Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[Hawk]

Leave wiki bro. Read Wilkes for starters and go from there. Besides few settlements from around Prizren and the Bernjica group from more east, the rest of Dardania falls within the Glasinaci-Mati sphere. Make of that what you wish.

I don't know whom you are referring/adressing, but, it cannot be said so clearly, Glasinac-Mat was present on western shores of Dardanian realm.

All of the types of jewelery from the 3rd burial horizon were in fashion only during theearly phase of the Hallstatt pariod. At the Glasinac plateau, such types of jewelery werediscoverd in the graves determined as Glasinac IVb and dated at the period 750-625 BC.Because of discontinuity between the 2nd and the 3rd burial horizon at Latinsko groblje, it canbe presumed that the population shift at the Pešter plateau happened about 700 BC, whenthe local population (most probably Dardanians) were suppressed by some westernnewcomers, who are thought to be the Autariatae. The grave goods from the 4th horizontestify about a warior culture, which is not as rich as the one from the 3rd horizon. However,cultural continuity is obvious and can be seen in funerary practices and pottery production.The graves from the 4th burial horizon can be synchronized with the Glasinac IVc phase (c.ca625-500 BC), because in the mounds II and III at Latinsko groblje and in some of the moundsfrom the neighbouring sites (Crnoča-Piskavac and Glogovik-Humke) there were some graveswith grave goods characteristic for the Glasinac Va phase (Летица 1982: 15).In the thin layer above the stone covering of the mounds at Latinsko groblje, therewere some fragments of imported Greek pottery dated to the 4th century BC (Sladić 1998:268). The find of a small arc fibula (length 2,4 cm) of Thracian type from tumulus II at Latinskogroblje (Fig. 6)(Jevtić 1990: 116, kat.150) is from the same period or slightly later time incomparison to the black-brown varnished bowls of Greek production, which came mostly fromcremated burials at several sites at the Pešter plateau. The fibula is dated at the end of 4th or 3rd century BC (see also Vasić 2000: 15-19)

https://www.academia.edu/2495871/SO...AVES_IN_NOVI_PAZAR_AREA_SOUTH_WESTERN_SERBIA_

Conclusions.
The Novi Pazar region is a boundary area, where zones of influence from Glasinac-Mati cultural complex (ethnically identified with the Autariatae) and aboriginalDaradaninan populations met and even overlapped. Connection of this area with the originalwestern zone of the Glasinac culture is much stronger during the period that immediatelysucceeds the penetration of the newcomers to the Pešter plateau. The Glasinac culturestarted to diminish in the last decades of 4th century BC. Its branches in Serbia, although vitalduring the whole 5th century BC, are so conservative, that it is hard to separate older culturalachievements from the new ones (Срејовић 1981: 61). Starting from the 5th century BC up tothe 2nd century BC, the influence of the Autariatae on the Dardanians weakened. TheDardanian society became class, its culture being under the Greek infuence, which isconfirmed by the numerous finds of the Greek pottery and the pottery locally produced under the Greek influence, and even by the find of princely grave under the St. Peter and Paul’schurch near Novi Pazar

On top of them from the North appeared the Bassarabi Thracians much latter. Perhaps these were the Triballians. Despite that, they were not solely Brnjica but Belegis-Gava II was on top of it during Late Bronze Age. Many Brnjica people were pushed south, perhaps the Ulanci are one of the purer Brnjica descendands.

 

[Johane Derite]

As for archaeological cultures that fall within the territory of Dardania, there are at least 4 significant ones. Glasinac-Mati is the western one, then there is the older Brnjica culture, then the original channeled ware that entered in the EBA-EIA period which reached all the way to Mat, and then a later channeled ware derived group with low tumuli that came from more east.

Aspar argued that the Brnjica fits with paeonians that were pushed south, channelled ware proper with Dardani.

As for the later low tumuli people with some sort of Moesians or Triballi or Thraco-Cimmerians.

One thing which makes Dardani being associated with Glasinac proper difficult IMO is the appearance of names like Dardanoi in Anatolia, since these for now do seem to be related to the appearance of knobbed channelled ware in Troy.

 

[mount123]

Two reasons;
- today's Z2705 diversity lies in that region
- we have a Iapygian Z2103+ sample (which I don't think it jumped ship from Macedonia)

Besides, all Monte samples come from one site - Velika Gruda. Probably all one clan. Like testing one of our major Malesia clans now days and calming the whole of Malesia belongs to that linage. We need more data points to come to a more reasonable conclusion.

Z2103+ has also been found in Proto-Armenians, Paeonians, Urartians, Latins etc. it was a major haplogroup in many territories of groups from Eurasia. Modern diversity and frequency are not confident indicators as to what the aDNA looked like, if taken solely into account, I think we are past these ideas. The one site argument is weak considering the whole complex of Cetina and Dinaric Culture has 0% Z2103. The data is right in front of us and we clearly know what this complex genetically consists of.

Just as I have said before even after the 500th sample it will be the same type of argumentation. "We need further southern samples from Illyrii proprie dicti", we then got those and then they proceed with: "those are only from one site", another bunch of samples from different sites: "we need more" .... it is the same pattern.

We now have a substantial number of samples from the East Adriatic, the Illyrian core, and the picture is clear: the number just gets bigger and bigger.
Also, as I have said in my earlier reply to you: there were always expansions and mobility of different groups of people hence why finding L283, Z2013, V13 in neighbouring cultures won't be surprising.

Let's not forget that we will get another bunch of samples from the area and the picture won't hardly change.

 

[mount123]

delete double post​

 

[PaleoRevenge]

One of the oldest documented instances of an Albanian name comes from the 11th century Paulician leader "Leka" (Λέκας) in Bulgaria.


Saldzhiev speculates that there may have been a proto-Albanian population in this mountainous region, referring also to the oikonym "Shtipon" that appears in a mountain village, and suggests Proto-Albanian mediation into Old Slavic.


He assumes that Proto-Albanians must have migrated to this region at some point, but what if there was no migration and there was simply a proto-Albanian substrate in this region?

Maybe this is the reason the Albanians are first mentioned as half-believers by an old Bulgarian text. Because they were at the time of the Pualician sect.

It can be seen that there are various languages on earth. Of them, there are five Orthodox languages: Bulgarian, Greek, Syrian, Iberian (Georgian) and Russian. Three of these have Orthodox alphabets: Greek, Bulgarian and Iberian. There are twelve languages of half-believers: Alamanians, Franks, Magyars (Hungarians), Indians, Jacobites, Armenians, Saxons, Lechs (Poles), Arbanasi (Albanians), Croatians, Hizi, Germans.

 

[td120]

Good grief...
The verification of whatever I posted is just several clicks away with google. The "endless" Bulgarian text can be translated decently with Google Translate , a simple copy/paste operation.

Have a good day.

P.S. The Albanians are listed as half-believers because they were simply , for the most parts, Catholics . This was already discussed on more than one occasion.

 

[Johane Derite]

td120 is a native speaker and knowledgable in bulgarian language, we should appreciate his insights, even if you personally disagree here or there, since it is easy to mistake toponyms, etc, when we are not native speakers of that language.

 

[broder]

Z2103+ has also been found in Proto-Armenians, Paeonians, Urartians, Latins etc. it was a major haplogroup in many territories of groups from Eurasia. Modern diversity and frequency are not confident indicators as to what the aDNA looked like, if taken solely into account, I think we are past these ideas. The one site argument is weak considering the whole complex of Cetina and Dinaric Culture has 0% Z2103. The data is right in front of us and we clearly know what this complex genetically consists of.

Just as I have said before even after the 500th sample it will be the same type of argumentation. "We need further southern samples from Illyrii proprie dicti", we then got those and then they proceed with: "those are only from one site", another bunch of samples from different sites: "we need more" .... it is the same pattern.

We now have a substantial number of samples from the East Adriatic, the Illyrian core, and the picture is clear: the number just gets bigger and bigger.
Also, as I have said in my earlier reply to you: there were always expansions and mobility of different groups of people hence why finding L283, Z2013, V13 in neighbouring cultures won't be surprising.

Let's not forget that we will get another bunch of samples from the area and the picture won't hardly change.

Z2013 exists even in Punjab today but that's not relevant to our discussion here. The Iapygians are another matter however and come into play because they got there from the western Balkans, most likely from Monte region or Albania. Also because the only sister branches to Y23373>Z2705, one of the major CTS9219 Balkan lineages, that split during bronze age (1300BCE), have been found in the Italian Peninsula (two to be exact). Can we confidently say that they didn't get there during that period? I think not. Unfortunately those Iapygians samples were of low quality so we couldn't extract anything more out of them.

We literally only got Iron Age samples from one site in Albania and you have already made up your mind? Unfortunately I am not one of those "in" with the leaks so I will just wait when samples are published.

Anyway, I may not be as bright as some of you here, so help me out understand where are you getting at?

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Good grief...
The verification of whatever I posted is just several clicks away with google. The "endless" Bulgarian text can be translated decently with Google Translate , a simple copy/paste operation.

Have a good day.

P.S. The Albanians are listed as half-believers because they were simply , for the most parts, Catholics . This was already discussed on more than one occasion.

I did just for the sake of it: "Lazarovden is celebrated by: Lazar, Lazo, Lazarina, Lazarka, Lalka, Lalko, Lalo, Lala, Lalyo, Lalyu."
This is nothing. There is no lineage decent proven, the obvious explanation is the adaptation of the name with the Lazarovden tradition. Christianity is full such copy and paste older names and traditions and merge with the old saints, and Christian Lore. It does not prove Santa Claus is a biblical concept and derivative.

Happy lazar, la-la-la hallal day.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Some major issues. If we take the core center of Croat-Montenegrin-Kukes Illyrian overlap and to push it to the Albanian medieval and Albanian Ottoman cluster, you need heavy Anatolian-Levant mix and a small Slavic tilt. But if you take the Thracian Iron Age and give it Slavic mixture with only a tiny bit of Anatolian-Levant push, it lands perfectly on the Alb medieval and Alb Ottoman samples.

 

[1337_]

Kosovo area, especially Rrafshi i Dukagjinit / Western Kosovo (where there lived historically an Albanian population and which is actually the area that gained an Albanian majority first during the Ottoman period) was without a doubt Glasinac-Mati culture and similar to the population in North-Eastern Albania just some KM away. Names can come and go. Doesn't prove the Dardani were some Thracian tribe.

Dardania in Anatolia could be the result of Balkan migration there. Dardapara was a Thracian area in Dardania https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardapara , and it could be a Paleo-Balkan word or common Thracian-Illyrian word. suffix 'Para' is not used in Illyrian placenames like it is in Thracian. Or it could be Thracian influence. Western Dardania totally lacks these placenames in suffix 'Para' , they are mainly found at the Dacian/Thracian border AFAIK.

Bardylis is also a name that could be Illyrian or common-Paleo Balkan origin. 'Bard' coming from Messapian or Albanian Grey/White.

The name Bardylis is considered to be connected with the Albanian adjective i bardhë "white", ultimately from Proto-Indo-European *bʰór(h₁)ǵos < *bʰreh₁ǵ- ("to gleam, shine"). It has been associated to the Messapic names Barzidihi, Barduli and Barletta.^{[12][13][14][15]} The explanation of the name Bardylis as a combination of Albanian i bardhë and yll "star" is considered a folk etymology.^[16] German linguist Paul Kretschmer argues that the name Bardylis is connected with the Messapic word "bardulos", which according to him means "grey".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bardylis

 

[mount123]

Z2013 exist even in Punjab today but that's not relevant to our discussion here.

We literally only got Iron Age samples from one site in Albania and you have already made up your mind? Unfortunately I am not one of those "in" with the leaks so I will just wait when samples are published.

This is just whataboutism and taking out of context.

1) I specifically addressed ancient groups of people like Paeonians etc. since they are in somewhat closer geographic proximity to core Illyrian territory.

2) The aDNA picture of the Illyrian core is clear. We have a lot of samples from a wide territory. What you are constantly repeating is not an argument, as I have said, it is just refusing scientific data that is already here. This is delusional.

3) Different lineages appearing in neighbouring cultures and beyond in what is a long time frame is not surprising. Mobility, migrations, expansions, trade etc. being the key factors here.

4) We will get lots of new samples and the picture won't change.

At the end of the day it is the academic papers that matter, that is all I'm going to say.

 

[1337_]

I am not saying the Dardani did not have Thracian influence, which is very possible. Though it does not seem that 'Rrafshi i Dukagjinit' has ever been some kind of Thracian territory which is actually historically the core territory of Albanians within Kosovo itself. Peak of Thracian / Dacian territory in Dardania was Nish area and Eastern Dardania. Although some even referred to Nish and Shkup as Illyrian cities.

 

[1337_]

Some major issues. If we take the core center of Croat-Montenegrin-Kukes Illyrian overlap and to push it to the Albanian medieval and Albanian Ottoman cluster, you need heavy Anatolian-Levant mix and a small Slavic tilt. But if you take the Thracian Iron Age and give it Slavic mixture with only a tiny bit of Anatolian-Levant push, it lands perfectly on the Alb medieval and Alb Ottoman samples.

Why would you use some Albanian medieval and Ottoman cluster and not modern Albanian ? It's obvious these clustering are of bottle neck effects and it's obvious Illyrian samples match Albanians better. Thracians clustering like Greeks/Albanians is just genetic similarity to Illyrians , Greeks etc. Even many Thracians cluster like Italians from what I saw. Unless I saw wrong.

 

[broder]

This is just whataboutism and taking out of context.

1) I specifically addressed ancient groups of people like Paeonians etc. since they are in somewhat closer geographic proximity to core Illyrian territory.

2) The aDNA picture of the Illyrian core is clear. We have a lot of samples from a wide territory. What you are constantly repeating is not an argument, as I have said, it is just refusing scientific data that is already here. This is delusional.

3) Different lineages appearing in neighbouring cultures and beyond in what is a long time frame is not surprising. Mobility, migrations, expansions, trade etc. being the key factors here.

4) We will get lots of new samples and the picture won't change.

At the end of the day it is the academic papers that matter, that is all I'm going to say.

Sure.

What's your point then? Bring your ideas forth. Let us see what you got. What are the linguistic implications in this model of yours.

 

[1337_]

Leave wiki bro. Read Wilkes for starters and go from there. Besides few settlements from around Prizren and the Bernjica group from more east, the rest of Dardania falls within the Glasinaci-Mati sphere. Make of that what you wish.

That's what I'm saying . 'Rrafshi i Dukagjinit' was Illyrian territory and Glasinac-Mati culture. I don't trust everything wiki says. I know how wiki works and how nonsense it can be.
.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Some major issues. If we take the core center of Croat-Montenegrin-Kukes Illyrian overlap and to push it to the Albanian medieval and Albanian Ottoman cluster, you need heavy Anatolian-Levant mix and a small Slavic tilt. But if you take the Thracian Iron Age and give it Slavic mixture with only a tiny bit of Anatolian-Levant push, it lands perfectly on the Alb medieval and Alb Ottoman samples.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Why would you use some Albanian medieval and Ottoman cluster and not modern Albanian ? It's obvious these clustering are of bottle neck effects and it's obvious Illyrian samples match Albanians better. Thracians clustering like Greeks/Albanians is just genetic similarity to Illyrians , Greeks etc. Even many Thracians cluster like Italians from what I saw. Unless I saw wrong.

Because than we would skip a time frame. For the Illyrian model to work, early Albanians have to mix with ME to reach the Mdv and Ottoman cluster, than in the last 200 years absorb Slavic DNA to land where they are now. This is chronology makes no sense and it does not match historical knowledge.

The Thracian model actually matches historical chronology.

I am only pointing out what the present database shows, the picture always gets more clearer with more data and is bound to evolve. But I am not seeing the touchdown celebration, some of the folks from yesterday were taunting. The Thracian model actually works better.

 

[1337_]

I don't know whom you are referring/adressing, but, it cannot be said so clearly, Glasinac-Mat was present on western shores of Dardanian realm.





On top of them from the North appeared the Bassarabi Thracians much latter. Perhaps these were the Triballians. Despite that, they were not solely Brnjica but Belegis-Gava II was on top of it during Late Bronze Age. Many Brnjica people were pushed south, perhaps the Ulanci are one of the purer Brnjica descendands.

Author: Milos Jevtic


The text proves absolutely nothing bro. Just people who have an agenda to claim that Kosova was inhabited by Thracians and not Illyrians. Some proto-Thracians/Dacians probably did spread out there obviously and brought some cultures just like Illyrians.

 

[Hawk]

That's what I'm saying . 'Rrafshi i Dukagjinit' was Illyrian territory and Glasinac-Mati culture. I don't trust everything wiki says. I know how wiki works and how nonsense it can be.
.

I don't know if you are self-reflective but it's you who is quoting wikipedia, and it was Wilkes who said Albanians cannot be descendants of Illyrians. Derite made a solid contribution on this matter, there were 4 different cultures in Dardania and certainly Channeled-Ware descended was at its core not Glasinac-Mati.