Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[Riverman]

The last word is surely not spoken and we need a lot more samples from the Central and Northern Balkans, different time periods.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

I updated my images as I realized I uploaded the wrong charts. It's all good now. I cross checked the Cinamak samples, one individual is mixed of various MKD groups and Moesian, so he stays where he is. My groupings are final. My Dardanian cluster is hypothetical, but I'm confident it will prove right.

 

[enter_tain]

Paleo stop spamming this thread with your bullshit. This is a thread about language, not your dumb models.

You can mix any 2 southern European countries to make Albanians. It doesn't mean anything. G25 is not there for you to plug random garbage. It's there as a sanity check. It doesn't confirm anything.

 

[enter_tain]

If you guys are so certain that we are wrong about exploring this central balkans tangent about the proto-Albanians, which is supported by countless linguists, then just sit back and laugh at us for being so wrong.

You guys have your "On the autochthony of Albanian" thread on anthrogenica with 6 replies that you can jerk each other off in.

If you are so certain in your pure "Illyrian autochonity of Albanian cinamak assimilators of EV13 minor lineages that were super minor and irrelevant until roman empire when they spread east med" hypotheses then just sit back and revel in the security of being right.

Stop barging in with irrelevant chimpouts trying to derail, censor, and ban any proper further speculation/investigation into the proto-Albanians.

You guys don't actually push anything forward, you can only negate and drag things down. Its like you have no creative capabilities of your own, but can only tear down things that other people make or start to make.

We have Messapic writings and it's linked to Albanian. We have 0 "Central Balkans" writings.

Illyrian-Albanian can be supported on the back of Messapic~Illyrian equivalence. Your "Central Balkan" bullshit has 0 basis, and even your boyfriend Matzinger is desperately trying to break the Illyrian-Messapic link.

Go to Italy and all Messapic archeologists will tell you that Messapics are Illyrians.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9absSZJmCAo&ab_channel=TopChannelAlbania

All those Italian (and 1 French) archeologists made that clear. Let's see Matzinger go against them on archeology.

 

[enter_tain]

Right, the remainder ‘Slovenian Iron Age’ ancestry, and you take that literally.


My point was that those two Turkish samples got there from the Balkans. They weren’t native there in West Asia. Only morons have labelled it as West Asian.

From E-V13 project in FTDNA

"[FONT=&quot]A subset, E-V13 [/FONT](E1b1b1a1b*)[FONT=&quot] individuals migrated from the Middle East and Western Asia into the Balkans around 4500 years ago (Balkan Bronze Age)."[/FONT]

 

[Hawk]

The arguments in this forum have me scratching my head. It appears that everyone here is just as prejudiced as the next person because of their own individual reasons. We need a professional user to resolve this, so why don't we get one? Reading only the previous 30 pages gave me the impression that Archtype0ne is a very knowledgeable guy about fstats qpADM. This is state-of-the-art software utilized by the vast majority of cutting-edge genetics papers, and hence much superior to any other consumer genetic modeling now in use.

Jeez man, you are shameless and don't even bother to hide your characteristics tain. I guess fstats qpADM is such a hard tool that it requires a genius to figure out, we are not geniuses unfortunately.

You just have to follow README instructions in github repository and you should be fine: https://github.com/DReichLab/AdmixTools, it's not a rocket science. Quite easy in fact.

 

[Riverman]

From E-V13 project in FTDNA

"A subset, E-V13 (E1b1b1a1b*) individuals migrated from the Middle East and Western Asia into the Balkans around 4500 years ago (Balkan Bronze Age)."

That's of course nonsense, because already the predecessor of E-V13, E-L618, was widespread in Europe and not more common in the Near East. Unless they have found a nest of E-V13 in the Near which moved into the Balkans, which they haven't, there is no evidence for such a conclusion.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Jeez man, you are shameless and don't even bother to hide your characteristics tain. I guess fstats qpADM is such a hard tool that it requires a genius to figure out, we are not geniuses unfortunately.

You just have to follow README instructions in github repository and you should be fine: https://github.com/DReichLab/AdmixTools, it's not a rocket science. Quite easy in fact.

Are the results any different? Part of the reason I am posting my results is to gather feedback.

 

[Hawk]

Are the results any different? Part of the reason I am posting my results is to gather feedback.

Didn't check them Paleo. But i am pretty sure it's not a rocket-science to figure out, just like the Y-DNA predictions they do. They fetch the github repository, compile the project code, download the BAM file and from terminal while putting the Python CLI commands (programming language usually used for data analysis/data science) they just specify the source of BAM file locally and they get an Y-DNA prediction.

Same should apply for this as well, i saw qpADM there inside the AdmixtureTools from David Reich, if it's this tool. If not, it should be quite similar with this one.

Usually, when they put these kind of tools in Github, in README they put detailed step-by-step instructions how to run it. If i have to guess, these should be more or less similar to G25. Nothing wow about it i assume.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

One refinement to my groupings. Rechecked my work. The Gradsko sample is actually a Thracian. And likely represents Bisaltai(the Thracians dominated the lowland of Vardar.

Gradsko I7233 belongs with the Thracian average, and when you make it part of the Thracian average, the Thracian stand alone fit improves again. However the best fit remains Paeonian and Thracian combination.

So when I crosscheck my samples again with my refined Paeonian average. It turns out Krusevlje R6701 and Sirmium R6730 are Paeonian based. Krusevlje is Paeonian and Dardanian plus foreign elements. Sirmium is actually a Paeonian-Thracian mix, though he too carries other mixture. I am removing them from the Moesian group, since Nassius is distinct from them. On my models Nassius stands alone as a possible Triballi candidate.

I combined the Thracian individuals(which includes Gradsko) with the Nassius sample as one average(not a 50/50 split but simply adding Nassius to the Thracians).

It's close, but Thracian and Paeonian still outperforms it. Also I did the Thracian and Paeonian with the Krusevlje, since he is mostly Paeonian-Thracian profile(but adulterated with other mixtures), this is the result.

This is the 2nd best fit, but unmixed Paeonians work better with Thracians, this all indicates that the best model that works is Thracian and Paeonian combination. With other combinations the fit begins to loosen up.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Didn't check them Paleo. But i am pretty sure it's not a rocket-science to figure out, just like the Y-DNA predictions they do. They fetch the github repository, compile the project code, download the BAM file and from terminal while putting the Python CLI commands (programming language usually used for data analysis/data science) they just specify the source of BAM file locally and they get an Y-DNA prediction.

Same should apply for this as well, i saw qpADM there inside the AdmixtureTools from David Reich, if it's this tool. If not, it should be quite similar with this one.

Usually, when they put these kind of tools in Github, in README they put detailed step-by-step instructions how to run it. If i have to guess, these should be more or less similar to G25. Nothing wow about it i assume.

Unfortunately I can't spend another week, I have to shift priorities. I'll take the task up another time. But I will make a thread about my model hoping to get feedback from people like Jovalis and co, I prefer to get feedback.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

I guess it would be important to explore the different tribes in this region then.

The Dardani probably were not quite this east, but should be mention as being a possible minority element in their easternmost region. In this line of reasoning, maybe also the Macedones should be mentioned as possibly also have a minority element in this region as their northernmost?

The main tribes around this territory:

The Agrianes: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agrianes

The Derroni:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derrones

The Maedi:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maedi

The Dentheletae:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dentheletae

Please add any I may have missed.

Johane can you do this same research(as you did for Guri) for Laeaei and Laiai, and also try with it by introducing a 2nd L as well.


https://mobile.twitter.com/AlbHistory/status/1407016889000333312?cxt=HHwWgMC43fyZ3YYnAAAA

I think you guys(Kosovars and northern Ghegs) don't use lala anymore, but in central Albania through Myzeqe it was a common term and phrase in the local dialects. Also it is a theme in central Albanian and Tosk folk music.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adpWLtHwguM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_vNTsI63lE

 

[broder]

From E-V13 project in FTDNA

"A subset, E-V13 (E1b1b1a1b*) individuals migrated from the Middle East and Western Asia into the Balkans around 4500 years ago (Balkan Bronze Age)."

Yeah, didn’t know that the FTDNA V13 project had morons running it. There is absolutely zero evidence that V13 came to the Balkans from the Middle East or Western Asia during the Bronze Age.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

I hope ihype, Hawk, Mount and Johane are enjoying the silence, it feels like I am attending a funeral in this thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGSKrC7dGcY


I don't want to be immature but given how nasty, ugly, vicious and plain animalistic the mob was being towards me and other good natured folks. Don't mind if I gloat and rub it in your faces. You know you deserve it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALpOzyKCWOo

 

[ihype02]

From E-V13 project in FTDNA

"A subset, E-V13 (E1b1b1a1b*) individuals migrated from the Middle East and Western Asia into the Balkans around 4500 years ago (Balkan Bronze Age)."

You want E-V13 to be a merely founder effect result in Albanians and perhaps in most other Europeans too, we get it. But this East-Med Roman hypothesis is not gonna work for you. Find something else.

 

[broder]

Didn't check them Paleo. But i am pretty sure it's not a rocket-science to figure out, just like the Y-DNA predictions they do. They fetch the github repository, compile the project code, download the BAM file and from terminal while putting the Python CLI commands (programming language usually used for data analysis/data science) they just specify the source of BAM file locally and they get an Y-DNA prediction.

Do you know what repository they use for Y-DNA predictions? First time I am hearing of this. I thought most people use IGV for such purposes, and the work is all manual.

 

[Hawk]

Do you know what repository they use for Y-DNA predictions? First time I am hearing of this. I thought most people use IGV for such purposes, and the work is all manual.

I will try to find it, from the quick eye i gave it, i am convinced they run the Python scripts to give them atleast if not directly the Y-DNA predictions some values which can be easily converted.

 

[broder]

One refinement to my groupings. Rechecked my work. The Gradsko sample is actually a Thracian. And likely represents Bisaltai(the Thracians dominated the lowland of Vardar.

Gradsko I7233 belongs with the Thracian average, and when you make it part of the Thracian average, the Thracian stand alone fit improves again. However the best fit remains Paeonian and Thracian combination.

So when I crosscheck my samples again with my refined Paeonian average. It turns out Krusevlje R6701 and Sirmium R6730 are Paeonian based. Krusevlje is Paeonian and Dardanian plus foreign elements. Sirmium is actually a Paeonian-Thracian mix, though he too carries other mixture. I am removing them from the Moesian group, since Nassius is distinct from them. On my models Nassius stands alone as a possible Triballi candidate.

I combined the Thracian individuals(which includes Gradsko) with the Nassius sample as one average(not a 50/50 split but simply adding Nassius to the Thracians).

It's close, but Thracian and Paeonian still outperforms it. Also I did the Thracian and Paeonian with the Krusevlje, since he is mostly Paeonian-Thracian profile(but adulterated with other mixtures), this is the result.

This is the 2nd best fit, but unmixed Paeonians work better with Thracians, this all indicates that the best model that works is Thracian and Paeonian combination. With other combinations the fit begins to loosen up.

R6701 is R-L51 and R6730 is I-Y41633. Neither linage seems like a good proxy for Paeonians, Dardanians or Thracians. Pay attention to the Y linages as well.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

R6701 is R-L51 and R6730 is I-Y41633. Neither linage seems like a good proxy for Paeonians, Dardanians or Thracians. Pay attention to the Y linages as well.

Good point. I will at one point have a list of all the samples Y-DNA. So R6701, based on his haplogroup is probably a Scordisci, he even shows some Gothic and Czech Latene mixture. He is clearly mixed though, because autosmally he is Paeonian based.

 

[Excine]

I was certain that Paleo-Revenge isn't what he claims to be and in fact he's likely an old sock with an obvious propaganda. @everybody check this comment and understand who this person is and why he'll go at length to even claim that radiocarbon dating of medieval Albanians isn't real because it doesn't suit his propaganda:

No actual Albanian would ever write such a thing.