Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[broder]

Good point. I will at one point have a list of all the samples Y-DNA. So R6701, based on his haplogroup is probably a Scordisci, he even shows some Gothic and Czech Latene mixture. He is clearly mixed though, because autosmally he is Paeonian based.

You mean to say Pannonian? Extremely unlikely he has anything to do with Paeonians based on timing and location. He is more specifically under this subclade: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-BY157588/

Sure, could be a Scordisci remnant.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

I was certain that Paleo-Revenge isn't what he claims to be and in fact he's likely an old sock with an obvious propaganda. @everybody check this comment and understand who this person is and why he'll go at length to even claim that radiocarbon dating of medieval Albanians isn't real because it doesn't suit his propaganda:

No actual Albanian would ever write such a thing.

Why wouldn't I say that? Why do you live in a Germanic country? Enjoy those haplogroup I benefits while they last.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

You mean to say Pannonian? Extremely unlikely he has anything to do with Paeonians based on timing and location. He is more specifically under this subclade: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-BY157588/

Sure, could be a Scordisci remnant.

I meant Paeonian, my updated Paeonian cluster is based on two individuals Anc:I10390 and I10391. I am taking calculator readings at face value, otherwise there is no point in even using them.

 

[enter_tain]

You want E-V13 to be a merely founder effect result in Albanians and perhaps in most other Europeans too, we get it. But this East-Med Roman hypothesis is not gonna work for you. Find something else.

The "founder effect" in Albanians is mostly the Berisha/Kosovar spike of E-V13, that goes to 30-40%. Southern Europe is usually 15-20% E-V13. The Balkan baseline is ~20%.

But that 20% Balkan baseline clearly is "Aegean".

Like I said, all E-V13 samples east of Croatia were either fully East Med/67% Aegean. That's not an opinion. That's fact.

Where E-V13 came from originally is pointless and a detraction. I2 was originally WHG but you had it in EEF populations and Yamnaya. We know for a fact E-V13 Aegean/East Med existed and influenced Balkan genetics.

 

[broder]

I meant Paeonian, my updated Paeonian cluster is based on two individuals Anc:I10390 and I10391. I am taking calculator readings at face value, otherwise there is no point in even using them.

Yeah, still they could just be picking up something akin to them. I don’t think they have anything to do with Paeonians.

Also, both samples from Marvinci are not great examples either. One female and the other is G2a, who could either be a native remnant that they absorbed or actually Greek.

 

[enter_tain]

That's of course nonsense, because already the predecessor of E-V13, E-L618, was widespread in Europe and not more common in the Near East. Unless they have found a nest of E-V13 in the Near which moved into the Balkans, which they haven't, there is no evidence for such a conclusion.

The ancient Mid East is very poorly sampled. European "E" originally came from there, so saying any E coming from there is nonsense, is nonsense.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Yeah, still they could just be picking up something akin to them. I don’t think they have anything to do with Paeonians.

Also, both samples from Marvinci are not great examples either. One female and the other is G2a, who could either be a native remnant that they absorbed or actually Greek.

In principle I agree, but I have to go by what I have. Also I tested the calculator with Nassius sample too, so Thracian plus any immediate western population helps the fit get tighter, however once you go farther such as Skopje, etc... the fit does not improve. So far it the data points to Paeonian being the right mixture into a Thracian base as the perfect recipe for maximum fit.

I am going to go on a limb here and state that the Kenete sample might actually be Kruja-Komani, it picks up a strong Cinamak single. So Illyrians like those of Croatia got mixed away. We'll see what the future samples will yield.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Yeah, still they could just be picking up something akin to them. I don’t think they have anything to do with Paeonians.

Also, both samples from Marvinci are not great examples either. One female and the other is G2a, who could either be a native remnant that they absorbed or actually Greek.

One can argue that mixing an Illyrian with some ME mixture and they will morph into Thracian profile. This is the mixed Illyrians of Croatia, the calculator picks up the Illyrian component.

On a second note, there is a pattern in the graph, too many MKD southeast singals, maybe MKD southeast really represents Illyrian like component plus MENA. I think this may turn out true.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Thank you Broder for asking these questions. It does really appear that what I am calling Paeonian(MKD Southeast) is really Illyrian like component plus MENA. Too many Roman Croatians, plus the Pannonian sample are showing this type of mixture. This is the best model the calculator generates.

How much of that MKD southeast and southwest represents Illyrian is up in the air. Because in between lived the Dardani(Skopje profile) and Paeonians who can also have similar profile. MKD Ohrid probably represents the Illyrian component.

 

[Hawk]

Cannot be denied this E-V13 sample came from Western Balkans, if i have to guess Venetian perhaps?

I can see how this nicely fits Vatin in the centre of the spread during Bronze Age, this culture spread North and influenced Gava, spread East and had deep connections with the eastern Grla-Mara (then subsequently Psenicevo-Babadag the heavy IA E-V13 samples from Bulgaria), it was called Pseudo Proto-Villanovan because of similarities with Proto-Villanovans. Perhaps i am overlooking, but it's a nice fit.

Distance to:	Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946
2.78644935	HRV_BA:I18712
2.98871210	MNE_LBA:I14498
3.23542887	MNE_LBA:I13172
3.42943144	HRV_Cetina_BA:I18088
3.47201671	ALB_Çinamak_Anc:I16253
3.64773903	MNE_LBA:I13775
3.69039293	SRB_BA:I16803
3.77361895	HRV_BA:I5074
4.03637213	MNE_LBA:I13168
4.12242647	MNE_LBA:I13169
4.12408778	SRB_BA:I17913
4.51106418	MKD_Anc:I8112
4.98124482	MKD_Anc:I10384
4.99731928	HRV_Cetina_BA:I19027
5.04593896	HRV_Anc_brother.I18831:I18830
5.07790311	HRV_Cetina_BA:I18745
5.10918780	MNE_LBA_brother.I13169_son.or.brother.I13776:I1377 7
5.12647052	HRV_BA:I5080
5.17966215	MKD_Anc:I10377
5.31776269	HRV_IA:I5729
5.42506221	SRB_BA:I17912
5.44027573	HRV_Cetina_BA:I18752
5.54583628	MKD_Anc:I10383
5.57596628	MNE_LBA:I13171
5.60107133	MNE_LBA:I14501

But, you never know, perhaps paternally he could have been far more Southern, mixed with some more Central-Western shifted females. Who knows how they ended up there. This kind of aDNA results serve no purpose. Now guess and play whack-a-mole game.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

I ran the Alb mdv and post mdv samples against my IA plus modern alb averages, all of them. Notice I3834 does not pick up a single alb regional average. There is no way this is not a miss-dated ancient genome.

Also take note that Alb Dibra picks up the Kenete sample, again pointing to Kenete being a representative to Kruja-komani genetics. The Kenete sample also picks up MKD southeast which in this case represents altered(MENA mixed) Illyrian component.

 

[broder]

In principle I agree, but I have to go by what I have. Also I tested the calculator with Nassius sample too, so Thracian plus any immediate western population helps the fit get tighter, however once you go farther such as Skopje, etc... the fit does not improve. So far it the data points to Paeonian being the right mixture into a Thracian base as the perfect recipe for maximum fit.

I am going to go on a limb here and state that the Kenete sample might actually be Kruja-Komani, it picks up a strong Cinamak single. So Illyrians like those of Croatia got mixed away. We'll see what the future samples will yield.

The Lisicin Dol samples (I8112 and I10383) seem better proxies for Paeonian to me. Plus I8112 is CTS1450+ (one of our major linages). They are from an earlier period, so easier to single them out as non Greek.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

The Lisicin Dol samples (I8112 and I10383) seem better proxies for Paeonian to me. Plus I8112 is CTS1450+ (one of our major linages). They are from an earlier period, so easier to single them out as non Greek.

I removed them because 8112 is full blown Illyrian or Celtic-Thracian mix. I10383 has a profile which I consider Dardanian(west Dardanian)

My proxy for Paeonian is not ideal, but it will to do for now.

 

[Excine]

PaleoRevenge is abusing G25 and creates overfitting models with overlapping samples just to further this propaganda. He showed his true colours.

Overfitting a model doesn't make it better, it means nothing when the model has 0 correlation to Y-DNA, archaeological, historical and linguistic reality.

1)2/3 haplogroups and 3/4 higher level clades with the highest diversity among Albanians were found in Cinamak.
2)Albanian has nothing to do with Thracian linguistically.

This is the starting point of the conversation. Trying to "prove" anything beyond that by pretending that a model "proves" something else by overfitting it 0.1 more than other models is a futile exercise.

 

[Excine]

Cannot be denied this E-V13 sample came from Western Balkans, if i have to guess Venetian perhaps?

I can see how this nicely fits Vatin in the centre of the spread during Bronze Age, this culture spread North and influenced Gava, spread East and had deep connections with the eastern Grla-Mara (then subsequently Psenicevo-Babadag the heavy IA E-V13 samples from Bulgaria), it was called Pseudo Proto-Villanovan because of similarities with Proto-Villanovans. Perhaps i am overlooking, but it's a nice fit.

Distance to:	Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946
2.78644935	HRV_BA:I18712
2.98871210	MNE_LBA:I14498
3.23542887	MNE_LBA:I13172
3.42943144	HRV_Cetina_BA:I18088
3.47201671	ALB_Çinamak_Anc:I16253
3.64773903	MNE_LBA:I13775
3.69039293	SRB_BA:I16803
3.77361895	HRV_BA:I5074
4.03637213	MNE_LBA:I13168
4.12242647	MNE_LBA:I13169
4.12408778	SRB_BA:I17913
4.51106418	MKD_Anc:I8112
4.98124482	MKD_Anc:I10384
4.99731928	HRV_Cetina_BA:I19027
5.04593896	HRV_Anc_brother.I18831:I18830
5.07790311	HRV_Cetina_BA:I18745
5.10918780	MNE_LBA_brother.I13169_son.or.brother.I13776:I1377 7
5.12647052	HRV_BA:I5080
5.17966215	MKD_Anc:I10377
5.31776269	HRV_IA:I5729
5.42506221	SRB_BA:I17912
5.44027573	HRV_Cetina_BA:I18752
5.54583628	MKD_Anc:I10383
5.57596628	MNE_LBA:I13171
5.60107133	MNE_LBA:I14501

But, you never know, perhaps paternally he could have been far more Southern, mixed with some more Central-Western shifted females. Who knows how they ended up there. This kind of aDNA results serve no purpose. Now guess and play whack-a-mole game.

If we have such a sample, it more likely means that we will find more E-V13 somewhere in the Illyrian sphere.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

PaleoRevenge is abusing G25 and creates overfitting models with overlapping samples just to further this propaganda. He showed his true colours.

Overfitting a model doesn't make it better, it means nothing when the model has 0 correlation to Y-DNA, archaeological, historical and linguistic reality.

1)2/3 haplogroups and 3/4 higher level clades with the highest diversity among Albanians were found in Cinamak.
2)Albanian has nothing to do with Thracian linguistically.

This is the starting point of the conversation. Trying to "prove" anything beyond that by pretending that a model "proves" something else by overfitting it 0.1 more than other models is a futile exercise.

Thracian on it's own.

Thracian with MKD SE

BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA:Average,0.1217906,0.1598444,0.0085982,-0.05168,0.0336678,-0.025881,0.001927,-0.0036462,0.01129,0.0471628,0.0024358,0.0098014,-0.0169474,0.0009636,-0.0248912,-0.0074514,0.0131166,0.0041046,0.0115894,-0.0076036,-0.0087346,0.000445,-0.0031798,0.0012288,-0.0085024
Thracian_&_Paeonian,0.121932875,0.1586765,0.011643375,-0.044049125,0.03235225,-0.021265375,-0.000146875,-0.003778875,0.01076325,0.042256125,0.00253725,0.009067,-0.016092625,0.000911875,-0.0225975,-0.010225875,0.00722,0.00296125,0.0101345,-0.010333,-0.00963925,0.0029675,-0.002218375,0.00266575,-0.006451625


Baltic_EST_BA,0.1321485,0.1213556,0.0992205,0.111662,0.051671,0.040746,0.0158398,0.0204684,-0.0029042,-0.050607,0.0009094,-0.0182389,0.0359462,0.0400344,-0.0180239,0.0018297,0.0103654,-0.000684,-0.0013952,0.0046272,-0.0024957,-0.0062692,0.0106487,-0.017388,0.002359
Sargat_IA:Average,0.093477,-0.068548125,0.0658075,0.0608855,-0.049201625,-6.98750000000006E-05,0.003055125,0.004442,-0.01516025,-0.02890725,0.014899125,-0.00252875,0.008566625,-0.033236,0.002680375,0.001027625,-0.009664875,0.00121925,-0.001853875,-0.003329625,-0.009343,0.006244375,0.001802375,0.003057625,0.001167625
MNG_Early_Xiongnu:Average,0.0668927692307692,-0.207246076923077,0.0557848461538462,0.0257157692307692,-0.0602005384615385,-0.009375,0.00723107692307692,0.00658553846153846,-0.0122085384615385,-0.0164993846153846,-0.0166386153846154,-0.00288215384615385,-0.000903461538461539,-0.0122060769230769,0.0140104615384615,0.000917846153846154,-0.00948784615384615,0.00161784615384615,0.00147938461538462,0.00503115384615384,-0.0186401538461538,-0.00195938461538462,-0.00628553846153846,0.00203923076923077,0.00205415384615385
AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LC:ALX002,0.097888,0.137096,-0.06939,-0.072675,-0.023697,-0.013666,0.005875,-0.003692,-0.024338,-0.00164,0.011205,-0.013338,0.012636,0.00578,-0.020765,0.030893,0.024903,0.004181,-0.000251,-0.007754,0.004617,0.015086,-0.003944,-0.015544,-0.005508
ARM_Noratus_Anc:Average,0.0944735,0.137604,-0.05638,-0.0637925,-0.0253895,-0.019941,0.0038775,-0.005192,-0.0223955,-0.0041,0.00609,0.00517,-0.006764,-0.0052985,-0.0010855,0.00305,0.009453,-0.001964,0.005594,-0.0068785,0.003993,-0.00136,0.0019105,-0.0025905,0.003353
Kura-Araxes_ARM,0.104528,0.129988,-0.065996,-0.040967,-0.050471,-0.005113,0.009165,-0.0065,-0.062005,-0.018619,0.003302,0.009691,-0.016278,0.001308,0.00509,-0.004132,0.009236,-0.001773,-0.001215,0.00148,0.004908,-0.002638,0.002301,-0.005563,-0.001936
ISR_Natufian_EpiP,0.034147,0.152329,-0.022627,-0.140506,0.042162,-0.085062,-0.016921,-0.015692,0.12476,0.019317,0.028743,-0.025327,0.085926,-0.004129,0.004886,-0.014054,-0.011213,-0.007855,-0.02074,0.023136,0.01123,0.001607,0.00912,0.003735,-0.003233

Go cry to Brumis arms.

 

[broder]

I removed them because 8112 is full blown Illyrian or Celtic-Thracian mix. I10383 has a profile which I consider Dardanian(west Dardanian)

My proxy for Paeonian is not ideal, but it will to do for now.

Problem I have with that is you can’t just pick random samples from Vojvodina to Macedonia and declare them to be Paenonian, because they fit your model. Regardless of what they look like autosomally, Lisicin Dol samples are the most clear cut samples that represent Paenonians. Confirmed by Macedonian archeologists too. You build your model based on samples that we can confirm archeologically as such. Dardanian samples are the only ones that were around Shkup. Thracians the Iron Age samples from Bulgaria etc.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Problem I have with that is you can’t just pick random samples from Vojvodina to Macedonia and declare them to be Paenonian, because they fit your model. Regardless of what they look like autosomally, Lisicin Dol samples are the most clear cut samples that represent Paenonians. Confirmed by Macedonian archeologists too. You build your model based on samples that we can confirm archeologically as such. Dardanian samples are the only ones that were around Shkup. Thracians the Iron Age samples from Bulgaria etc.

Broder, I disclosed all my averages I am using, you are free to rearrange them as you see fit. I have to place some trust on readings otherwise, why even try to model with it? I'm sure I removed the Vojvodina samples, the only sample I kept is the one Croatian in the Dardanian cluster because her profile says Skopje and Thracian, impossible this female from around 100 AD is Illyrian local.


In the end there will be eventually more samples, and I will be proven wrong or right. I'm simply making my reads here. You are free to make your variations of my model. I do not set any rules.

 

[Hawk]

If we have such a sample, it more likely means that we will find more E-V13 somewhere in the Illyrian sphere.

Anywhere Urnfield influenced, like Southern Albania for instance or areas nearby Ancient Veneti. Because core Illyrians as per aDNA and archaeology had little to nothing to do with Urnfielders.

 

[Archetype0ne]

Some other Dodecad K12b maps: