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This is using the sample averages.
In chronological order:
Highest score for cluster average:
Here is something interesting that I noticed using the 3D PCA for the Dodecad K12b coordinates. Albeit close, modern Greeks do not overlap with any of the Mediterranean-stock Romans. However, samples from Calabria-to-just a tad south of Romagna fit perfectly in the cloud.
Originally Posted by Jovialis
Here is something interesting that I noticed using the 3D PCA for the Dodecad K12b coordinates. Albeit close, modern Greeks do not overlap with any of the Mediterranean-stock Romans. However, samples from Calabria-to-just a tad south of Romagna fit perfectly in the cloud.
Byzantines from Trogir in modern Croatia were C6.
^^
One of them is my newest closest match.
Distance to: Jovialis 2.77221933 HRV_Trogir_Byz:I15744 2.85287574 C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cian ti 3.25777531 C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R54_Villa_Magna 3.26810343 C6:Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R121_S_Ercolano_Ne cropolis_Ostia 3.28435686 C6:Imperial_Mediterranean:R835_Civitanova_Marche 3.31691121 HRV_Trogir_Byz:I15462 3.78790179 C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R60_Villa_Magna 3.80023683 C6:Imperial_Mediterranean:R836_Civitanova_Marche 3.82032721 HRV_Trogir_Byz:I15463 4.00470973 C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R969_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cian ti 4.06354525 C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R970_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cian ti 4.21379876 C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R1290_Villa_Magna 4.31241232 C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R57_Villa_Magna 4.71858029 C5:Late_Antiquity_Eastern_Mediterranean:R122_S_Erc olano_Necropolis_Ostia 4.83366321 C6:Imperial_Mediterranean:R49_Centocelle_Necropoli s 4.95721696 C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R56_Villa_Magna 5.01646290 C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R64_Villa_Magna 5.08145648 HRV_Trogir_Byz:I15741 5.43155595 ALB_Mdv:I14622 5.85387906 C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R59_Villa_Magna 5.92195914 C6:Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R35_Celio 5.92265988 C6:Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R117_S_Ercolano_Ne cropolis_Ostia 5.92911461 C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R52_Villa_Magna 5.95918619 TUR_Marmara_Balıkesir_Byz:I14822 5.99387187 C6:Imperial_Mediterranean:R131_Via_Paisiello_Necro polis
Just an aside, having recently been to Civitavecchia, all during my cab ride to Rome; I thought of how incredibly stupid it was to assume that some samples from there had any meaningful implication on the genetics of Romans.
In fact, having been to many of the places of which are hot topics in this hobby, greatly reduced my confidence in the conclusions of what many papers and experts say.
I think it is easy for one to minimize the scale of these places when reading a paper. The difficulty of what it must have been like for earlier people to navigate the terrain, and so on.
You might want to check with the Venosa samples (which do have quite some J2b L283), I have some kind of hand-waving theory that those samples are probably Byzantines derived. In the historical context, Venosa was on the boundary of byzantine influence (the goths ruled it only in 555 i think) thanks to Justinian. It must have been known somehow this affinity with the eastern empire because 8 centuries later Arberesh settle in its outskirts.
Byzantines from Trogir in modern Croatia were C6.
Anyway, I think Venosa might connect C6 to Tragidium (trogdir). Maybe I am wrong, and would love that someone more experienced gave a quick look at it.
Out of curiosity I decided to test the C6 cluster against all of the academic samples processed for Dodecad K12b. The closest match modern matches for the C6 cluster are all central and southern Italians. You don't need a stupid and fake "Imperial Roman" aggregate to see where Central and Southern Italians came from. Because these people already existed at the same time the Anatolia and Near eastern immigrants had arrived.
This is the most important: ‘According to a longstanding historical hypothesis, the Urban Graveyard Effect, the influx of migrants in city-centers disproportionately contributed to death rate over birth rate; a process which would contribute to observing individuals as “transient” migrants…’
https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2022/05/19/cities-are-where-people-go-to-flourish-and-then-die/comment-page-1/
Distance to: C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cian ti 1.73254149 Apulia:Pu45 1.88925911 Apulia:cera2 1.90735419 Apulia:ALP583 2.38413506 Abruzzo:9_Behar_2013 2.54458248 Campania:NaN238DM 2.58021317 Abruzzo:Alp503 2.60397773 Apulia:cera8 2.60451531 Abruzzo:Alp616 2.64289614 Molise:PG26_Molise 2.78348702 Basilicata:PG25
Distance to: C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R970_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cian ti 4.35240164 Abruzzo:20_Behar_2013 4.50435345 Abruzzo:15_Behar_2013 4.81255649 Abruzzo:Alp140 4.82554660 Apulia:cera1 5.02570393 Umbria:PG06 5.04917815 Greece_NorthEast:GreeceNE231 5.13157870 Umbria:PG04 5.18619321 Marche:MarABY030D 5.19635449 Abruzzo:16_Behar_2013 5.24240403 Sicily:TP06_Busby_2015
Distance to: C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R969_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cian ti 1.79050272 Marche:MarACO100D 1.88997354 Abruzzo:17_Behar_2013 2.32198191 Abruzzo:ALP161 2.44311277 ITS5 2.78680821 Molise:PG27 2.82345533 Molise:PG26_Molise 2.86553660 Marche:MarACY030D 2.92181450 Umbria:PG03 2.93482538 Abruzzo:23_Behar_2013 2.96651310 Abruzzo:Alp162
Distance to: C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R65_Villa_Magna 1.81342218 Basilicata:PG25 2.06397674 Apulia:Pu7 2.26141549 Campania:NaN128LA 2.34503731 Basilicata:PG20 2.36613609 Apulia:GS47 2.42520102 Campania:NaN293SF 2.43776537 Apulia:GS32 2.56540445 Abruzzo:ALP205 2.60457290 Piedmont_o:ItalyPiedmont52 2.63717652 Calabria:ALP596
Distance to: C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R64_Villa_Magna 2.73662201 ITS2 2.83790416 Sicily:W-Sicily5a_Behar_2013 2.83790416 Sicily:W-Sicily:5a 3.45208633 Abruzzo:Alp503 3.46287453 Campania:NaN293SF 3.54998592 Basilicata:PG17 3.59135072 Campania:NaN58AC 3.92950379 Apulia:ALP583 4.08959656 Basilicata:PG25 4.14493667 Piedmont_o:ItalyPiedmont52
Distance to: C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R60_Villa_Magna 2.69775833 Abruzzo:23_Behar_2013 2.74324625 Sicily:TP04_Busby_2015 3.01444854 Abruzzo:16_Behar_2013 3.01572545 Abruzzo:15_Behar_2013 3.06066986 Abruzzo:Alp140 3.10943725 Basilicata:PG21 3.12124975 Abruzzo:20_Behar_2013 3.13847097 Marche:MarABY030D 3.38371098 Abruzzo:17_Behar_2013 3.45253530 Greece_NorthEast:GreeceNE231
Distance to: C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R59_Villa_Magna 2.68985130 Apulia:ALP379 2.73181259 Abruzzo:ALP205 3.06298874 Greece_Central:GreeceCentral8 3.07478455 Basilicata:PG19 3.14485294 Apulia:GS47 3.19050153 Campania:NaN43TC 3.21909925 Basilicata:PG25 3.31480014 Sicily:W-Sicily5b_Behar_2013 3.33408158 Basilicata:PG20 3.35423613 Campania:NaN238DM
Distance to: C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R58_Villa_Magna 1.95397032 Abruzzo:ALP205 2.25151060 Apulia:GS47 2.36171548 Greece_Central:GreeceCentral8 2.65700960 Basilicata:PG20 2.99008361 Basilicata:PG25 3.00639319 Campania:NaN289RM 3.09226454 Apulia:Pu3 3.22636018 Greece_F:GreeceF51k 3.47000000 Sicily:W-Sicily5b_Behar_2013 3.50015714 Campania:NaN238DM
Distance to: C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R57_Villa_Magna 1.66937114 Abruzzo:ALP205 1.71067238 Campania:NaN289RM 1.81218101 Basilicata:PG25 1.85922027 Apulia:ALP379 2.09602004 Greece_Central:GreeceCentral8 2.29259678 Apulia:ALP583 2.29484204 Basilicata:PG20 2.57974805 Apulia:GS47 2.60230667 Basilicata:PG18 2.79973213 Smyrna:GreeceSmyrna30
Distance to: C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R56_Villa_Magna 2.03612377 Campania:NaN128LA 2.10983412 Campania:NaN43TC 2.26808289 Campania:NaN212CR 2.37602609 Sicily:Ag-Sicily5_Behar_2013 2.37602609 Sicily:Ag-Sicily:5 2.41422866 Sicily:W-Sicily3_Behar_2013 2.41422866 Sicily:W-Sicily:3 2.46503550 Sicily:W-Sicily1_Behar_2013 2.46503550 Sicily:W-Sicily:1 2.62571895 Campania:NaN293SF
Distance to: C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R54_Villa_Magna 2.10430511 ITS2 2.49625720 Abruzzo:9_Behar_2013 2.59262415 Abruzzo:Alp616 2.97223821 Basilicata:PG18 2.97370140 Molise:PG26_Molise 2.98949829 Sicily:W-Sicily5a_Behar_2013 2.98949829 Sicily:W-Sicily:5a 2.99676492 Abruzzo:Alp140 3.12235488 Smyrna:GreeceSmyrna30 3.13840724 Abruzzo:16_Behar_2013
Distance to: C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R53_Villa_Magna 1.54712637 Apulia:Pu7 1.93129490 Crete:Crete3 2.14811545 Piedmont_o:ItalyPiedmont52 2.48975902 Basilicata:PG16 2.69814751 Campania:NaN77FAM 2.81471135 ITS4 2.84021126 Basilicata:PG20 2.88157943 Calabria:ALP596 2.91218131 Apulia:GS47 2.92692672 Crete:Crete8
Distance to: C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R52_Villa_Magna 1.98206963 Sicily:W-Sicily4_Behar_2013 1.99233531 Sicily:W-Sicily7_Behar_2013 3.21235116 Campania:NaN212CR 3.37253614 Lazio:NOR28 3.54269671 Abruzzo:Alp380 3.68176588 Campania:NaN43TC 3.73946520 Sicily:TP25_Busby_2015 3.76749253 Lazio:NOR24 3.81165318 Apulia:cera9 3.84325383 Abruzzo:14_Behar_2013
Distance to: C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R1290_Villa_Magna 1.51917741 Abruzzo:14_Behar_2013 1.78042130 Campania:NaN238DM 2.21366212 Campania:NaN212CR 2.40659511 Molise:PG27 2.65124499 Basilicata:PG19 2.70627050 Molise:PG26_Molise 2.76490506 Abruzzo:Alp616 2.77209307 Apulia:cera8 2.82628732 Abruzzo:9_Behar_2013 3.02231699 Abruzzo:22_Behar_2013
Distance to: C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R1287_Cancelleria 2.68747093 TSI:NA20787_SG 3.15582002 Corsica:CorsicaS29908 3.23473337 TSI:NA20529_SG 3.25851193 Corsica:Corsica03708 3.42490876 TSI:NA20800_SG 3.46310554 Corsica:corsica29008 3.57787647 TSI:NA20588_SG 3.65208160 TSI:NA20752_SG 3.76720055 TSI:NA20810_SG 3.79626132 Lazio:PG28
Distance to: C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R1285_Cancelleria 2.92849791 TSI:NA20588_SG 2.98464403 Tuscan:HGDP01169 3.15456812 TSI:NA20800_SG 3.44833293 Corsica:corsica29008 3.52309523 Corsica:CorsicaS03308 3.52825736 Corsica:Corsica03708 3.57189026 TSI:NA20787_SG 3.57624104 Tuscan:Tuscan 3.69224864 TSI:NA20586_SG 3.70532050 Tuscan:HGDP01161
Distance to: C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R1283_Cancelleria 1.85178292 Lazio:PG28 2.45615553 TSI:NA20786_SG 2.48781028 TSI:NA20797_SG 2.52774603 TSI:NA20800_SG 2.57029181 Marche:MarABQ080D 2.68834522 Umbria:PG03 3.16641753 TSI:NA20585_SG 3.29643747 TSI:NA20753_SG 3.33695969 Abruzzo:21_Behar_2013 3.35068650 TSI:NA20808_SG
Distance to: C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R36_Celio 1.77011299 Marche:MarACW030D 1.81620483 Marche:MarABG010D 1.90073670 Marche:MarADG030D 2.44376758 TSI:NA20822_SG 2.48887525 Umbria:PG11 2.58451156 Marche:MarABU050D 2.60411213 Marche:MarACV100D 2.62868789 TSI:NA20828_SG 2.70828359 TSI:NA20765_SG 2.87189833 TSI:NA20814_SG
Distance to: C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R35_Celio 2.71018450 Sicily:W-Sicily3_Behar_2013 2.71018450 Sicily:W-Sicily:3 2.82031913 Sicily:C-Sicily50_Behar_2013 2.82031913 Sicily:C-Sicily:50 2.86618213 Campania:NaN43TC 2.98610114 Sicily:Ag-Sicily8_Behar_2013 2.98610114 Sicily:Ag-Sicily:8 3.04217028 Apulia:ALP379 3.09234539 Basilicata:PG24 3.22965942 Campania:NaN46TC
Distance to: C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R121_S_Ercolano_Ne cropolis_Ostia 1.57429349 Abruzzo:17_Behar_2013 1.74542258 Marche:MarABY030D 2.12553523 Abruzzo:15_Behar_2013 2.26444254 Abruzzo:19_Behar_2013 2.29930424 Abruzzo:Alp140 2.32965663 Abruzzo:20_Behar_2013 2.44513803 Marche:MarACO100D 2.65966163 Abruzzo:23_Behar_2013 2.69659044 Abruzzo:16_Behar_2013 2.74545078 ITS7
Distance to: C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R120_S_Ercolano_Ne cropolis_Ostia 2.05625874 Lazio:PG28 2.34599659 Marche:MarABQ080D 2.73806501 TSI:NA20786_SG 2.76374746 Marche:MarABG010D 2.87812439 Lazio:PG30 3.03514415 TSI:NA20797_SG 3.05942805 Umbria:PG03 3.06747453 Abruzzo:21_Behar_2013 3.29454094 TSI:NA20808_SG 3.46043350 Marche:MarABP050D
Distance to: C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R118_S_Ercolano_Ne cropolis_Ostia 2.79808863 Abruzzo:21_Behar_2013 3.69858081 Abruzzo:13_Behar_2013 3.80214413 Umbria:PG15 4.13381180 Umbria:PG03 4.39109326 Lazio:NOR28 4.39491752 Umbria:PG07 4.53450108 Marche:MarABP050D 4.69179070 Lazio:NOR24 4.79051145 Marche:MarABI020D 4.83124208 Sicily:W-Sicily4_Behar_2013
Distance to: C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R117_S_Ercolano_Ne cropolis_Ostia 2.37248815 Abruzzo:Alp503 2.71679959 Campania:NaN58AC 3.25410510 Sicily:Ag-Sicily5_Behar_2013 3.25410510 Sicily:Ag-Sicily:5 3.63071618 Campania:NaN293SF 3.75123980 Basilicata:PG17 3.92036988 Sicily:SR64_Busby_2015 3.92036988 Sicily:Siracusa:SR64_LazaridisNat2014 4.02420178 Abruzzo:Alp380 4.20163064 Campania:NaN128LA
Distance to: C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R107_Crypta_Balbi 3.81175812 Apulia:cera9 3.93702934 Basilicata:PG19 4.14395946 Apulia:GS34 4.18424426 ITS5 4.25563156 Abruzzo:14_Behar_2013 4.43296740 Apulia:ALP379 4.47182289 Abruzzo:Alp090 4.48310160 Campania:NaN43TC 4.53683811 Sicily:E-Sicily18_Behar_2013 4.53683811 Sicily:E-Sicily:18
Distance to: C6_Iron_Age_Mediterranean:R437_(Latin_Prenestini_T ribe)_Palestrina_Selicata 3.60471913 Campania:NaN195ST 3.92443627 Sicily:W-Sicily7_Behar_2013 3.94927842 Campania:NaN43TC 4.15588739 Sicily:W-Sicily4_Behar_2013 4.22236900 Campania:NaN128LA 4.30268521 Sicily:Ag-Sicily5_Behar_2013 4.30268521 Sicily:Ag-Sicily:5 4.42922115 Campania:NaN212CR 4.76162787 Sicily:W-Sicily3_Behar_2013 4.76162787 Sicily:W-Sicily:3
Distance to: C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R836_Civitanova_Marche 2.08475418 Apulia:cera2 2.37815054 Apulia:Pu45 2.62598553 Campania:NaN238DM 2.64937729 Abruzzo:Alp616 2.66893237 Lazio:NOR24 2.67828303 Molise:PG26_Molise 2.79259736 Abruzzo:Alp503 2.83667058 Abruzzo:22_Behar_2013 2.91523584 Abruzzo:9_Behar_2013 3.07741775 Umbria:PG06
Distance to: C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R835_Civitanova_Marche 2.14340850 Sicily:SR48R_Busby_2015 2.14755675 Lazio:NOR28 2.76528480 Abruzzo:15_Behar_2013 2.83555991 Abruzzo:13_Behar_2013 2.97885884 Abruzzo:19_Behar_2013 2.98023489 Abruzzo:9_Behar_2013 2.99222325 ITS7 2.99551331 Abruzzo:17_Behar_2013 3.03037951 Abruzzo:Alp090 3.04276190 Molise:PG26_Molise
Distance to: C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R51_Centocelle_Necropoli s 1.70724925 Kos:GreeceKos5 2.88086792 Kos:GreeceKos7 3.27119244 Kos:GreeceKos2 3.46776585 Kos:GreeceKos1 3.54794307 Crete:Crete6 3.57396139 Kos:GreeceKos6 3.70310680 Campania:NaN77FAM 3.94040607 Crete:Crete10 4.17414662 Crete:Crete7 4.29199254 Crete:Crete5
Distance to: C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R49_Centocelle_Necropoli s 1.84048907 Apulia:GS32 2.10054755 Apulia:Pu45 2.32372546 Campania:NaN238DM 2.32673591 Campania:NaN293SF 2.38876537 Basilicata:PG25 2.83559518 Campania:NaN289RM 2.89884460 Apulia:cera2 2.98713910 Abruzzo:ALP205 2.99401069 Campania:NaN128LA 3.15472661 Campania:NaN212CR
Distance to: C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R47_Centocelle_Necropoli s 2.65904118 Sicily:TP05_Busby_2015 2.65904118 Sicily:Trapani:TP05_LazaridisNat2014 3.21403174 Sicily:Ag-Sicily5_Behar_2013 3.21403174 Sicily:Ag-Sicily:5 3.98035174 Campania:NaN58AC 4.15956729 Apulia:cera1 4.32443060 Sicily:W-Sicily1_Behar_2013 4.32443060 Sicily:W-Sicily:1 4.37859567 Campania:NaN195ST 4.44230796 Abruzzo:Alp503
The Roman Imperial average is not that fake.
If you divide the samples of Imperial and Late Antiquity Rome into 9 clusters, you see that Cluster 1 still looks a lot like the aggregate.
PCA
I divided the samples into these clusters
I got the following averagesCode:C1:R30,7.67,0,4.51,0.1,27.16,8.93,0.45,0.97,11.77,0.95,37.05,0.45 C1:R34,7.31,0.45,5.18,0.12,24.21,7.63,0,0.82,15.07,0,39.06,0.16 C1:R39,7.32,0.69,3.87,0.29,25.31,7.92,0,0,13.54,0.16,40.39,0.51 C1:R40,7.17,1,0.52,0.04,27.69,5.79,0,0,15.54,0,41.29,0.97 C1:R41,6.8,0,4.58,0.58,22.76,5.5,1.17,0.93,16.28,0.84,40.36,0.19 C1:R43,7.74,0,1.35,0,26.77,3.83,0.51,0,12.69,0,46.89,0.23 C1:R44,5.19,0,2.37,0,29.27,4.24,0,0,12.92,0,45.7,0.31 C1:R50,8.31,0,0.91,0,25.51,11.04,0.37,0,15.34,0.52,36.86,1.15 C1:R51,7.5,0,2.26,0,25.82,10.46,0,0,13.7,1.23,39.03,0 C1:R66,7.41,0,0,0.88,25.05,8.08,0,0,17.27,0,40.91,0.4 C1:R69,7.86,0.81,0.57,0,27.22,11.31,0,0,9.7,0,42.15,0.39 C1:R71,7.22,0,4.51,0,21.22,2.34,0,0,11.39,0,52.86,0.46 C1:R72,8.93,0,0.55,0,23.61,5.18,0,0,16.96,0.36,43.85,0.57 C1:R73,10.71,0,6.38,0,23.57,4.41,0.48,0.11,18.48,0,34.78,1.09 C1:R78,7.22,0,2.96,0,21.74,4.79,0,0.21,13.19,0.38,49.44,0.06 C1:R81,7.2,0,3.08,0,24.47,7.25,1.26,0,16.89,0.24,39.24,0.36 C1:R114,8.42,0,1.52,0,23.81,13.17,0.21,0,15.09,0,37.22,0.57 C1:R115,7.93,0.62,4.33,0,21.69,10.11,0,0,15.87,0,39.44,0 C1:R123,8.53,0,0,1.18,24.75,8.57,0,0,15.64,0,41.02,0.3 C1:R125,8.89,0,2.51,0.08,27.83,9.8,0.09,0,10.91,0,39.46,0.43 C1:R128,8.25,0,1.27,0,20.16,8.57,0.69,0,14.58,0,46.38,0.1 C1:R133,7.2,0.88,3.08,0.32,26.06,7.84,0,0,14.07,0,39.97,0.58 C1:R134,8.11,0,4.64,0.7,23.15,7.79,0,0.89,15.41,0,39.31,0.01 C1:R136,8.45,0.16,4.03,0.38,25.87,13,0,0,12.45,0,35.36,0.28 C1:R137,9.38,0,2.53,0.51,28.21,9.34,0,0.62,11.96,0,37.44,0 C1:R436,9.14,0,1.72,0.34,26.42,13.43,0.32,0,12.19,0.11,35.95,0.38 C1:R1543,8.92,0,5.86,0,21.15,9.11,0.41,0.36,14.95,0,38.92,0.31 C1:R1544,9.52,0.56,2.18,0,26.06,13.98,0,0,12.91,0,34.79,0 C1:R1545,7.65,0,0.11,0,25.35,8.55,0.79,0.23,15.75,0,40.81,0.75 C1:R1548,10.47,0,1.51,0,23.09,11.15,0,0.34,13.95,0,39.5,0 C2:R31,5.84,0.94,0.78,0,36.7,45.57,0,0,1.73,0,8.17,0.27 C2:R106,9.84,0,0.93,0,33.19,39.41,0.75,0,4.06,0,11,0.81 C2:R108,5.73,0,1.77,0.97,35.8,35.18,0,0,4.99,0,15.3,0.26 C3:R32,5.6,0,7.07,0,28.57,13.15,0.57,1.01,7.31,0.73,35.97,0 C3:R35,5.28,0,3.7,0,28.77,13.36,1.53,0.55,12.62,0,33.61,0.59 C3:R36,7.33,0,2.61,0,33.21,19.32,0,0,9.6,0,27.31,0.63 C3:R47,9.26,0.79,5.46,0,30.38,11.55,0,0.1,9.43,0,32.54,0.5 C3:R49,7.88,0,1.68,0.17,29.59,14.37,0,1.09,10.73,0,34.2,0.29 C3:R107,2.97,0.04,2.38,0,29.81,17.06,1.91,0,13.19,0,32.65,0 C3:R111,6.68,0,0.53,0.35,37.36,17.99,0,0,9.6,0,26.98,0.51 C3:R113,8.54,0,3.42,0,34.32,12.61,0.56,0,8.26,0,32.14,0.16 C3:R117,10.46,0,2.59,0,30.04,12.2,0,1.12,11.07,0,32.5,0.03 C3:R118,7.36,0.49,2.14,0,33.89,15.39,0,0,12.08,0,28.35,0.3 C3:R120,5.11,0.47,2.1,0,33.79,17.98,0,1.11,11.27,0,27.96,0.21 C3:R121,7.62,0,2.45,0,30.21,17.77,0.27,0.91,11.55,0,29.22,0 C3:R122,6.92,0,4.28,0,30.91,12.77,0,1.3,9.94,0.63,33.06,0.2 C3:R131,7.3,0.24,0.94,0.57,31.63,13.18,0.27,0,11.79,0,33.23,0.84 C3:R835,8.06,0.47,2.84,1.58,30.3,16.15,0,0,10.89,0,29.71,0 C3:R836,7.99,0,1.59,0,30.78,15.05,0,0,10.14,0,34.45,0 C3:R1549,9.21,0.08,3.15,0,27.32,20.37,0.6,0.6,11.39,0.18,26.54,0.57 C4:R33,3.61,0,0.7,0.17,37.01,26.51,0.61,0.35,7.08,0,23.68,0.28 C4:R105,6.44,0.32,4.78,0.53,36.54,27.56,0,0,5.54,0,17.97,0.32 C4:R109,4.62,0,1.54,0.22,41.49,28.6,0.05,0.93,7.38,0,15.18,0 C4:R110,4.57,1.19,2.38,0.76,41.91,24.74,0.07,0,5.24,0,18.96,0.17 C5:R37,2.14,1,2.7,0,50.7,31.46,0,0,4.24,0,7.65,0.12 C5:R116,5.47,0.42,1.19,0.19,43.87,34.16,0,0,3.74,0,10.63,0.33 C6:R38,11.97,0.24,2.94,0,17.99,1.99,0.16,0.3,18.03,0,46.26,0.13 C6:R42,8.78,0,3.65,0.61,16.08,0,0,1.86,24.68,0.29,43.58,0.49 C6:R70,9.87,0.04,2.27,0,21.13,2.38,0,1.9,20.78,0,41.64,0 C6:R75,7.1,0,4.53,0,21.52,4.26,0.62,1.18,16.8,0.53,43.46,0 C6:R76,7.56,0,3.38,0.5,17.19,5.76,0.79,0,19.2,0.06,45.56,0 C6:R126,8.87,0.13,2.7,0,21.68,1.28,0.37,0,18.5,0.5,45.28,0.69 C6:R130,9.5,0,4.35,0,24.11,2.09,0.93,0,17.15,0,41.34,0.53 C6:R1547,7.68,0,5.24,0.75,16.6,0,0.88,2.25,24.3,0,42.29,0 C6:R1550,12.14,0,7.34,0.46,14.89,1.07,0,1.17,23.92,0.34,38.67,0 C7:R45,5.04,0,9.86,0,27.46,7.12,0.8,0,16.44,0,32.4,0.88 C7:R80,3.6,0,11.4,0,27.69,7.57,0,3.33,16.8,0.28,28.39,0.94 C7:R132,1.24,0,17.94,1.71,24.66,4.24,0,6.41,16.58,0.29,24.91,2.02 C8:R67,18.93,0,4.46,0.81,9.71,3.86,0.41,1.41,17.74,0,42.1,0.57 C8:R68,17.66,0,3.38,0,12.85,0.04,0,1.12,19.87,0,44.63,0.45 C8:R1551,14.51,0,0,0.07,10.96,4.32,0,0,15.15,0,54.02,0.96 C9:R104,0,0,4.78,0.01,59.82,6.86,0,0.35,8.65,0,19.53,0
The aggregate average and its distance to the clusters aboveCode:C1,8.0806667,0.17233333,2.6296667,0.184,24.832667,8.437,0.225,0.18266667,14.215333,0.15966667,40.514333,0.367 C2,7.1366667,0.31333333,1.16,0.32333333,35.23,40.053333,0.25,0,3.5933333,0,11.49,0.44666667 C3,7.2688235,0.15176471,2.8782353,0.15705882,31.228235,15.31,0.33588235,0.45823529,10.638824,0.090588235,31.201176,0.28411765 C4,4.81,0.3775,2.35,0.42,39.2375,26.8525,0.1825,0.32,6.31,0,18.9475,0.1925 C5,3.805,0.71,1.945,0.095,47.285,32.81,0,0,3.99,0,9.14,0.225 C6,9.2744444,0.045555556,4.0444444,0.25777778,19.021111,2.0922222,0.41666667,0.96222222,20.373333,0.19111111,43.12,0.20444444 C7,3.2933333,0,13.066667,0.57,26.603333,6.31,0.26666667,3.2466667,16.606667,0.19,28.566667,1.28 C8,17.033333,0,2.6133333,0.29333333,11.173333,2.74,0.13666667,0.84333333,17.586667,0,46.916667,0.66 C9,0,0,4.78,0.01,59.82,6.86,0,0.35,8.65,0,19.53,0
Code:ITA_Rome_Imperial,8.385283,0.15339623,3.3233962,0.24660377,24.988302,8.8569811,0.23943396,0.49830189,14.63717,0.1190566,38.149434,0.40339623 Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial 2.57923195 C1 11.85719629 C6 12.09635867 C3 15.30094411 C7 19.73228403 C8 31.28639474 C4 40.89663860 C9 43.78734699 C2 45.26988777 C5
Why on earth would I we need to do that, when they are already divided into clusters based on haplotypes in the paper?
You may "need" to do that because in the paper to make the clusters they put together samples from every period.
Anyway, what I'm saying is just that one of those clusters is almost equal to the aggregate imperial Roman average.
The C6 cluster has existed in every period, since R437 in the Iron Age.
The most likely explanation for the expansion of that group in the imperial era is that southern Italian populations were included into Rome after the unification of the peninsula. The continued existence of it into the present is a testament that. Since foreign populations died away due to the urban graveyard effect.
I also agree that the first individuals more or less similar to modern southern Italians began to appear in the Iron Age.
I wouldn't be so sure that, look at the difference in Levant_PPN/Natufian between R437 and the Basilicata average which is the closest.
Target: Italian_Basilicata
Distance: 0.0258% / 0.02577213
54.5 TUR_Marmara_Barcin_N
15.1 RUS_Samara_HG
11.7 GEO_CHG
11.1 Levant_PPNB
7.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
Target: Italian_Basilicata
Distance: 0.0257% / 0.02572406
59.4 TUR_Marmara_Barcin_N
14.5 RUS_Samara_HG
12.0 GEO_CHG
7.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
6.3 Levant_Natufian_EpiP
Target: ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o:RMPR437b
Distance: 0.0281% / 0.02813351
65.3 TUR_Marmara_Barcin_N
13.6 GEO_CHG
11.2 RUS_Samara_HG
4.8 Levant_PPNB
4.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
0.9 ITA_Villabruna
Target: ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o:RMPR437b
Distance: 0.0283% / 0.02833805
68.1 TUR_Marmara_Barcin_N
13.3 GEO_CHG
11.1 RUS_Samara_HG
4.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
2.1 Levant_Natufian_EpiP
0.8 ITA_Villabruna
Provided the modeling is accurate to use, (I still am skeptical) I think it could have arrived early in the BA. We don't have samples from BA South Italy.
But also, we can see by looking at an individual basis, Southern Italians are heterogeneous. I seriously doubt averages are truly representive. I only have my phone at the moment because I'm busy with my real life, but I can demonstrate that when I have a chance.
Also, that could be Saracen input from the MA
I also have doubts of the reliability of using G25 in modeling. It is not the same as the tool that the Southern Arc paper used to model those source populations.
Last edited by Jovialis; 23-09-22 at 03:02.
Example of heterogeneity, for Puglia, my region, I get 2.89 all the way to 8.99
Distance to: Jovialis 2.89611809 Apulia:cera1 2.91856129 Apulia:cera2 3.34511584 Apulia:cera8 3.49479613 Apulia:Pu45 3.80621860 Apulia:cera9 3.92572286 Apulia:ALP583 4.45463803 Apulia:ALP379 4.52702993 Apulia:GS34 4.84129115 Apulia:Pu2 5.32649040 Apulia:GS32 6.43630329 Apulia:GS47 6.95402042 Apulia:Pu7 8.27652101 Apulia:Pu3 8.99969444 Apulia:Pu8
"Cera" is likely from ApuN
Bari, Foggia, Molise, and Abruzzo form a cluster, based on what I have seen in PCAs and genetic distance.
Distance to: Jovialis 1.36923336 Abruzzo:15_Behar_2013 1.66129468 Abruzzo:16_Behar_2013 1.71953482 Abruzzo:20_Behar_2013 1.85132385 Molise:PG26_Molise 1.94663813 Abruzzo:9_Behar_2013 2.16529444 Abruzzo:Alp140 2.67432234 Greece_NorthEast:GreeceNE231 2.71775643 Abruzzo:Alp090 2.73558038 Abruzzo:Alp616 2.75210828 Abruzzo:22_Behar_2013 2.82391572 Abruzzo:23_Behar_2013 2.89611809 Apulia:cera1 2.91856129 Apulia:cera2 3.19426048 Umbria:PG06 3.32980480 Molise:PG27 3.34511584 Apulia:cera8 3.38212951 Lazio:NOR28 3.39328749 Marche:MarABY030D 3.41641625 Abruzzo:17_Behar_2013 3.47597468 Marche:MarACO100D 3.49479613 Apulia:Pu45 3.70070264 Abruzzo:Alp503 3.77326119 Abruzzo:ALP161 3.78219513 Sicily:TP04_Busby_2015 3.80215728 Marche:MarACY030D
Here is Basilicata:
Distance to: Jovialis 4.19687979 Basilicata:PG24 4.30936190 Basilicata:PG21 4.52765944 Basilicata:PG18 4.57330296 Basilicata:PG17 4.62709412 Basilicata:PG19 5.10130375 Basilicata:PG25 6.19121959 Basilicata:PG20 6.35270808 Basilicata:PG16 6.69049326 Basilicata:PG22
Part of the heterogeneity is probably driven by the fact that the Mycenaeans, and more importantly, their substratum of Minoans were heterogenous. You have criticized my models in the past for using Minoan, but to me it makes perfect sense. As it does to the authors of Raveane et al. 2022. Sarno et al. 2022 also shows that Southern Italy has an affinity to the Ancient Greeks. Because perhaps some of the Ancient Greeks of Magna Grecia carried these genes.
Just a random thouth on the C6 cluster: If we assume (and I think it makes sense) that C6 represents the union between southern italics (osci, samniti etc.) + greeks from Magna Graecia, then it probably became progressively more common in the city of Rome well before the Empire: Rome was, at least from a linguistic point of view, an island between a sea of oscan speaking peoples. We know for instance that even during republican time latin language starts to show some kind of oscan influence. Maybe this slight linguistic change could have been matched by a demographic movement as well, with the increase of people resembling the individuals in the C6 cluster. Contamporary romans and inhabitants of Lazio do indeed plot between C7 and C6 clusters.
About this process of "oscanization" of Rome and of the whole Latium, however, I suggest reading the work of Clemente Merlo, provocatively titled "Lazio sannita ed Etruria latina?" (samnitic Latium and latin Etruria?): https://www.studietruschi.org/wp-con...06/SE01_18.pdf
Since the paper on Anatolia has been published, I can ask this: how on earth do you explain a doubling in Levantine ancestry? Not even Anatolians could cause it, you need a consistent direct gene flow from east Turkey or the Levant; indeed I've seen the minds of Anthrogenica arguing for such a case using G25, but G25 samples look to me fake, and I don't see why I ought to prefer them over the official ones. Furthermore, there is historically no evidence of such a ghost migration from the Levant to Italy, and the theory that it was caused by "east med migrants" during the imperial time doesn't hold water since you'd need a considerably higher input from the Levant in order to explain the "Italians'" result that come out on G25.
On G25 Sicilians and Campanians come out as having more Levant_PPNB (16-20%) than the peak present in Rome_medievalmodern at 10-12% according to the last paper (as a relative measure)
Both Osco-umbrians and Greeks were "invaders" from the perspectives of the people that inhabited south Italy before them, which could have been also Italic speakers but of the latino-falliscan branch. I dare to hypothesise that genetically the were on a cline from Latins to Sicily_BA/IA (themselves likely Italic speakers, at least Sicels), indeed I suspect the "east med" gene flow mentioned in the leaked PCA from the upcoming Campania paper was actually due to pre-existing locals being assimilated by Italic Campanians (who migrated in Campania during the X century).
My idea is similar, even if I tend to think that by the Iron age the minoan-like substratum could have already been absorbed by indoeuropean new comers.
My guess is the following: by in the middle_bronze age the genetic make up of southern Italy was still similar to to that of the Sicilian Bell Beaker individual (i.e., a neolithic population with just a tiny bit of steppe ancestry brought by contacts with Bell Beaker cultures):
Then, by the middle bronze age and above all during the bronze age collapse, there may have been two roughly contemporary movemente of peoples: proto-villanovans from the north, maybe bringing oscan languages; and minoan and mycenaean peoples from the Aegean Sea (the appereance of Minoan could have preceded, of course, the proto villanovans and Mycenaeans). This movement from the Aegean Sea is already been reported in Fernandes 2020 (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41559-020-1102-0). The union of this two element could have been the genetic make up of southern italic tribes (on a PCA, they may have plotted near the Crete Armenoi sample).
Finally, in the Iron Age, the Aegean component was furhter increased by the greek colonization of Magna Grecia. Et voilà le C6 cluster.
^^Don't forget all of the Levantine in everyone else, including Yamnaya according to the model Er Monnezz puts forwards by the new paper.
Funny, it seems like ethnicity doesn't exist, except when it comes to finding that one in select groups. At any rate, I digress.
However, that's why I also think the G25 model is erroneous.
What arrived in the Bronze Age? The earliest samples similar to southern Italians or their southern/eastern ancestry?
As for the first, again for me it is a flat no. They may even find some vaguely similar samples but they would be outliers and not the majority of the population.
Regarding the second, there is indeed a slight increase in Iran_N and CHG in southern Italy, but still below modern levels.
If you look at averages from an individual point of view, then all the peoples of the world are heterogeneous.
I honestly don't know, but I doubt that the Saracens in the Middle Ages left much behind, at least in mainland southern Italy.
Venosa samples dated to 700 AD score on average something like 2.1% Taforalt, which is even more than the Campania or Calabria average.
Ok, but if Global25 is not reliable, Dodecad K12b is infinitely less so. And the Southern Arc paper not only found Levant_PPN ancestry everywhere, but even exaggerated the amount of it. If I had done something like that, at the very least I would have been called a t-roll.
The variation that there is between a Calabrian and an Abruzzese, or between an Apulian and a Sicilian has much more recent roots; it has nothing to do with Mycenaeans and Minoans IMO.
The closeness to Mycenaeans is coincidental and is often exaggerated in my opinion, if you look at a PCA you see that the Italians and Mycenaeans are on 2 different clines.
Nobody has doubted more recent African and Near Eastern admixture into southerners, but not all southerners received more recent admixture; at least not at the same level. There's a slight amount of it in Sicilians and Calabrians according to the Raveane et al. 2022 paper. To me that points to the Moors and Saracens. Also we have cross-posted, because I too mentioned that Levantine was found everywhere according to the new model. But also, why not in the EBA? We know that there has been a CHG related pulse in the Mediterranean during this time. It could have also carried the Anatolia/Levant_PPN genes to southern Italy early on. We don't even have samples from this era in South Italy, so your doubt is just as good as my speculation. Again, this is just going by the model, because as I said earlier, I think once we find Basal Eurasians (verifying Lazaridis et al. 2018 pre-print), it could shake things up again. Levant_PPN is a mixed population. Natufians are a mixed population, that could be conflating with other sources.
Take a look at the dialects on the map, it is not beyond reason to assume that some of the ionic and doric speakers could have brought Anatolian and the so-called Levant PPN ancestry to the south in the Iron Age.Example of heterogeneity, for Puglia, my region, I get 2.89 all the way to 8.99
Distance to: Jovialis 2.89611809 Apulia:cera1 2.91856129 Apulia:cera2 3.34511584 Apulia:cera8 3.49479613 Apulia:Pu45 3.80621860 Apulia:cera9 3.92572286 Apulia:ALP583 4.45463803 Apulia:ALP379 4.52702993 Apulia:GS34 4.84129115 Apulia:Pu2 5.32649040 Apulia:GS32 6.43630329 Apulia:GS47 6.95402042 Apulia:Pu7 8.27652101 Apulia:Pu3 8.99969444 Apulia:Pu8
"Cera" is likely from ApuN
Bari, Foggia, Molise, and Abruzzo form a cluster, based on what I have seen in PCAs and genetic distance.
Distance to: Jovialis 1.36923336 Abruzzo:15_Behar_2013 1.66129468 Abruzzo:16_Behar_2013 1.71953482 Abruzzo:20_Behar_2013 1.85132385 Molise:PG26_Molise 1.94663813 Abruzzo:9_Behar_2013 2.16529444 Abruzzo:Alp140 2.67432234 Greece_NorthEast:GreeceNE231 2.71775643 Abruzzo:Alp090 2.73558038 Abruzzo:Alp616 2.75210828 Abruzzo:22_Behar_2013 2.82391572 Abruzzo:23_Behar_2013 2.89611809 Apulia:cera1 2.91856129 Apulia:cera2 3.19426048 Umbria:PG06 3.32980480 Molise:PG27 3.34511584 Apulia:cera8 3.38212951 Lazio:NOR28 3.39328749 Marche:MarABY030D 3.41641625 Abruzzo:17_Behar_2013 3.47597468 Marche:MarACO100D 3.49479613 Apulia:Pu45 3.70070264 Abruzzo:Alp503 3.77326119 Abruzzo:ALP161 3.78219513 Sicily:TP04_Busby_2015 3.80215728 Marche:MarACY030D
Here is Basilicata:
Distance to: Jovialis 4.19687979 Basilicata:PG24 4.30936190 Basilicata:PG21 4.52765944 Basilicata:PG18 4.57330296 Basilicata:PG17 4.62709412 Basilicata:PG19 5.10130375 Basilicata:PG25 6.19121959 Basilicata:PG20 6.35270808 Basilicata:PG16 6.69049326 Basilicata:PG22
Part of the heterogeneity is probably driven by the fact that the Mycenaeans, and more importantly, their substratum of Minoans were heterogenous. You have criticized my models in the past for using Minoan, but to me it makes perfect sense. As it does to the authors of Raveane et al. 2022. Sarno et al. 2022 also shows that Southern Italy has an affinity to the Ancient Greeks. Because perhaps some of the Ancient Greeks of Magna Grecia carried these genes.
I think that the shown average of Mycenaeans (Greece_LBA) could be a bit deceptive, since if I'm not mistaken is composed with some sample which are clearly Minoan-like as well (one at least, if I recall correctly). The vast majority of them (and the vast majority of Iron age greeks were probably more close to the southern italian cluster, i.e. more shifted both towards CHG and EHG.[...] if you look at a PCA you see that the Italians and Mycenaeans are on 2 different clines.
Do you think the upcoming Magna Graecia paper will be helpful in this matter or will it only add to the confusion?
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