I’ve been sick for looking too pale by the people of my Town when I got back in Italy (others talk to me as if I’m a tourist). But in less than a week or so I magically mostly blend in with the rest of the people.
 
 
Cato said:
If i'm not wrong most of the people in traditional dress are from Nuoro province..

These are actually from Cagliari and South West (i googled Liceo/High School Cagliari ecc..)
https://sardegna.agenziaentrate.it/...o/DR/1_CAGLIARI_LICEO_SIOTTO_1I_2I_grande.jpg
https://sardegna.agenziaentrate.it/...grafica/Cagliari/liceo_brotzu1_doc.grande.jpg
http://www.consorziouno.it/opencms/...ntamento2015/2015.04.08_Assemini/IMG_4671.JPG
http://www.consorziouno.it/opencms/...tamento2017/2017.03.13b_Iglesias/DSC03505.JPG
http://www.consorziouno.it/opencms/...tamento2015/2015.02.25a_Carbonia/IMG_2833.JPG

Utilizzando Tapatalk
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Some of them could be from Mainland Italy and a few even from North Africa. There are more foreigners in the younger generations although the majority look like regular Italian from Sardinia.
 
Very handsome people, if they are the most similar to Neolithic farmers, you could see how European facial features formed through them.
 
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