LABERIA
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R1b-BY611>Z2705: Origins and Expansion
- Thread starter Ownstyler
- Start date
Lots of Albanian families changed their identity during Ottoman empire, and started very early on through their Devshirme system.Thank you for your repsonse,
i didn't read it in the ottoman archives personally, one of our relatives did, it is called "Tahrir" archives. Basically ottoman's population archive in order to collect taxes, it is in Ottoman script i can't read it anyway.
İn our D'liga village there are 3 different families, these three families are not relatives and they all came to the village from different places, we don't know which one is from Dibre.
My fathers family is definitely not one of these who turned to Turkishness in 20th century. My mothers family did thou. My maternal grandpa changed his identity to "Turk" to be able to immigrate to Turkey in 1950's but he was totally aware he is ethnic Albanian, it is just on papers he seemed Turk, my paternal side is totally different story thou, they identify themselves as Turk for centuries and they are known as Turk, all the neighbouring Albanian villages in Kumanova and Skopje call our village as Turk village, when im in Macedonia whenever i tell an Albanian im from D'liga the first thing they say is you guys are stubborn Turks who didn't learn any language for 600 yearsmy paternal side can only speak Turkish, just last 2 generations could speak Albanian and Macedonian because they moved to bigger cities like Kumanova and Skopje but the elders can speak only Turkish.
Our village is not a kind of village to be turned into Turkish by assimilation because it is so isolated on the mountains and there is no even road to the village, nobody even wanted to get married there because it is so isolated and poor condition, my grandpa always told me since there is no road on winter times they were trapped in the village for months.
if my paternal side turn out to be Albanian in origin i would not mind at all i would be proud of it because i already consider myself as Albanian except my paternal line but still let's be cautious on this because it is genetic science, lets please think objectively before making a statement, i could be any one of these ethnicities in balkans so labeling me as Albanian right away seems a little subjective to me. Please take my autosomal dna out of this subject. Autosomally im Albanian because our last 5 generations mothers are albanian but that doesnt change my Y dna ofcourse.
When did this BY-611 exactly came to Balkans? Or is it evolved in Balkans? İt is a subclade of z2103 right so when did it apart from z2103 exactly?
Anyway, problem is on all the ethnographic literature I came across D'lga is listed as being Albanian village. Going by the Albanian sources the D'lga inhabitants came there from Zabzun, Diber (a wholly Albanian settlement). Also it's not just your autosomal DNA, your closest match paternally currently is an Albanian from Skrapar region, matching you 32/37 and most differences seem to be on fast mutating markers. You're a lot more distant to the Greek sample that's currently on Yfull, for example.
atalay34
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- R-Z2705
He matches me 32/37 ? That is a lot! i guess he is not tested on ftdna otherwise i would see him. İ guess 32/37 could even be a far relative from a few hundred years ago, am i correct? Can i see his results or his contact?
By the way i don't get one thing. Majority of the Albanians are normally haplo E and J2 subclades, and these people have been living in Albania for more than 10.000 years as far as i know but this R1b arrived into the region from steppes, very late compared to E and J2, so who are the actual Albanians? İ mean who brought the language there, as we know so far Albanian language is a part of indo European languages as a unique and single branch but Albanian people have been living in the region both paternally and maternally much more earlier than the indo european invasion, so what language did Albanians spoke before the indo european invasion brought by R1b carriers?
Johane Derite
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Congratulations on finding out you come from Albanians. I wish you happy studies and research in rediscovering your roots. You can begin by learning more about EV13 and J2b2-L283 since it seems you don't understand the matter too well at this stage.
Haplogroups E-V13, J2b-L283 and R1b-Z2103 all seem to have expanded into the Balkans during the Bronze Age, that's about 3000-5000 years ago. We don't know if they arrived separately or together, or which languages they initially spoke. So R1b did not arrive later than the other two. R1b-Z2103 has been found in Croatia from remains almost 5000 years old.
When BY611 arrived to the Balkans, it is hard to say right now, but as I mentioned above, 3300 years ago it should have been already by the Mediterranean Sea. More people have to be tested in high resolution, and more ancient DNA has to be recovered.
Yes, 32/37. The distance could be few hundred up to a thousand, hard to say exactly solely based on STRs.
He tested on YSEQ. I can’t share his data, and he has no contact info. He was tested through a program that the Albanian Bloodlines project is running. Perhaps ask the admin you’re in contact with if he is able to share his STRs with you.
It looks like E-V13's direct parent was found in ancient north Africa, and J2b1 seems to be present in Bronze Age Levant (a distant brother from arriving with Iran related ancestry). While I know it's not direct proof, but there is a good chance both branches arrived from the Middle East no?
THe earliest aDNA we have from the north Balkans are WHG-EHG blends of I2-M223 and R1b-V88 at Iron Gates. My educated guess would be that M269+ spread from western Ukraine during or after the Neolithic, since that's exactly where it turns up in aDNA.
And your point? I don't understand why you keep picking on the main Albanian haplogroups and pointing out their distant non-European origin. If we go back in time, none of these haplogroups you mention are native to Europe.
E-V13, or its direct ancestral clade, has been proven to be in the Balkans/Europe since the Neolithic.
Wrong! There is no good chance that J2b-L283 arrived from the Middle East/Levant, just because J2b-M205 was found there. The chances are much better from Iran/Caucuses area. You also need to understand that the split between these two J2b branches is almost as old as the split between R1a and R1b. Their distribution is also quite different.
At the end of day it doesn't matter much where J2b-L283 came from. We know that it was found in Middle Bronze Age Dalmatia, and by all accounts in a Proto-Illyrian culture. I know you don't like this fact, because it appears you would prefer only "European" haplogroups to show up on these sites.
Ps. Sorry to the OP for going off topic here, but this guy has a history of suggesting the main Albanian HGs are of "non-European origin", including at Anthrogenica.
Angela
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Absolutely correct both in terms of the genetics and this poster. He's just your typical Nordicist t-roll and why anthrogenica became another pit like theapricity and forum biodiversity. When they've completely ruined that, they'll try to move on and infect every other pop gen site, including this one.
I really would love for there to be a time machine so they could come face to face with their "EUROPEAN" ancestors the Mesolithic y "I" carriers and the northern Eurasian "R" carriers
Silesian
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Absolutely correct both in terms of the genetics and this poster. He's just your typical Nordicist t-roll and why anthrogenica became another pit like theapricity and forum biodiversity. When they've completely ruined that, they'll try to move on and infect every other pop gen site, including this one.
I really would love for there to be a time machine so they could come face to face with their "EUROPEAN" ancestors the Mesolithic y "I" carriers and the northern Eurasian "R" carriers
I bet [Clint Eastwood doppelgänger ]would be interested in our distant male relative [14k+/-]Villabruna "European" aka R1b-754.
Angela
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Sorry, I'm not following. There were no Clint Eastwood looking WHG men, the "I" carriers. Nor does he look like what the ANE would have looked like. That long face, long nose, and refined features owe as much, and maybe more, to Anatolian farmers and CHG Caucasus types as to WHG or ANE people.
Or, Alessio Boni even more, maybe.
Definitely a combination of strains, but also definitely not WHG like or ANE like: different head shape, different face shape, different facial bones, different eye shape, not to mention that the phenotype combining light hair, light eyes and pale skin didn't come together until millennia afterwards.
People like "Andrew" are living in a toxic fantasy land.
Tutkun Arnaut
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If you are a Serb residing in Canada, here is the news: Serbs also have large linage of this haplogroups. If you are a self-loving Nordics' the news is that most of you were one race with east Asians some time ago. Nordics are not the real European's! Only haplogroup I is
hrvat22
Regular Member
If we follow YFull tree and branch Z2705 certainly has a source in southeast europe or it is very likely for now, as far Croatia is concerned there are three options, first and least probable is that subclade or subbranches of the same comes with Slavs(White Croats) to Croatia, second option is that is assimilated when Slavs (White Croats) coming to Croata and most likely option is that people with Z2705 subclade or branch coming to Croatia as Vlachs in Turkish period who today are Serbs or Croats.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2705/
In the Bosnian DNA project precisely south Serbia(sandžak area) there are a lot of people with branch BY611,
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewe...jwM&ll=43.0262511231849,19.97844456171879&z=8
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2705/
In the Bosnian DNA project precisely south Serbia(sandžak area) there are a lot of people with branch BY611,
possible and with this R-Z2705 branch.
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewe...jwM&ll=43.0262511231849,19.97844456171879&z=8
Some updates on R-Z2705:
1- There are now 4 parallel Z2705* lines on YFull. It is likely that one of these (393=12) is negative for an additional SNP which YFull does not use.
2- It seems there are a few new 393=12 haplotypes now. The ones with 392=11 are still widespread all over the Balkans, while the rest seem more concentrated in Albania and ex-Yugoslavia.
3- There is an additional SNP at the Y32147 level: Y125049. It is not very likely, but still possible that some Y32147+ might be Y125049-. The position of this SNP is currently based on only a few high coverage samples, so some single SNP tests on YSEQ might reveal novelties, or at least consolidate it.
Some interesting haplotypes from different projects:
From Treviso, Italy - 12 24 14 11 11-11 12 12 11 13 13 29 15 9-10 10 11 25 15 19 30 14-15-16-18 11 12 19-23 15 17 18 17 36-37 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 21 20 14 12 11 13 10 11 12 12
From Hungary - 12 24 15 11 11-11 12 12 13 14 13 30 16 9-9 11 11 25 15 19 30 15-15-15-18 11 12 19-23 15 16 17 17 37-37 13 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 22-23 16 10 12 12 16 8 12 22 20 14 12 11 13 10 11 12 12
From Sicily - 12 23 14 10 11-11 12 12 12 13 13 29
The Treviso haplotype has only GD=4/32 with Juran, Srcak, Croatia. It is likely that these two form a clade, and they are pretty close geographically too. It would be very useful to have a SNP test for one such haplotype, to see if it is under BY611. If you know someone, let me know, I will help.
The Sicily haplotype is only Y12 so the confidence of it being BY611 is not very high. However, Sicily has several other confirmed BY611, and other R1b clades are not as common as elsewhere in Italy.
With the current data, it seems the R-Z2705 TMRCA lived somewhere in the western Balkans around 1700 ybp. It is also possible that the 393=12 & 392=11 branch could have moved to a more central area early on, and spread in all directions from there. In any case, there should be at least 4-5 393=12 samples on YFull before we can reach reliable conclusions. I would like to encourage all project leaders to push their members with 393=12 to do BigY/NGS.
1- There are now 4 parallel Z2705* lines on YFull. It is likely that one of these (393=12) is negative for an additional SNP which YFull does not use.
2- It seems there are a few new 393=12 haplotypes now. The ones with 392=11 are still widespread all over the Balkans, while the rest seem more concentrated in Albania and ex-Yugoslavia.
3- There is an additional SNP at the Y32147 level: Y125049. It is not very likely, but still possible that some Y32147+ might be Y125049-. The position of this SNP is currently based on only a few high coverage samples, so some single SNP tests on YSEQ might reveal novelties, or at least consolidate it.
Some interesting haplotypes from different projects:
From Treviso, Italy - 12 24 14 11 11-11 12 12 11 13 13 29 15 9-10 10 11 25 15 19 30 14-15-16-18 11 12 19-23 15 17 18 17 36-37 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 21 20 14 12 11 13 10 11 12 12
From Hungary - 12 24 15 11 11-11 12 12 13 14 13 30 16 9-9 11 11 25 15 19 30 15-15-15-18 11 12 19-23 15 16 17 17 37-37 13 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 22-23 16 10 12 12 16 8 12 22 20 14 12 11 13 10 11 12 12
From Sicily - 12 23 14 10 11-11 12 12 12 13 13 29
The Treviso haplotype has only GD=4/32 with Juran, Srcak, Croatia. It is likely that these two form a clade, and they are pretty close geographically too. It would be very useful to have a SNP test for one such haplotype, to see if it is under BY611. If you know someone, let me know, I will help.
The Sicily haplotype is only Y12 so the confidence of it being BY611 is not very high. However, Sicily has several other confirmed BY611, and other R1b clades are not as common as elsewhere in Italy.
With the current data, it seems the R-Z2705 TMRCA lived somewhere in the western Balkans around 1700 ybp. It is also possible that the 393=12 & 392=11 branch could have moved to a more central area early on, and spread in all directions from there. In any case, there should be at least 4-5 393=12 samples on YFull before we can reach reliable conclusions. I would like to encourage all project leaders to push their members with 393=12 to do BigY/NGS.
Kelmendasi
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BY611>Z2705 coming with Slavs is very unlikely, I think we could say impossible judging by the current data that we have. It has no diversity or frequency whatsoever in the area that we believe Slavs came from, or in any non-Balkan Slavic nation for that matter. Everything is pointing towards an origin in the Balkans for Z2705. BY611 itself though may have origin more west going by basal clades.
The BY611 among these Bosniaks is Z2705 like other Balkan BY611. However, these samples are overwhelmingly of paternal Albanian origin. Most descend from clans such as the Kelmendi, Trieshi, Koja etc. They have now adopted a Bosniak identity
Aspurg
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OK, with 67 STR's I have some strong SNP predictions for them:
1) They have dys572=10, modal for BY611, modal for both BY250 and Y5587 is dys572=11. This is a slow STR. They should be BY611+ (also based on dys385=11-11)
2) DYS446=14, modal for all Z2705 including dys392=11 is DYS446=15+, so they are Z2705- (or at least some other SNP at that level that the current samples are all positive on)
3) They lack DYS565=11 (modal for R-Y30192) so they are Y30192-.
4) DYS446=14 indicates they are CTS9219+ because up until Y5592* DYS446=13 is modal.
Italian and Croat share with American YF06082 DYS549=9-10 so they might form a clade with him.
So treviso Italian, Hungarian and Juran should be BY611+, Y30192-, Z2705-.
The only other CTS9219* with modal dys572=10 is some R-BY46965 but they have standard dys385=11/10-14 Swiss and french they are 14/67 but also have modals and old values of dys389i=14, dys464a=16, dys464cd=18-18, it's very unlikely they are of this clade.
Juran is 5/33 with Italian, sharing some like DYS549=9-10, dys439=11 so it seems they are related. Hungarian also shares with them dys464d=18 though he seems distant, still he also has STR's suggesting BY611+, Y30192-, Z2705-.
It seems you are of Illyrian ancestry if this is confirmed (and I cannot see how these are not BY611+, Y30192-, Z2705-, and very likely Juran alongside).
Silesian
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It will be interesting to see the placement of future archaeogentic samples with Y5592*Isn't the current sample from Sweden?
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y5592/
I do not remember if we mentioned two haplotypes from an anonymous study of 884 Italians, probably someone mentioned them. Both are confirmed as P311-
[TABLE="width: 1774"]
[TR]
[TD]; SampleID[/TD]
[TD]Population[/TD]
[TD]DYS393[/TD]
[TD]DYS390[/TD]
[TD]DYS19[/TD]
[TD]DYS391[/TD]
[TD]DYS385a[/TD]
[TD]DYS385b[/TD]
[TD]DYS426[/TD]
[TD]DYS388[/TD]
[TD]DYS439[/TD]
[TD]DYS389I[/TD]
[TD]DYS392[/TD]
[TD]DYS389II[/TD]
[TD]DYS458[/TD]
[TD]DYS437[/TD]
[TD]DYS448[/TD]
[TD]GATAH4[/TD]
[TD]DYS456[/TD]
[TD]DYS438[/TD]
[TD]DYS635[/TD]
[TD]HG (ISOGG 2009)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]333[/TD]
[TD]Grosseto/Siena[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]24[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]14[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]11[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]11[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]11[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]13[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]13[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]29[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]17[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]15[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]19[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]15[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]23[/TD]
[TD]R1b1b2-M269 (xP311)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]712[/TD]
[TD]Catania[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]24[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]14[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]11[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]11[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]11[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]13[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]14[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]29[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]16[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]15[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]19[/TD]
[TD]NA[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]15[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]24[/TD]
[TD]R1b1b2-M269 (xP311)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
I believe so. But with 4800 years old connections, I wouldn't be surprised if TMRCA lived in the Steppe. Which future samples are you referring to?
The Catania one yes, but I had not noticed the Siena one, thank you! Hard to tell from STRs, as usual, but he doesn't seem to have any important offmodals for BY611 at least.