Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[torzio]

so its from North Germany ...................central and southern Germany was celtic in bronze age

 

[epirus1000]

Po de, se ti ja u ke majt qirin atyne para 5000 vjeteve - kah i kane ra dajres.

Cinamaka individual perpara 4500 vitesh, blonde me blue eyes (Lazarides et al 2022), R1b, si shumica absolute e R1b se asaj kohe. I therret gjenetika Kuksianet ne Britani, bashkohet R1b e proto-ilireve me R1b britanike :bigsmile:

 

[mount123]

Albanian language derives from R-Z2103, Central Balkan EBA and MBA locals. Ulanci carried R-CTS7556, and Ulanci group had some direct parallels to Paracin and Brnjica groups. It's obvious Central Balkans became a refugium for R-Z2103 already based on N.Macedonian results.

The strongest Albanian cluster is R-Z2705, it is several times more numerous than any other Late Antiquity/Early Medieval cluster in Albanians. Lumping E-V13 and J-L283 clusters with TMRCA of 3000-4000 years together is ridiculous, as these could have had completely different histories.

Southern Albania also was run by Z2103, it was the Brygian territory, and the Matt painted pottery, which also influenced Ulanci originates there.

LBA saw arrival of some Gava people (before they would form the Psenicevo and related cultures in EIA), then the Psenicevo itself. Latest was the arrival of Illyrians from the West, who have nothing to do with the original Dardanians.
Basically Illyrians are as Dardanian as British are derived of the Bretons. But they formed the ruling class and according to reports even ruled the indigenous Dardanians with an iron fist.

The area also sees remnants of non-Illyrian, non-Thracian speakers surviving even in 2nd century AD. These may or may not have been related to Albanians, but there were obviously various survivors in the Central Balkans.

There is a small chance Albanian derives of some indigenous remnants in Albania, but this is made almost impossible by the linguistic and historical arguments (Matzinger etc.).

Given the already present results I think you and Hawk will turn out very right in this regard (especially bolded part).

 

[1337_]

He just said Kukes wasn't Albanian in the middle ages, basically. I think it's safe to ignore the clown.

Depends when in the middle ages. Some coastal areas of Albania don't seem to of been inhabited by Albanians after Bulgar incursion. I could be wrong. People would of also fled to the mountains to escape violence. Albania was also inhabited by many Illyrian tribes.

 

[1337_]

Cinamaka individual perpara 4500 vitesh, blonde me blue eyes (Lazarides et al 2022), R1b, si shumica absolute e R1b se asaj kohe. I therret gjenetika Kuksianet ne Britani, bashkohet R1b e proto-ilireve me R1b britanike :bigsmile:

Europeans had darker skin, hair and eye pigmentation 5,000 years ago - until natural selection resulted in lighter pigmentation, according to a new study of DNA from ancient skeletons. Anthropologists at Johannes Gutenberg University Mainz (JGU) in Germany and geneticists at University College London (UCL), worked in collaboration with archaeologists from Berlin and Kiev to analyse ancient DNA from skeletons. They found that natural selection has had a significant effect on the human genome even in the past 5,000 years, resulting in sustained changes to the appearance of people.

https://www.business-standard.com/a...-and-hair-5-000-years-ago-114031100692_1.html

 

[broder]

Cinamaka individual perpara 4500 vitesh, blonde me blue eyes (Lazarides et al 2022), R1b, si shumica absolute e R1b se asaj kohe. I therret gjenetika Kuksianet ne Britani, bashkohet R1b e proto-ilireve me R1b britanike :bigsmile:

EBA I14689 Cinamak individual eshte puro Yamnaya steppe per nga adn-ja autosomale, gllup. This guy is actually L23- so probably a PF7563 sample. Either way, still an early steppe individual.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

It looks like among Southern Illyrians we should expect to find R1b-Z2103 and J2a descended from Matt-Painted Pottery Culture, those 2 samples from Plaosnik Ohrid should reflect that. But, were they the original Enchelei, the burial described by Pasko Kuzman among Enchelei/Sessarethi looks alien to Matt-Painted Pottery Culture.



I would like to get classical age samples to see whether the Balkan-Danubian influence on Devoll classiffied as Kanellure was real, and whether E-V13 shows up.

R1b-Z210 should be seen as the parent of the Messapians. It's the haplogroup that would link bronze age Dardanian group of Kalabri, to the Kalabri of Messapia. Personally I think the BA Dardani extended into northern Albania before being pushed out to sea.

 

[Hawk]

R1b-Z210 should be seen as the parent of the Messapians. It's the haplogroup that would link bronze age Dardanian group of Kalabri, to the Kalabri of Messapia. Personally I think the BA Dardani extended into northern Albania before being pushed out to sea.

I was thinking about that too. That would be quite interesting outcome. So, some sort of Pre Proto-Albanoid was spoken in EBA Albania before Illyrians pushed them, and the only survivor was the Proto-Albanoid from Central Balkans?!

Albanian is a problematic language to classify, we don't really know if it's directly coming from Yamnaya or some CWC/Bell-Beaker language. But, who knows. Chances are quite high on that scenario though.

The only thing which we haven't quite figure out, is Bronze Age origin of E-V13. I am convinced and leaning on Eastern Urnfielder because it makes the most sense to me. But, perhaps i am wrong and we can get surprised. Vatin Culture as the center of it makes sense to me, but, who knows what surprise awaits us. Perhaps it could have been somewhere in North-East Greece, North-West Turkey/South-Eastern Bulgaria which took the chance after the LBA collapse to invade.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

And how exactly do we know that ?

Kukes sample is from 900 AD. Kukes corridor region is part of Kruja-Komani culture, see map.

This is ethnic Albania 1200 AD. Shtike and Dukat are way out of range.

 

[Johane Derite]

.

I made these highlights a while ago, but it wasn't so obvious back then as it is now.

The coincidence of the Komani-Kruja sites with the Latin placenames (of a Dalmatian variety) makes no sense if the Komani-Kruja was the proto-Albanian speaking culture.

Why would the proto-Albanian culture be naming their places s in a dalmatian strain of balkan latin?

 

[PaleoRevenge]

I was thinking about that too. That would be quite interesting outcome. So, some sort of Pre Proto-Albanoid was spoken in EBA Albania before Illyrians pushed them, and the only survivor was the Proto-Albanoid from Central Balkans?!

Albanian is a problematic language to classify, we don't really know if it's directly coming from Yamnaya or some CWC/Bell-Beaker language. But, who knows. Chances are quite high on that scenario though.

The only thing which we haven't quite figure out, is Bronze Age origin of E-V13. I am convinced and leaning on Eastern Urnfielder because it makes the most sense to me. But, perhaps i am wrong and we can get surprised. Vatin Culture as the center of it makes sense to me, but, who knows what surprise awaits us. Perhaps it could have been somewhere in North-East Greece, North-West Turkey/South-Eastern Bulgaria which took the chance after the LBA collapse to invade.

History can be cyclical in a ironic fashion. Once Eurasia was home to the R1b and R1a tribes, it become Mongoloid overtime, than IE brought EGH mix back all the way to the Altays, than lost ground again, than the Russians brought back Europoid mixture. The Germanic expansions towards Ukraine and Poland (Visigoths, Vikings, 3rd Reich, and the push backs from the Huns(with Slavic infantry), the Soviets, etc....

 

[Hawk]

I made these highlights a while ago, but it wasn't so obvious back then as it is now.
The coincidence of the Komani-Kruja sites with the Latin placenames (of a Dalmatian variety) makes no sense if the Komani-Kruja was the proto-Albanian speaking culture.
Why would the proto-Albanian culture be naming their places s in a dalmatian strain of balkan latin?

Derite, what is the chance of the name of Dardanians of Anatolia with the Dardanians of Balkans to be just a pure coincidence?

We can attest that they were a real Late Middle Bronze Age/Late Bronze Age population somewhere in North-Western Anatolia since Ancient Egyptians mention them as one of the Hittite allies.

 

[Johane Derite]

Derite, what is the chance of the name of Dardanians of Anatolia with the Dardanians of Balkans to be just a pure coincidence?

We can attest that they were a real Late Middle Bronze Age/Late Bronze Age population somewhere in North-Western Anatolia since Ancient Egyptians mention them as one of the Hittite allies.

Its always possible, but the reason I think it is improbable is also the appearance of Mysians-Moesians, Brygians-Phrygians, Thyni-Bithyni, etc, if it was just one i would think its more possible, but when there are a couple of them, and also ancient authors already mentioning the connection, then it makes me favour that them not being connected is more improbable than the other way around.

 

[Hawk]

Its always possible, but the reason I think it is improbable is also the appearance of Mysians-Moesians, Brygians-Phrygians, Thyni-Bithyni, etc, if it was just one i would think its more possible, but when there are a couple of them, and also ancient authors already mentioning the connection, then it makes me favour that them not being connected is more improbable than the other way around.

What if these people migrated the other way around? I mean, could a more pure EEF population survive on both ends of Dardanelles? I know archaeology is totally against this. Chances are slim for this to have happened, but who knows.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Serbs, Croats and Bosnians should plot on the orange line if they mixed with Illyrians, but the Illyrians they mixed plotted them on the yellow line. So the Illyrians had drastically changed. Would be nice to visually see the Byzantine Croatian sample plotted in this graph.

We have the data, why not update this graph with the Croat Byzantine samples and the Croat Roman samples, it would complete the story of what happened to the Illyrians. I suspect they had become shifted to the green circle. All the Alb post-medieval and the only true medieval(the Korca 1400 AD) samples are all northern shifted, back toward the original Illyrians.

If we assume early Albanians start as a Thracian+east Paeonian population (E-V13+ R1b-Z2103), than the early Tosk group would have been genetically largely a population that derived from this newly arrived Thracian derived group that is expanding on largely Slavic speaking territory.

Early Tosks likely occupied this region.

The Korca sample would derive from the south-eastern most Tosk group expanding into the the Slavic speaking Morava valley. The medieval Alb sample that clusters the most near the ancient Illyrians is the 1400 AD Korca sample. And it is an almost perfect 70% Thracian 30% Slavic profile.

 

[Johane Derite]

What if these people migrated the other way around? I mean, could a more pure EEF population survive on both ends of Dardanelles? I know archaeology is totally against this. Chances are slim for this to have happened, but who knows.

The ancient authors that mentioned the connection between the balkan dardani and anatolian dardani did claim them to be colonists from anatolia actually.

I also remember Herodotus claiming somewhere that the anatolian mysians overran all of europe at one point, but didnt think much of it. Ill try find it.

 

[Johane Derite]

What if these people migrated the other way around? I mean, could a more pure EEF population survive on both ends of Dardanelles? I know archaeology is totally against this. Chances are slim for this to have happened, but who knows.

This guy Lazic argues that the Dardani came to the Balkans from Anatolia and not the traditional view.

He argues that the low mound/dented ware people that appear in Dardania are the ones that brought the name and have anatolian origins.

https://www.academia.edu/4104746/КО_СУ_БИЛИ_ДАРДАНЦИ_Who_Were_the_Dardani

 

[Hawk]

This guy Lazic argues that the Dardani came to the Balkans from Anatolia and not the traditional view.

He argues that the low mound/dented ware people that appear in Dardania are the ones that brought the name and have anatolian origins.

https://www.academia.edu/4104746/КО_СУ_БИЛИ_ДАРДАНЦИ_Who_Were_the_Dardani

Yeah, quite interesting case, but, looking into archaeological records, i would rest my case if that happens to be a real-deal (surprised). Perhaps we are looking at different lineages though, but looking at E-V13 archaeological context it was found, that screams Northern Balkans/Southern Pannonia/Carpathians, they were the southern cousins of Gava, Vatin was in it's western shores. Messed up, but Late Bronze Age faced almost global catastrophe, civilizations collapsed. So, perhaps we are missing something.

But, one thing i find interesting, cremations on a low mound is the burial Pasko Kuzman describes of Enchelei in Ohrid. But to clarify, this burial rite, Lazic says is to be clearly connected with Balkan-Danubian complex, not Anatolia.

 

[mount123]

I made these highlights a while ago, but it wasn't so obvious back then as it is now.
The coincidence of the Komani-Kruja sites with the Latin placenames (of a Dalmatian variety) makes no sense if the Komani-Kruja was the proto-Albanian speaking culture.
Why would the proto-Albanian culture be naming their places s in a dalmatian strain of balkan latin?

You've mentioned such a population also spanning all the way to Ulpiana, could you provide the sources again, can't remember which post it was. All of this makes deciphering the genome of these people even more important. I think it is very likely to yield J2b-L283>Z638>Y21045+, among other branches.

 

[torzio]

The ancient authors that mentioned the connection between the balkan dardani and anatolian dardani did claim them to be colonists from anatolia actually.
I also remember Herodotus claiming somewhere that the anatolian mysians overran all of europe at one point, but didnt think much of it. Ill try find it.

I read this in the past

IIRC ...........Liburnians from Asia ( Minor ) Anatolia came via Lycian tribe

They ruled over ( vassalized ) the Dalmatians up to the Dardani who where in southern Montenegro , who where north of the Bryges in modern Albania

this is the narrative

If you believe , so be it ..................my theory is herodotus mixed many stories into one .................so could be fact