Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[mount123]

G25 isn't the holy grail. It is flawed, IMO.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

To an extent yes, but I'm fairly confident it comes down the analytical skill of the user. Some people don't know what they are doing, and some people are agenda driven and will not accept the calculator reads if it offends them.

 

[mount123]

Considering the rambling of enter_tain (aka boots, takerunder and some other 20+ accounts of this mentally ill moron) on his new home Anthrogenica:

Whilst I am certain to agree based on aDNA records that very early Proto-Albanians are highly likely descendants of some Central Balkan MBA nest spanning from the North to the South (likely similar to ancient Greeks, we got those Mycenean PF7562 samples too didn't we?), it is very much wrong to equate them with their Western actual core Illyrian neighbors. THESE ULANCI OFFSHOOTS HAVE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH PROTO-ILLYRIAN CETINA/DINARIC.

Look at the BA/IA North Macedonian results from largely Paeonian cemetries and what the archeology suggests about these sites, esp. the MBA/LBA Ulanci group and their of shoots rich in R1b-Z2103 (likely a PF7562 minority too).
Cinamak is to the very east of Albania bordering these clearly distinct archeological complexes and R1b-Z2103 starts to appear (in only two samples, and PF7562 in solely one IA sample). Is this a coincidence? Clearly not.

Most importantly: Early Bronze Age Cetina culture (2200 BCE onwards albeit there might be earlier RC datings of stone samples and bone samples in the future) is evidence of a EBA WEST BALKAN origin of the Illyrian ethnos and has absolutely nothing to do with Proto-Albanians whatsoever.

Same as the absurdity to claim EBA Cetina descends from much younger Cisalpine Italo-Celtic Tumulus Culture and what not networks. Unless one might want to claim these people time travelled (considering all of the absurd non sense I have seen from stuff about assassin's creed, iPhones in Germany and other obnoxious non existent brain cell type of garbage that might actually be the case for some).

Also, the main haplogroup of EBA Cetina is J2b-L283 turns out people aren't able to read the supplementary data the papers provide and come up with obscure non sense ratios such as R1b-U152 (literally non existent, that one BB derived lineage was Z2118 turns out people have no clue about the nomenclature of the haplogroup that in a parallel universe seems to have been very common in a certain culture) and R1b-Z2103 (too totally non existent and irrelevant when talking about Cetina), "I2a" post Vucedol that is a great joke.. The EBA Cetina auDNA profile is what it is: a Cetina profile, taking modern nations or much younger archeological complexes as a designation to describe this profile that already existed when these people weren't even a thing is simply stupid.

Lastly what about the Cetina expansion into Italy and its islands ?!

 

[Hawk]

I do agree on that point, they don't seem to pose any substantial percentage to make a difference. It's like 1 R1b-L2/R1b-L51 (whatever subclade) with a lake of J2b2-L283 Cetina samples.

Although R1b-Z2103 appears with J2b2-L283 within several sites, it's up yet to see whether there is consistent correlation. E-V13 has never appeared alongside R1b-Z2103 or J2b2-L283 in Iron Age (not that we have many samples belonging to E-V13).

 

[mount123]

The most recent arguments regarding Albanian come from Matzinger 2021 and Hyllested 2022.

Albanian is a MBA Central Balkan derived IE language unlike Illyrian which is a EBA Western-Balkans IE language and belongs to different block. Matzinger believes that Albanian is not related to Thracian and its related idioms as well.

Matzinger believes Albanian has/could have a connection with Messapian instead who doesn't have connection with Illyrian.

Hyllested also put Albanian in the same group as Messapian although he admits it's still a controversial grouping, and he puts both languages under "Illyric" branch noting in quotes that it means more of a geographic rather than phylogenetic tree since he isn't sure whether all languages spoken in Western Balkans had the same source.

Ultimately, Hyllested believes Albanian shares the same origin as Greek within IE branch, probably both descending from Yamnaya (but not referring in specific Catacomb or what). It's a controversial branching but per him the best bet so far.

That's how i understood.

Fixed the first sentence. Good overall summary although I don't agree with Matzinger on many crucial aspects especially the East Alpine non sense, it is noteworthy he spots the difference between Messapic (clearest (south-)Central Balkan lingusitic link) and purely Cetina derived Iapygian groups and his interesting proposal of Proto-Messapics joining Cetina, a Mediterranean sea power of its time, on their way to the West Adriatic.

A Urheimat for Proto-Albanians according to him boils down to the Southern Central Balkans Paeonia & Dardania namely, will be interesting to see how further samples from these regions turn out.

 

[mount123]

I do agree on that point, they don't seem to pose any substantial percentage to make a difference. It's like 1 R1b-L2/R1b-L51 (whatever subclade) with a lake of J2b2-L283 Cetina samples.

Although R1b-Z2103 appears with J2b2-L283 within several sites, it's up yet to see whether there is consistent correlation. E-V13 has never appeared alongside R1b-Z2103 or J2b2-L283 in Iron Age (not that we have many samples belonging to E-V13).

The Western Balkans was generally diverse at the time and what is important to be further highlighted is that Maros was a roughly at the same time living culture in regards to the time frame of Cetina and we have only one J2b-L283 there which shows influence and not origin. Maros is just some miniscule East Central Balkan EBA culture (clearly non Proto-Illyrian) which shows some influence from East Adriatic Cetina, nothing more nothing less. Border regions such as the Southern Central Balkans with much younger samples also don't cut it when it comes to a "correlation proposal".

It is crucial to differentiate between cultures.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

I think it's great he's there. You know it's torture for him to bite his lip and not curse people out. Entertain has been sent to boot camp.

 

[torzio]

Liburnians and Illyrian Lembs: Iron Age Ships of the Eastern Adriatic (Boršić; Radić Rossi) 27/05/21
Liburnians and Illyrian Lembs: Iron Age Ships of the Eastern Adriatic. They explore the origins of two types of ancient ship which appear in the written sources connected with the protohistoric eastern Adriatic area: the ‘Liburnian’ (liburna or liburnica) and the southern Adriatic (Illyrian) ‘lemb’.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQwki55K0Lk

 

[Hawk]

I don't think Liburnians are entirely different from Illyrians, they show tumulus inhumation burials inherited from Early Bronze Age and occassionally some urn burials as well, it is the Veneti and Histri who are more Urnfield derived.

Regarding Cetina, there is few materials on it, i remember people believed that E-V13 derive from Cetina from the sole factor that Croatian archaeologists thought it had Neolithic elements with few Bell-Beaker influence. But, so few context shouldn't be taken as something to make a conclusion. I was a bit skeptical on this when the argument was that they just hopped from nowhere to Eastern Balkans to give rise to Thracians.

 

[Riverman]

I never bought the Cetina association, because its in the wrong spot for E-V13.

 

[torzio]

I don't think Liburnians are entirely different from Illyrians, they show tumulus inhumation burials inherited from Early Bronze Age and occassionally some urn burials as well, it is the Veneti and Histri who are more Urnfield derived.
Regarding Cetina, there is few materials on it, i remember people believed that E-V13 derive from Cetina from the sole factor that Croatian archaeologists thought it had Neolithic elements with few Bell-Beaker influence. But, so few context shouldn't be taken as something to make a conclusion. I was a bit skeptical on this when the argument was that they just hopped from nowhere to Eastern Balkans to give rise to Thracians.

the croatian 2021 study concluded
in the map below ............all the yellow tribes are similar ( not necessary "illyrians " )......and the only Illyrian Kingdom was formed by the white labelled tribes ( on map )

 

[Johane Derite]

I think it's great he's there. You know it's torture for him to bite his lip and not curse people out. Entertain has been sent to boot camp.

His barbarian nature still shines through, but it is amusing to observe.

 

[mount123]

I think it's great he's there. You know it's torture for him to bite his lip and not curse people out. Entertain has been sent to boot camp.

He is crying over there on a bunch of threads claiming under his sock "boots" that he autosomally is fully Illyrian, apparently like all Albanians . Because Cetina were Proto-Albanians (nice joke). Claims it is a Vucedol derived culture (literally alien to Cetina but also a great joke). Or his alter ego sock "takerunder" where he repeats that BB/TC culture joke. He doesn't even know when these archeological complexes started and ended. He is just a stubborn and dumb person. It's comedic.

 

[Hawk]

From where Cetina originates there is little to none archaeological writings to find. Perhaps there is more material in Croatian language.

 

[Hawk]

As for E-V13, i still prefer Urnfield origin, but i must confess not everything is straightforward, there is a chance it comes from Lower Danube, extreme Eastern Balkans but to me it looks so unlikely due to the fact that that was a Yamnaya highway and Chalcolithic Bulgarian samples already showed G2a, then Early/Middle Bronze Age lacks E-V13 as well, even in Kapitan Andreevo, then in Early Iron Age it shows up.

But, a Lower Danube survivor mixed with Noua-Sabatinovska (Pre Proto-Thracian) still makes sense to me. Let's see. It's weird but the Lower Danube Neolithics were the ones who survived and thrived the longest from all Neolithic Europeans. They were a bit more militaristic. Soon, we will have more Neolithic/Chalcolithic aDNA from Bulgaria, especially from Varna. Then we will know for sure.

I just read some rumour yesterday that the E-V13 sample from Lalua-Fox or whatever the name actually comes from Mesolithic Greece. If true that's quite interesting. I thought the E-V13 mutation happened somewhere after Early Neolithic.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Honestly I ignore him, unless he addresses me. His comments are easy to spot, you can script a bot to emulate him, a very predictable personality. It's probably good thing he is forced to communicate in a more regulated forum, it will help him in character building.

 

[torzio]

the croatian 2021 study concluded
in the map below ............all the yellow tribes are similar ( not necessary "illyrians " )......and the only Illyrian Kingdom was formed by the white labelled tribes ( on map )

 

[torzio]

 

[Hawk]

Bruzmi or whatever other nicknames he uses sounding like a Pokemon villain, is certainly a person who in the eyes of most of E-V13 Albanians should be viewed equally to a Serb Cetnik. That much we believe and put trust to him. You know, how much trust i put in my ass when i take long trips, i make sure i have clean stomach. Therefore the analogy.

 

[Riverman]

Cetina is a Bell Beaker peripheral group of its own. They are no Bell Beakers themselves, but unthinkable without the Bell Beaker cultural role model and influence.