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Thread: R1b-BY611>Z2705: Origins and Expansion

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    So I have been doing a lot of research these days and I found some interesting haplotypes, all of them belonging to Z2705 as far as I can tell. I think there is at least one more branch, maybe two, parallel to the 2705* that there is now. I will list them here and set some expectations:


    3) The haplotypes DYS393=12, DYS390=24 & DYS392=13. I am guessing this could be a parallel branch of Z2705 too. There is a chance that the DYS393=12 & DYS392=11 line emerged from it, but DYS459 values make me think it might not be so. There are 6 Albanian, one Italian from Sicily, one Macedonian and the Croatian kindly mentioned by Aspurg with this haplotype.

    The Croatian might be an ancestor to both all of those with DYS393=12 & DYS390=24, regardless of DYS392.


    So to sum up, I believe there are at least three lines under Z2705, one scattered all over the Balkans, one quite north-western, and one just western.

    What is your opinion about the next haplotype (no any SNP did)?

    Croatia R-M269 12 24 14 10 11-11 12 12 12 12 13 29 18 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 14-15-16-17 10 11 19-23 15 14 17 17 36-38 12 12

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    There's many non-modal values there. Can I know which study found it, or which are of Croatia it is from? I haven't seen it before. It would be great to try a couple of SNP tests for this person.

    DYS393=12 is probably a sign of Y32147- and BY38894-. I'm waiting to see some DYS393=12 to be tested for these SNP-s before I'm certain but it does look that way.

    DYS459 is also non-modal and the same as Y23373 and the same as the other Croatian haplotype mentioned by Aspurg. This marker is relatively stable for Y32147 and BY38894, so they both seem negative for these SNP-s, and if they are BY611, I'd say they should probably be either Z2705* or Z23373*. Among the other samples I found with DYS393=12 and DYS390=24, there is only one with DYS459 available, and it's 8-10. These two Croatians' values might be ancestral to his.
    Last edited by Ownstyler; 12-08-18 at 21:03.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    There's many non-modal values there. Can I know which study found it, or which are of Croatia it is from? I haven't seen it before. It would be great to try a couple of SNP tests for this person.

    DYS393=12 is probably a sign of Y32147- and BY38894-. I'm waiting to see some DYS393=12 to be tested for these SNP-s before I'm certain but it does look that way.

    DYS459 is also non-modal and the same as Y23373 and the same as the other Croatian haplotype mentioned by Aspurg. This marker is relatively stable for Y32147 and BY38894, so they both seem negative for these SNP-s, and if they are BY611, I'd say they should probably be either Z2705* or Z23373*. Among the other samples I found with DYS393=12 and DYS390=24, there is only one with DYS459 available, and it's 8-10. These two Croatians might be ancestral to him.
    I have found the haplotype in "Slovenia DNA project" at FTDna. There is no ethnicity, surname or place of origin.
    I have been wondered for a long time whether it is BY611. His haplotype is different than one mentioned by Aspurg.
    Here are some haplotypes you might find interesting:
    Country Haplogroup DYS393 DYS390 DYS19 DYS391 DYS385 DYS426 DYS388 DYS439 DYS389i DYS392 DYS389ii DYS458 DYS459 DYS455 DYS454 DYS447 DYS437 DYS448 DYS449 DYS464 DYS460 Y-GATA-H4 YCAII DYS456 DYS607 DYS576 DYS570 CDY DYS442 DYS438 DYS531 DYS578 DYF395S1 DYS590 DYS537 DYS641 DYS472 DYF406S1 DYS511 DYS425 DYS413 DYS557 DYS594 DYS436 DYS490 DYS534 DYS450 DYS444 DYS481 DYS520 DYS446 DYS617 DYS568 DYS487 DYS572 DYS640 DYS492 DYS565 DYS710 DYS485 DYS632 DYS495 DYS540 DYS714 DYS716 DYS717 DYS505 DYS556 DYS549 DYS589 DYS522 DYS494 DYS533 DYS636 DYS575 DYS638 DYS462 DYS452 DYS445 Y-GATA-A10 DYS463 DYS441 Y-GGAAT-1B07 DYS525 DYS712 DYS593 DYS650 DYS532 DYS715 DYS504 DYS513 DYS561 DYS552 DYS726 DYS635 DYS587 DYS643 DYS497 DYS510 DYS434 DYS461 DYS435
    14Lu Luserna Cimbrians R-M269 (L51-) 12 25 14 11 11-11 12 13 13 30 16 15 19 11 16 12 23
    16Lu Luserna Cimbrians R-M269 (L51-) 12 25 14 11 11-11 12 13 13 30 16 15 19 11 16 12 23
    28Lu Luserna Cimbrians R-M269 (L51-) 12 25 14 11 11-11 12 13 13 30 16 15 19 10 16 12 23
    Ysearch YARC5 Croatia 12 24 14 11 11-11 12 12 11 13 13 29 15 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14-16-16-18 11 11 19-23 15 12 12 12 14 11 30 12 13 14 10 23 11
    Croatia R-M269 12 24 14 10 11-11 12 12 12 12 13 29 18 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 14-15-16-17 10 11 19-23 15 14 17 17 36-38 12 12
    W_Croa_055 W_Croa_055 R1b1a2 13 24 14 11 11-11 12 13 13 29 16 15 19 11 15 12 23
    N_Croa_129 N_Croa_129 R1b1a2 13 24 14 11 11-11 12 13 13 29 16 15 19 11 12 23
    N_Croa_048 N_Croa_048 R1b1a2 13 24 14 11 11-11 13 13 13 29 16 15 19 11 12 23
    E_Croa_053 E_Croa_053 R1b1a2 13 24 14 10 11-11 12 13 13 29 15 15 19 11 12 23
    C_Croa_047 C_Croa_047 R1b1a2 13 24 14 11 11-11 12 13 13 29 15 15 19 10 12 23
    C_Croa_048 C_Croa_048 R1b1a2 13 24 14 11 11-11 12 13 13 29 15 15 19 11 12 23
    C_Croa_049 C_Croa_049 R1b1a2 13 24 14 11 11-11 12 13 13 29 16 15 19 11 12 23
    Western Croatia 13 23 14 11 11–11 13 13 29 19-24
    Ljubljana, Slovenia [Slovenian] 13 24 14 11 11-11 12 13 13 30 16 15 19 11 14 18 17 12 22 13 12 23 10

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Well with Z2705 thus far earliest split is dys392=11, and these are relatively equally dispersed among Albanians, Bulgarians, Romanians, Aromanians from Andon Poci, Turks from Macedonia, Greeks, Serbs (just one ?). Bulgarian haplotypes and Romanian from Dolj on low number of STR's seem to show more
    Finally a Turk from Macedonia 393=12 and 392=11 sample in our project. He is from Dellga (D’llga) Kumanova region. On 37 he’s closer to Celibashi than to the Greek sample that’s currently on yfull. Also matching 12/12 the Bulgarian sample that has commercially tested, the fella from the Bulgarian project.

    He identifies as Turk with origin from Anatolia. However, based on his results that doesn’t seem to be the case? Even autosomally he is 100% southeast European. Interesting thing is that Trifunovski mentions this village as being a muslim Albanian settlement, in one of his books. Also according to some Albanian sources who questioned the villagers there in the past, they seem to be with origin from Zabzun, Diber region. Crazy stuff.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vlad82 View Post
    What is your opinion about the next haplotype (no any SNP did)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vlad82 View Post
    I have found the haplotype in "Slovenia DNA project" at FTDna. There is no ethnicity, surname or place of origin.
    I have been wondered for a long time whether it is BY611. His haplotype is different than one mentioned by Aspurg.
    Here are some haplotypes you might find interesting:

    This is an interesting haplotype again. Although he is not close to NW Croatian they might be distantly related. If they are their TMRCA should be higher than the current 1250 ypb for R-Z2705. They share both dys549=9-10, that looks like their connecting point. Also unlike the first sample this one has dys607. And the value is 14, a match with R-Y23373* American there. dys607=14 is very unusual for R-CTS1450.

    Among R-BY250 there is an English-Irish clade R-BY250>Y19469>Y32822 with modal dys385=11-11, TMRCA 850 ypb but the clade is old, being formed 4000 ybp, so the jump 14->11 could have happened at any point. They have dys459=9-10, but overall they seem very distant to these haplotypes. Also dys607=17. Also one isolated English BY250>Y19469>Y19752* has dys385=11-11 but one of defining values for Y19752 seems dys391=12 and generally 16/37 with this Croatian, hard to imagine he could be Y19752. Y32822 is also 15/37. And R-Y23373 is 14/37 with matches on dys459 and dys607. He's had a double mutation on dys389. That makes him instantly more distant to anybody.

    If these are BY611, they would make the branch definitely Western-Balkan oriented. I know that Croatian was tested already 8 years ago, hence some missing STR's, so he's likely not active. But that from Slovenian Project might be "responsive"..


    Quote Originally Posted by Leka View Post
    Finally a Turk from Macedonia 393=12 and 392=11 sample in our project. He is from Dellga (D’llga) Kumanova region. On 37 he’s closer to Celibashi than to the Greek sample that’s currently on yfull. Also matching 12/12 the Bulgarian sample that has commercially tested, the fella from the Bulgarian project.


    He identifies as Turk with origin from Anatolia. However, based on his results that doesn’t seem to be the case? Even autosomally he is 100% southeast European. Interesting thing is that Trifunovski mentions this village as being a muslim Albanian settlement, in one of his books. Also according to some Albanian sources who questioned the villagers there in the past, they seem to be with origin from Zabzun, Diber region. Crazy stuff.

    That's interesting, well there were 5 of those among Macedonian Turks, so it seems a common haplotype there. In Vasil Kanchov's book about Macedonia from 1900 there is no D'lga, closest dominantly Turkish villages were Sredno and Dolno Konjari some 7 km SW from D'lga, so they might hail from there. I don't think Turks would be 100% SE in that calculator, that's more typical of Albanians. Also as you said he's closer to Celibashi.. So I wouldn't buy the Anatolian story. Not to say that there aren't Macedonian Turks with Anatolian origins, there are various unusual haplotypes in their sample with matches in Anatolia..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    This is an interesting haplotype again. Although he is not close to NW Croatian they might be distantly related. If they are their TMRCA should be higher than the current 1250 ypb for R-Z2705. They share both dys549=9-10, that looks like their connecting point. Also unlike the first sample this one has dys607. And the value is 14, a match with R-Y23373* American there. dys607=14 is very unusual for R-CTS1450.

    Among R-BY250 there is an English-Irish clade R-BY250>Y19469>Y32822 with modal dys385=11-11, TMRCA 850 ypb but the clade is old, being formed 4000 ybp, so the jump 14->11 could have happened at any point. They have dys459=9-10, but overall they seem very distant to these haplotypes. Also dys607=17. Also one isolated English BY250>Y19469>Y19752* has dys385=11-11 but one of defining values for Y19752 seems dys391=12 and generally 16/37 with this Croatian, hard to imagine he could be Y19752. Y32822 is also 15/37. And R-Y23373 is 14/37 with matches on dys459 and dys607. He's had a double mutation on dys389. That makes him instantly more distant to anybody.

    If these are BY611, they would make the branch definitely Western-Balkan oriented. I know that Croatian was tested already 8 years ago, hence some missing STR's, so he's likely not active. But that from Slovenian Project might be "responsive"..
    This Croatian sample is really interesting and it does look like a BY611 and possibly even Z2705, but hard to say without SNP confirming it (I sent an email to the Slovenian admin about it so hopefully he responds). DYS607 doesn't seem that stable under Z2705, we have few samples in our project even confirmed Y32147+ who have DYS607=14, so it's all over the place.

    That's interesting, well there were 5 of those among Macedonian Turks, so it seems a common haplotype there. In Vasil Kanchov's book about Macedonia from 1900 there is no D'lga, closest dominantly Turkish villages were Sredno and Dolno Konjari some 7 km SW from D'lga, so they might hail from there. I don't think Turks would be 100% SE in that calculator, that's more typical of Albanians. Also as you said he's closer to Celibashi.. So I wouldn't buy the Anatolian story. Not to say that there aren't Macedonian Turks with Anatolian origins, there are various unusual haplotypes in their sample with matches in Anatolia..
    Yes indeed. Same thing with Trifunovski, he speaks of Turks from Konjare and few other villages around there but doesn't mention any in D'lga. He only speaks of D'lga when he mentions the Albanians there. Not that familiar with the autosomal DNA of Balkan Turks but thought that was surprising him scoring 100%. Not just that but also his autosomal matches are predominantly Albanian.

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    The Slovenian project admin is unwilling to cooperate for some reason. He replied to a first email but as soon as the Croatian sample was mentioned he stopped replying. There is no way to contact that person.

    In any case, I think that one might even be BY250 or L51+, I'm not sure. But the one Aspurg mentioned at the beginning, who was part of the Serbian project, he seems like BY611, almost certainly. I have tried to find a way to contact him, but he has disappeared. If anyone knows how to get to that person let me know, I will find a way to sponsor an additional test to determine his position on the tree.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Leka View Post
    This Croatian sample is really interesting and it does look like a BY611 and possibly even Z2705, but hard to say without SNP confirming it (I sent an email to the Slovenian admin about it so hopefully he responds). DYS607 doesn't seem that stable under Z2705, we have few samples in our project even confirmed Y32147+ who have DYS607=14, so it's all over the place.



    Yes indeed. Same thing with Trifunovski, he speaks of Turks from Konjare and few other villages around there but doesn't mention any in D'lga. He only speaks of D'lga when he mentions the Albanians there. Not that familiar with the autosomal DNA of Balkan Turks but thought that was surprising him scoring 100%. Not just that but also his autosomal matches are predominantly Albanian.
    I am that Turk from D'liga village of Kumanova,

    I am ofcourse autosomally almost no different to Albanians, because my mother, my father's mother, my grandpa's mother and great grandpa's mother all are Albanian so this intermarrying made me so close to Albanian autosomal. the only difference is i have %1 east asian components, that is how much left after mixing so much with Albanians, a typical Turk from Turkey have average of %10 East Asian components, Turks from Bulgaria have average of %8 and Turks from Eastern Macedonia has average of %4 East Asian components depending on the region. These are average thou, sometimes it is as less as %1 sometimes high as %20 we have good amount of samples in several Turkish dna projects.
    As you know autosomal dna completely changes after 6 or 7 generations of mixing so after 5 generations of Albanian brides i almost have became like a typical Albanian autosomally. My gedmatch kit number is: T018225 if you want to check.

    Our known family history in the D'liga village is not so old, we have been there maximum for 150 or 200 years, as our elders told us that we have migrated to D'liga from Debar (i dont know macedonia Debar or Albania Debar) due to a murder our great great grandpa did(probably his name was Suleyman) but we always knew that we came to Debar earlier from Bursa(Karacabey) as an imam and that is how it is written in the Ottoman Tax archives, but some elders say we had come to Debar from the north like Tataristan and some says we were always in Debar and we are actually Albanians, so it is actually unknown, but if they were really Albanian then how and why would they be assimilated into being Turkish while living in Albanian lands, doesn't make sense.

    Closest Muslim villages to our village are Konjare villages(Turks) and Romanovtse(Ramalija-Albanian village) we always gave our girls to Konjare as brides but we got our brides from Romanovtse except my mom, she is from Studenicani. Women in our family are all Albanian and they learnt Turkish afterwards but men in our family speaks no other language than Turkish, they don't know any other language, they have learnt only Serbian in the army service during Yugoslavia time and they are not really fluent. By the way my grandpa always told me he and my grandmother could not speak at all in first 6 months of their marriage :) he couldn't speak Albanian and she couldn't speak Turkish.

    I personally don't believe the migration from Anatolia even thou it is in the Ottoman tax archives but we surprisingly use very much archaic Turkic words and traditions that are used by Turkic tribes in Ural region, that is interesting, plus some of the elders in my paternal line has very much asiatic phenotypes, like very much slanted eyes, less facial hair high cheek bones, but some of them looks typical European, i would love to test their autosomal dna but they all have passed away in recent years.

    My Y dna is tested by family tree dna with 37 markers and ftdna predicts R1b M-269 then i have calculated my str results on nevgen and it predicts Z2103-BY611 with %100 probability but i didn't buy snp pack, it is prediction with my 37 markers by nevgen. I have only one match on ftdna and that is a Bulgarian guy from thracian region, i contacted his friend and he said he is an orthodox Bulgarian and he doesn't have a different background as far as he knows, he only tested y12 thou so i can't see if he matches me on other markers too. i have no any other match, only him and he is Bulgarian that is interesting.

    My y37 str results with ftdna orders:

    12,24,14,11,11-11,12,12,13,13,11,29

    14,8-9,11,11,25,15,19,30,14-16-16-17

    12,11,19-23,15,15,18,17,36-37,12,12

    im open to hear any information, some guy said my subclade may be mutated recently therefore it only has one Y12 match, i don't know if that is the case, im not really expert on these, just learning and enjoying

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    Quote Originally Posted by atalay34 View Post
    I am that Turk from D'liga village of Kumanova
    Hi Atalay! Thank you for reaching out and welcome.


    Quote Originally Posted by atalay34 View Post
    that is how it is written in the Ottoman Tax archives
    Which archive are you talking about exactly? Could you cite the source, and the page number please?


    Quote Originally Posted by atalay34 View Post
    why would they be assimilated into being Turkish while living in Albanian lands
    This type of conversion was actually very frequent. Keep in mind that Macedonia has never been an Albanian controlled territory, and whoever had the government exercised power in whichever way they saw fit. For example, many Albanians in Macedonia "switched" to Turks in the 1950's and were allowed to move to Turkey. Before that, many Balkan Muslims were pushed to identify as Turks, during the Ottoman Empire, especially from the Young Turks. They pursued a Turkish nationalistic policy aiming to unify all Muslims of the Empire into one identity. Many "native" Balkan people assumed a Turkish identity despite not actually having arrived from Turkey. Studies are already finding that Turkish-speakers in the Balkans today are genetically identical to other Balkan people (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19107901). So it's entirely possible that your paternal ancestors are originally from the Balkans.


    Quote Originally Posted by atalay34 View Post
    I have only one match on ftdna and that is a Bulgarian guy from thracian region, i contacted his friend and he said he is an orthodox Bulgarian and he doesn't have a different background as far as he knows, he only tested y12 thou so i can't see if he matches me on other markers too. i have no any other match, only him and he is Bulgarian that is interesting.
    Your haplotype is very interesting but we already know that about 20 other people from Albania, Macedonia, Bulgaria, Greece, Serbia and Romania match it (we have discussed this haplotype in this thread, check the posts above). This includes people tested commercially and through scientific studies.

    Quote Originally Posted by atalay34 View Post
    My Y dna is tested by family tree dna with 37 markers and ftdna predicts R1b M-269 then i have calculated my str results on nevgen and it predicts Z2103-BY611 with %100 probability but i didn't buy snp pack, it is prediction with my 37 markers by nevgen.
    If you click here: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2705/, you will see a Greek sample, YF14723. I am pretty certain that you would form a subclade together with him. So doing an SNP pack will not tell you anything new. However, if you want to learn more about your ancestry, I would highly recommend BigY (or Elite Y or Dante Labs WGS). These tests will not only tell you exactly where you belong on the tree, but also how close you are to YF14723 and everyone else. You will also know your personal Y-DNA mutations and have about 500 STR values to compare with others. Furthermore, when new samples similar to you do these deep tests, they will also tell you how far you are from them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    Hi Atalay! Thank you for reaching out and welcome.
    Which archive are you talking about exactly? Could you cite the source, and the page number please?
    This type of conversion was actually very frequent. Keep in mind that Macedonia has never been an Albanian controlled territory, and whoever had the government exercised power in whichever way they saw fit. For example, many Albanians in Macedonia "switched" to Turks in the 1950's and were allowed to move to Turkey. Before that, many Balkan Muslims were pushed to identify as Turks, during the Ottoman Empire, especially from the Young Turks. They pursued a Turkish nationalistic policy aiming to unify all Muslims of the Empire into one identity. Many "native" Balkan people assumed a Turkish identity despite not actually having arrived from Turkey. Studies are already finding that Turkish-speakers in the Balkans today are genetically identical to other Balkan people (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19107901). So it's entirely possible that your paternal ancestors are originally from the Balkans.


    Your haplotype is very interesting but we already know that about 20 other people from Albania, Macedonia, Bulgaria, Greece, Serbia and Romania match it (we have discussed this haplotype in this thread, check the posts above). This includes people tested commercially and through scientific studies.
    If you click here: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2705/, you will see a Greek sample, YF14723. I am pretty certain that you would form a subclade together with him. So doing an SNP pack will not tell you anything new. However, if you want to learn more about your ancestry, I would highly recommend BigY (or Elite Y or Dante Labs WGS). These tests will not only tell you exactly where you belong on the tree, but also how close you are to YF14723 and everyone else. You will also know your personal Y-DNA mutations and have about 500 STR values to compare with others. Furthermore, when new samples similar to you do these deep tests, they will also tell you how far you are from them.
    Albanians were expelled from today North Macedonia in the 1950's by the Yugoslav communist authorities, continuing an pre WWII agreement between Turkey and Kingdom of Yugoslavia. It was an ethnic cleansing.
    17 Dec.
    Paget to the Council.

    Now the Council's letters seem to imply (words quoted) that the King will keep no strangers save the Albanoys.

    Cales, 17 Dec. 1545. Signed.


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    Thank you for your repsonse,

    i didn't read it in the ottoman archives personally, one of our relatives did, it is called "Tahrir" archives. Basically ottoman's population archive in order to collect taxes, it is in Ottoman script i can't read it anyway.

    İn our D'liga village there are 3 different families, these three families are not relatives and they all came to the village from different places, we don't know which one is from Dibre.

    My fathers family is definitely not one of these who turned to Turkishness in 20th century. My mothers family did thou. My maternal grandpa changed his identity to "Turk" to be able to immigrate to Turkey in 1950's but he was totally aware he is ethnic Albanian, it is just on papers he seemed Turk, my paternal side is totally different story thou, they identify themselves as Turk for centuries and they are known as Turk, all the neighbouring Albanian villages in Kumanova and Skopje call our village as Turk village, when im in Macedonia whenever i tell an Albanian im from D'liga the first thing they say is you guys are stubborn Turks who didn't learn any language for 600 years :) my paternal side can only speak Turkish, just last 2 generations could speak Albanian and Macedonian because they moved to bigger cities like Kumanova and Skopje but the elders can speak only Turkish.

    Our village is not a kind of village to be turned into Turkish by assimilation because it is so isolated on the mountains and there is no even road to the village, nobody even wanted to get married there because it is so isolated and poor condition, my grandpa always told me since there is no road on winter times they were trapped in the village for months.

    if my paternal side turn out to be Albanian in origin i would not mind at all i would be proud of it because i already consider myself as Albanian except my paternal line but still let's be cautious on this because it is genetic science, lets please think objectively before making a statement, i could be any one of these ethnicities in balkans so labeling me as Albanian right away seems a little subjective to me. Please take my autosomal dna out of this subject. Autosomally im Albanian because our last 5 generations mothers are albanian but that doesnt change my Y dna ofcourse.

    When did this BY-611 exactly came to Balkans? Or is it evolved in Balkans? İt is a subclade of z2103 right so when did it apart from z2103 exactly?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    This is an interesting haplotype again. Although he is not close to NW Croatian they might be distantly related. If they are their TMRCA should be higher than the current 1250 ypb for R-Z2705. They share both dys549=9-10, that looks like their connecting point. Also unlike the first sample this one has dys607. And the value is 14, a match with R-Y23373* American there. dys607=14 is very unusual for R-CTS1450.

    Among R-BY250 there is an English-Irish clade R-BY250>Y19469>Y32822 with modal dys385=11-11, TMRCA 850 ypb but the clade is old, being formed 4000 ybp, so the jump 14->11 could have happened at any point. They have dys459=9-10, but overall they seem very distant to these haplotypes. Also dys607=17. Also one isolated English BY250>Y19469>Y19752* has dys385=11-11 but one of defining values for Y19752 seems dys391=12 and generally 16/37 with this Croatian, hard to imagine he could be Y19752. Y32822 is also 15/37. And R-Y23373 is 14/37 with matches on dys459 and dys607. He's had a double mutation on dys389. That makes him instantly more distant to anybody.

    If these are BY611, they would make the branch definitely Western-Balkan oriented. I know that Croatian was tested already 8 years ago, hence some missing STR's, so he's likely not active. But that from Slovenian Project might be "responsive"..





    That's interesting, well there were 5 of those among Macedonian Turks, so it seems a common haplotype there. In Vasil Kanchov's book about Macedonia from 1900 there is no D'lga, closest dominantly Turkish villages were Sredno and Dolno Konjari some 7 km SW from D'lga, so they might hail from there. I don't think Turks would be 100% SE in that calculator, that's more typical of Albanians. Also as you said he's closer to Celibashi.. So I wouldn't buy the Anatolian story. Not to say that there aren't Macedonian Turks with Anatolian origins, there are various unusual haplotypes in their sample with matches in Anatolia..
    You have a very interesting Y haplogroup your haplogroup is highest in Albanians and Montenegrin

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    Albanians were expelled from today North Macedonia in the 1950's by the Yugoslav communist authorities, continuing an pre WWII agreement between Turkey and Kingdom of Yugoslavia. It was an ethnic cleansing.
    Slovenians planted bombs in Ex Yugoslavia then the Croatians sided with them and the rest is history.

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    Quote Originally Posted by atalay34 View Post
    Thank you for your repsonse,

    i didn't read it in the ottoman archives personally, one of our relatives did, it is called "Tahrir" archives. Basically ottoman's population archive in order to collect taxes, it is in Ottoman script i can't read it anyway.

    İn our D'liga village there are 3 different families, these three families are not relatives and they all came to the village from different places, we don't know which one is from Dibre.

    My fathers family is definitely not one of these who turned to Turkishness in 20th century. My mothers family did thou. My maternal grandpa changed his identity to "Turk" to be able to immigrate to Turkey in 1950's but he was totally aware he is ethnic Albanian, it is just on papers he seemed Turk, my paternal side is totally different story thou, they identify themselves as Turk for centuries and they are known as Turk, all the neighbouring Albanian villages in Kumanova and Skopje call our village as Turk village, when im in Macedonia whenever i tell an Albanian im from D'liga the first thing they say is you guys are stubborn Turks who didn't learn any language for 600 years :) my paternal side can only speak Turkish, just last 2 generations could speak Albanian and Macedonian because they moved to bigger cities like Kumanova and Skopje but the elders can speak only Turkish.

    Our village is not a kind of village to be turned into Turkish by assimilation because it is so isolated on the mountains and there is no even road to the village, nobody even wanted to get married there because it is so isolated and poor condition, my grandpa always told me since there is no road on winter times they were trapped in the village for months.

    if my paternal side turn out to be Albanian in origin i would not mind at all i would be proud of it because i already consider myself as Albanian except my paternal line but still let's be cautious on this because it is genetic science, lets please think objectively before making a statement, i could be any one of these ethnicities in balkans so labeling me as Albanian right away seems a little subjective to me. Please take my autosomal dna out of this subject. Autosomally im Albanian because our last 5 generations mothers are albanian but that doesnt change my Y dna ofcourse.

    When did this BY-611 exactly came to Balkans? Or is it evolved in Balkans? İt is a subclade of z2103 right so when did it apart from z2103 exactly?
    Being a Turk from Macedonia is not a calling card to have number one Caucasus ancestry, number two Albanian ancestry, not all Albanians from Macedonia have Caucasus ancestry although some do. Most Albanians in Macedonia are the same as those in Kosovo just normal Balkan.

    Other ethnicity in Macedonia are Bulgarians Serbs, Greeks and Vlach Romanians, Macedonians are often South Romanians or Bulgarians the other admixtures are minimal.

    Also, what's your Mother's side there isn't such a thing as a Turkish race you're all converts to Islam and most Turkish males have ten to fifteen percent Mongolic dna anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by atalay34 View Post
    if my paternal side turn out to be Albanian in origin i would not mind at all i would be proud of it because i already consider myself as Albanian except my paternal line but still let's be cautious on this because it is genetic science, lets please think objectively before making a statement, i could be any one of these ethnicities in balkans so labeling me as Albanian right away seems a little subjective to me. Please take my autosomal dna out of this subject. Autosomally im Albanian because our last 5 generations mothers are albanian but that doesnt change my Y dna ofcourse.

    When did this BY-611 exactly came to Balkans? Or is it evolved in Balkans? İt is a subclade of z2103 right so when did it apart from z2103 exactly?
    I wasn't saying your Y-DNA line is 100% Albanian, we don't know that yet, but there is a good chance.

    BY611 is 3300 years old and the R1b-Z2705 Balkan branch has been in the Balkans for at least 1300 years, but I think that once these uncommon haplotypes are commercially tested this will be pushed by several hundred years, into the Roman period. Before that, this line seems to have been in Mediterranean Europe, it's impossible to guess where. Even your own haplotype, if you upload it to YFull, might change the R1b-Z2705 TMRCA a bit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lenab View Post
    Slovenians planted bombs in Ex Yugoslavia then the Croatians sided with them and the rest is history.
    1938
    Convention Regulating the Emigration of the Turkish Population from the Region of Southern Serbia in Yugoslavia

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by atalay34 View Post
    Thank you for your repsonse,

    i didn't read it in the ottoman archives personally, one of our relatives did, it is called "Tahrir" archives. Basically ottoman's population archive in order to collect taxes, it is in Ottoman script i can't read it anyway.

    İn our D'liga village there are 3 different families, these three families are not relatives and they all came to the village from different places, we don't know which one is from Dibre.

    My fathers family is definitely not one of these who turned to Turkishness in 20th century. My mothers family did thou. My maternal grandpa changed his identity to "Turk" to be able to immigrate to Turkey in 1950's but he was totally aware he is ethnic Albanian, it is just on papers he seemed Turk, my paternal side is totally different story thou, they identify themselves as Turk for centuries and they are known as Turk, all the neighbouring Albanian villages in Kumanova and Skopje call our village as Turk village, when im in Macedonia whenever i tell an Albanian im from D'liga the first thing they say is you guys are stubborn Turks who didn't learn any language for 600 years :) my paternal side can only speak Turkish, just last 2 generations could speak Albanian and Macedonian because they moved to bigger cities like Kumanova and Skopje but the elders can speak only Turkish.

    Our village is not a kind of village to be turned into Turkish by assimilation because it is so isolated on the mountains and there is no even road to the village, nobody even wanted to get married there because it is so isolated and poor condition, my grandpa always told me since there is no road on winter times they were trapped in the village for months.

    if my paternal side turn out to be Albanian in origin i would not mind at all i would be proud of it because i already consider myself as Albanian except my paternal line but still let's be cautious on this because it is genetic science, lets please think objectively before making a statement, i could be any one of these ethnicities in balkans so labeling me as Albanian right away seems a little subjective to me. Please take my autosomal dna out of this subject. Autosomally im Albanian because our last 5 generations mothers are albanian but that doesnt change my Y dna ofcourse.

    When did this BY-611 exactly came to Balkans? Or is it evolved in Balkans? İt is a subclade of z2103 right so when did it apart from z2103 exactly?
    Lots of Albanian families changed their identity during Ottoman empire, and started very early on through their Devshirme system.

    Anyway, problem is on all the ethnographic literature I came across D'lga is listed as being Albanian village. Going by the Albanian sources the D'lga inhabitants came there from Zabzun, Diber (a wholly Albanian settlement). Also it's not just your autosomal DNA, your closest match paternally currently is an Albanian from Skrapar region, matching you 32/37 and most differences seem to be on fast mutating markers. You're a lot more distant to the Greek sample that's currently on Yfull, for example.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Leka View Post
    Lots of Albanian families changed their identity during Ottoman empire, and started very early on through their Devshirme system.

    Anyway, problem is on all the ethnographic literature I came across D'lga is listed as being Albanian village. Going by the Albanian sources the D'lga inhabitants came there from Zabzun, Diber (a wholly Albanian settlement). Also it's not just your autosomal DNA, your closest match paternally currently is an Albanian from Skrapar region, matching you 32/37 and most differences seem to be on fast mutating markers. You're a lot more distant to the Greek sample that's currently on Yfull, for example.
    He matches me 32/37 ? That is a lot! i guess he is not tested on ftdna otherwise i would see him. İ guess 32/37 could even be a far relative from a few hundred years ago, am i correct? Can i see his results or his contact?

    By the way i don't get one thing. Majority of the Albanians are normally haplo E and J2 subclades, and these people have been living in Albania for more than 10.000 years as far as i know but this R1b arrived into the region from steppes, very late compared to E and J2, so who are the actual Albanians? İ mean who brought the language there, as we know so far Albanian language is a part of indo European languages as a unique and single branch but Albanian people have been living in the region both paternally and maternally much more earlier than the indo european invasion, so what language did Albanians spoke before the indo european invasion brought by R1b carriers?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by atalay34 View Post
    He matches me 32/37 ? That is a lot! i guess he is not tested on ftdna otherwise i would see him. İ guess 32/37 could even be a far relative from a few hundred years ago, am i correct? Can i see his results or his contact?

    By the way i don't get one thing. Majority of the Albanians are normally haplo E and J2 subclades, and these people have been living in Albania for more than 10.000 years as far as i know but this R1b arrived into the region from steppes, very late compared to E and J2, so who are the actual Albanians? İ mean who brought the language there, as we know so far Albanian language is a part of indo European languages as a unique and single branch but Albanian people have been living in the region both paternally and maternally much more earlier than the indo european invasion, so what language did Albanians spoke before the indo european invasion brought by R1b carriers?
    Congratulations on finding out you come from Albanians. I wish you happy studies and research in rediscovering your roots. You can begin by learning more about EV13 and J2b2-L283 since it seems you don't understand the matter too well at this stage.
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by atalay34 View Post
    He matches me 32/37 ? That is a lot! i guess he is not tested on ftdna otherwise i would see him. İ guess 32/37 could even be a far relative from a few hundred years ago, am i correct? Can i see his results or his contact?

    By the way i don't get one thing. Majority of the Albanians are normally haplo E and J2 subclades, and these people have been living in Albania for more than 10.000 years as far as i know but this R1b arrived into the region from steppes, very late compared to E and J2, so who are the actual Albanians? İ mean who brought the language there, as we know so far Albanian language is a part of indo European languages as a unique and single branch but Albanian people have been living in the region both paternally and maternally much more earlier than the indo european invasion, so what language did Albanians spoke before the indo european invasion brought by R1b carriers?
    Haplogroups E-V13, J2b-L283 and R1b-Z2103 all seem to have expanded into the Balkans during the Bronze Age, that's about 3000-5000 years ago. We don't know if they arrived separately or together, or which languages they initially spoke. So R1b did not arrive later than the other two. R1b-Z2103 has been found in Croatia from remains almost 5000 years old.

    When BY611 arrived to the Balkans, it is hard to say right now, but as I mentioned above, 3300 years ago it should have been already by the Mediterranean Sea. More people have to be tested in high resolution, and more ancient DNA has to be recovered.

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    Quote Originally Posted by atalay34 View Post
    He matches me 32/37 ? That is a lot! i guess he is not tested on ftdna otherwise i would see him. İ guess 32/37 could even be a far relative from a few hundred years ago, am i correct? Can i see his results or his contact?
    Yes, 32/37. The distance could be few hundred up to a thousand, hard to say exactly solely based on STRs.

    He tested on YSEQ. I can’t share his data, and he has no contact info. He was tested through a program that the Albanian Bloodlines project is running. Perhaps ask the admin you’re in contact with if he is able to share his STRs with you.

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    0 out of 7 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Congratulations on finding out you come from Albanians. I wish you happy studies and research in rediscovering your roots. You can begin by learning more about EV13 and J2b2-L283 since it seems you don't understand the matter too well at this stage.
    It looks like E-V13's direct parent was found in ancient north Africa, and J2b1 seems to be present in Bronze Age Levant (a distant brother from arriving with Iran related ancestry). While I know it's not direct proof, but there is a good chance both branches arrived from the Middle East no?

    THe earliest aDNA we have from the north Balkans are WHG-EHG blends of I2-M223 and R1b-V88 at Iron Gates. My educated guess would be that M269+ spread from western Ukraine during or after the Neolithic, since that's exactly where it turns up in aDNA.

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    10 out of 10 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1981 View Post
    It looks like E-V13's direct parent was found in ancient north Africa, and J2b1 seems to be present in Bronze Age Levant (a distant brother from arriving with Iran related ancestry). While I know it's not direct proof, but there is a good chance both branches arrived from the Middle East no?

    THe earliest aDNA we have from the north Balkans are WHG-EHG blends of I2-M223 and R1b-V88 at Iron Gates. My educated guess would be that M269+ spread from western Ukraine during or after the Neolithic, since that's exactly where it turns up in aDNA.
    And your point? I don't understand why you keep picking on the main Albanian haplogroups and pointing out their distant non-European origin. If we go back in time, none of these haplogroups you mention are native to Europe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1981 View Post
    It looks like E-V13's direct parent was found in ancient north Africa
    E-V13, or its direct ancestral clade, has been proven to be in the Balkans/Europe since the Neolithic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1981 View Post
    and J2b1 seems to be present in Bronze Age Levant (a distant brother from arriving with Iran related ancestry). While I know it's not direct proof, but there is a good chance both branches arrived from the Middle East no?
    Wrong! There is no good chance that J2b-L283 arrived from the Middle East/Levant, just because J2b-M205 was found there. The chances are much better from Iran/Caucuses area. You also need to understand that the split between these two J2b branches is almost as old as the split between R1a and R1b. Their distribution is also quite different.

    At the end of day it doesn't matter much where J2b-L283 came from. We know that it was found in Middle Bronze Age Dalmatia, and by all accounts in a Proto-Illyrian culture. I know you don't like this fact, because it appears you would prefer only "European" haplogroups to show up on these sites.

    Ps. Sorry to the OP for going off topic here, but this guy has a history of suggesting the main Albanian HGs are of "non-European origin", including at Anthrogenica.
    Y-DNA: J-L283
    Maternal Y-DNA: E-V13

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    4 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    And your point? I don't understand why you keep picking on the main Albanian haplogroups and pointing out their distant non-European origin. If we go back in time, none of these haplogroups you mention are native to Europe.



    E-V13, or its direct ancestral clade, has been proven to be in the Balkans/Europe since the Neolithic.



    Wrong! There is no good chance that J2b-L283 arrived from the Middle East/Levant, just because J2b-M205 was found there. The chances are much better from Iran/Caucuses area. You also need to understand that the split between these two J2b branches is almost as old as the split between R1a and R1b. Their distribution is also quite different.

    At the end of day it doesn't matter much where J2b-L283 came from. We know that it was found in Middle Bronze Age Dalmatia, and by all accounts in a Proto-Illyrian culture. I know you don't like this fact, because it appears you would prefer only "European" haplogroups to show up on these sites.

    Ps. Sorry to the OP for going off topic here, but this guy has a history of suggesting the main Albanian HGs are of "non-European origin", including at Anthrogenica.
    Absolutely correct both in terms of the genetics and this poster. He's just your typical Nordicist t-roll and why anthrogenica became another pit like theapricity and forum biodiversity. When they've completely ruined that, they'll try to move on and infect every other pop gen site, including this one.

    I really would love for there to be a time machine so they could come face to face with their "EUROPEAN" ancestors the Mesolithic y "I" carriers and the northern Eurasian "R" carriers :)


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Absolutely correct both in terms of the genetics and this poster. He's just your typical Nordicist t-roll and why anthrogenica became another pit like theapricity and forum biodiversity. When they've completely ruined that, they'll try to move on and infect every other pop gen site, including this one.

    I really would love for there to be a time machine so they could come face to face with their "EUROPEAN" ancestors the Mesolithic y "I" carriers and the northern Eurasian "R" carriers :)
    I bet [Clint Eastwood doppelgänger ]would be interested in our distant male relative [14k+/-]Villabruna "European" aka R1b-754.

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