K12b Analyzing the Mediterranean Cluster C6 from Antonio M et al. 2019

Jovialis

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Ethnic group
Italian
Y-DNA haplogroup
R-PF7566 (R-Y227216)
mtDNA haplogroup
H6a1b7
This is using the sample averages.

In chronological order:

pBitrM7.png


Highest score for cluster average:

xnOLO8X.png
 
7ExmyOL.png


Here is something interesting that I noticed using the 3D PCA for the Dodecad K12b coordinates. Albeit close, modern Greeks do not overlap with any of the Mediterranean-stock Romans. However, samples from Calabria-to-just a tad south of Romagna fit perfectly in the cloud.
 
7ExmyOL.png


Here is something interesting that I noticed using the 3D PCA for the Dodecad K12b coordinates. Albeit close, modern Greeks do not overlap with any of the Mediterranean-stock Romans. However, samples from Calabria-to-just a tad south of Romagna fit perfectly in the cloud.

d5zBhRx.png
 
^^
One of them is my newest closest match.

Distance to:Jovialis
2.77221933HRV_Trogir_Byz:I15744
2.85287574C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
3.25777531C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R54_Villa_Magna
3.26810343C6:Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R121_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
3.28435686C6:Imperial_Mediterranean:R835_Civitanova_Marche
3.31691121HRV_Trogir_Byz:I15462
3.78790179C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R60_Villa_Magna
3.80023683C6:Imperial_Mediterranean:R836_Civitanova_Marche
3.82032721HRV_Trogir_Byz:I15463
4.00470973C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R969_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
4.06354525C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R970_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
4.21379876C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R1290_Villa_Magna
4.31241232C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R57_Villa_Magna
4.71858029C5:Late_Antiquity_Eastern_Mediterranean:R122_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
4.83366321C6:Imperial_Mediterranean:R49_Centocelle_Necropolis
4.95721696C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R56_Villa_Magna
5.01646290C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R64_Villa_Magna
5.08145648HRV_Trogir_Byz:I15741
5.43155595ALB_Mdv:I14622
5.85387906C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R59_Villa_Magna
5.92195914C6:Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R35_Celio
5.92265988C6:Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R117_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
5.92911461C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R52_Villa_Magna
5.95918619TUR_Marmara_Balıkesir_Byz:I14822
5.99387187C6:Imperial_Mediterranean:R131_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis

 
Just an aside, having recently been to Civitavecchia, all during my cab ride to Rome; I thought of how incredibly stupid it was to assume that some samples from there had any meaningful implication on the genetics of Romans.

In fact, having been to many of the places of which are hot topics in this hobby, greatly reduced my confidence in the conclusions of what many papers and experts say.

I think it is easy for one to minimize the scale of these places when reading a paper. The difficulty of what it must have been like for earlier people to navigate the terrain, and so on.
 
McnhHXg.png


Byzantines from Trogir in modern Croatia were C6.

You might want to check with the Venosa samples (which do have quite some J2b L283), I have some kind of hand-waving theory that those samples are probably Byzantines derived. In the historical context, Venosa was on the boundary of byzantine influence (the goths ruled it only in 555 i think) thanks to Justinian. It must have been known somehow this affinity with the eastern empire because 8 centuries later Arberesh settle in its outskirts.

Anyway, I think Venosa might connect C6 to Tragidium (trogdir). Maybe I am wrong, and would love that someone more experienced gave a quick look at it.
 
Out of curiosity I decided to test the C6 cluster against all of the academic samples processed for Dodecad K12b. The closest match modern matches for the C6 cluster are all central and southern Italians. You don't need a stupid and fake "Imperial Roman" aggregate to see where Central and Southern Italians came from. Because these people already existed at the same time the Anatolia and Near eastern immigrants had arrived.

This is the most important: ‘According to a longstanding historical hypothesis, the Urban Graveyard Effect, the influx of migrants in city-centers disproportionately contributed to death rate over birth rate; a process which would contribute to observing individuals as “transient” migrants…’

https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2022/05/19/cities-are-where-people-go-to-flourish-and-then-die/comment-page-1/

Distance to:C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
1.73254149Apulia:pu45
1.88925911Apulia:cera2
1.90735419Apulia:ALP583
2.38413506Abruzzo:9_Behar_2013
2.54458248Campania:NaN238DM
2.58021317Abruzzo:Alp503
2.60397773Apulia:cera8
2.60451531Abruzzo:Alp616
2.64289614Molise:pG26_Molise
2.78348702Basilicata:pG25


Distance to:C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R970_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
4.35240164Abruzzo:20_Behar_2013
4.50435345Abruzzo:15_Behar_2013
4.81255649Abruzzo:Alp140
4.82554660Apulia:cera1
5.02570393Umbria:pG06
5.04917815Greece_NorthEast:GreeceNE231
5.13157870Umbria:pG04
5.18619321Marche:MarABY030D
5.19635449Abruzzo:16_Behar_2013
5.24240403Sicily:TP06_Busby_2015


Distance to:C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R969_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
1.79050272Marche:MarACO100D
1.88997354Abruzzo:17_Behar_2013
2.32198191Abruzzo:ALP161
2.44311277ITS5
2.78680821Molise:pG27
2.82345533Molise:pG26_Molise
2.86553660Marche:MarACY030D
2.92181450Umbria:pG03
2.93482538Abruzzo:23_Behar_2013
2.96651310Abruzzo:Alp162


Distance to:C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R65_Villa_Magna
1.81342218Basilicata:pG25
2.06397674Apulia:pu7
2.26141549Campania:NaN128LA
2.34503731Basilicata:pG20
2.36613609Apulia:GS47
2.42520102Campania:NaN293SF
2.43776537Apulia:GS32
2.56540445Abruzzo:ALP205
2.60457290Piedmont_o:ItalyPiedmont52
2.63717652Calabria:ALP596


Distance to:C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R64_Villa_Magna
2.73662201ITS2
2.83790416Sicily:W-Sicily5a_Behar_2013
2.83790416Sicily:W-Sicily:5a
3.45208633Abruzzo:Alp503
3.46287453Campania:NaN293SF
3.54998592Basilicata:pG17
3.59135072Campania:NaN58AC
3.92950379Apulia:ALP583
4.08959656Basilicata:pG25
4.14493667Piedmont_o:ItalyPiedmont52


Distance to:C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R60_Villa_Magna
2.69775833Abruzzo:23_Behar_2013
2.74324625Sicily:TP04_Busby_2015
3.01444854Abruzzo:16_Behar_2013
3.01572545Abruzzo:15_Behar_2013
3.06066986Abruzzo:Alp140
3.10943725Basilicata:pG21
3.12124975Abruzzo:20_Behar_2013
3.13847097Marche:MarABY030D
3.38371098Abruzzo:17_Behar_2013
3.45253530Greece_NorthEast:GreeceNE231


Distance to:C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R59_Villa_Magna
2.68985130Apulia:ALP379
2.73181259Abruzzo:ALP205
3.06298874Greece_Central:GreeceCentral8
3.07478455Basilicata:pG19
3.14485294Apulia:GS47
3.19050153Campania:NaN43TC
3.21909925Basilicata:pG25
3.31480014Sicily:W-Sicily5b_Behar_2013
3.33408158Basilicata:pG20
3.35423613Campania:NaN238DM


Distance to:C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R58_Villa_Magna
1.95397032Abruzzo:ALP205
2.25151060Apulia:GS47
2.36171548Greece_Central:GreeceCentral8
2.65700960Basilicata:pG20
2.99008361Basilicata:pG25
3.00639319Campania:NaN289RM
3.09226454Apulia:pu3
3.22636018Greece_F:GreeceF51k
3.47000000Sicily:W-Sicily5b_Behar_2013
3.50015714Campania:NaN238DM


Distance to:C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R57_Villa_Magna
1.66937114Abruzzo:ALP205
1.71067238Campania:NaN289RM
1.81218101Basilicata:pG25
1.85922027Apulia:ALP379
2.09602004Greece_Central:GreeceCentral8
2.29259678Apulia:ALP583
2.29484204Basilicata:pG20
2.57974805Apulia:GS47
2.60230667Basilicata:pG18
2.79973213Smyrna:GreeceSmyrna30


Distance to:C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R56_Villa_Magna
2.03612377Campania:NaN128LA
2.10983412Campania:NaN43TC
2.26808289Campania:NaN212CR
2.37602609Sicily:Ag-Sicily5_Behar_2013
2.37602609Sicily:Ag-Sicily:5
2.41422866Sicily:W-Sicily3_Behar_2013
2.41422866Sicily:W-Sicily:3
2.46503550Sicily:W-Sicily1_Behar_2013
2.46503550Sicily:W-Sicily:1
2.62571895Campania:NaN293SF


Distance to:C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R54_Villa_Magna
2.10430511ITS2
2.49625720Abruzzo:9_Behar_2013
2.59262415Abruzzo:Alp616
2.97223821Basilicata:pG18
2.97370140Molise:pG26_Molise
2.98949829Sicily:W-Sicily5a_Behar_2013
2.98949829Sicily:W-Sicily:5a
2.99676492Abruzzo:Alp140
3.12235488Smyrna:GreeceSmyrna30
3.13840724Abruzzo:16_Behar_2013


Distance to:C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R53_Villa_Magna
1.54712637Apulia:pu7
1.93129490Crete:Crete3
2.14811545Piedmont_o:ItalyPiedmont52
2.48975902Basilicata:pG16
2.69814751Campania:NaN77FAM
2.81471135ITS4
2.84021126Basilicata:pG20
2.88157943Calabria:ALP596
2.91218131Apulia:GS47
2.92692672Crete:Crete8


Distance to:C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R52_Villa_Magna
1.98206963Sicily:W-Sicily4_Behar_2013
1.99233531Sicily:W-Sicily7_Behar_2013
3.21235116Campania:NaN212CR
3.37253614Lazio:NOR28
3.54269671Abruzzo:Alp380
3.68176588Campania:NaN43TC
3.73946520Sicily:TP25_Busby_2015
3.76749253Lazio:NOR24
3.81165318Apulia:cera9
3.84325383Abruzzo:14_Behar_2013


Distance to:C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R1290_Villa_Magna
1.51917741Abruzzo:14_Behar_2013
1.78042130Campania:NaN238DM
2.21366212Campania:NaN212CR
2.40659511Molise:pG27
2.65124499Basilicata:pG19
2.70627050Molise:pG26_Molise
2.76490506Abruzzo:Alp616
2.77209307Apulia:cera8
2.82628732Abruzzo:9_Behar_2013
3.02231699Abruzzo:22_Behar_2013


Distance to:C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R1287_Cancelleria
2.68747093TSI:NA20787_SG
3.15582002Corsica:CorsicaS29908
3.23473337TSI:NA20529_SG
3.25851193Corsica:Corsica03708
3.42490876TSI:NA20800_SG
3.46310554Corsica:corsica29008
3.57787647TSI:NA20588_SG
3.65208160TSI:NA20752_SG
3.76720055TSI:NA20810_SG
3.79626132Lazio:pG28


Distance to:C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R1285_Cancelleria
2.92849791TSI:NA20588_SG
2.98464403Tuscan:HGDP01169
3.15456812TSI:NA20800_SG
3.44833293Corsica:corsica29008
3.52309523Corsica:CorsicaS03308
3.52825736Corsica:Corsica03708
3.57189026TSI:NA20787_SG
3.57624104Tuscan:Tuscan
3.69224864TSI:NA20586_SG
3.70532050Tuscan:HGDP01161


Distance to:C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R1283_Cancelleria
1.85178292Lazio:pG28
2.45615553TSI:NA20786_SG
2.48781028TSI:NA20797_SG
2.52774603TSI:NA20800_SG
2.57029181Marche:MarABQ080D
2.68834522Umbria:pG03
3.16641753TSI:NA20585_SG
3.29643747TSI:NA20753_SG
3.33695969Abruzzo:21_Behar_2013
3.35068650TSI:NA20808_SG


Distance to:C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R36_Celio
1.77011299Marche:MarACW030D
1.81620483Marche:MarABG010D
1.90073670Marche:MarADG030D
2.44376758TSI:NA20822_SG
2.48887525Umbria:pG11
2.58451156Marche:MarABU050D
2.60411213Marche:MarACV100D
2.62868789TSI:NA20828_SG
2.70828359TSI:NA20765_SG
2.87189833TSI:NA20814_SG


Distance to:C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R35_Celio
2.71018450Sicily:W-Sicily3_Behar_2013
2.71018450Sicily:W-Sicily:3
2.82031913Sicily:C-Sicily50_Behar_2013
2.82031913Sicily:C-Sicily:50
2.86618213Campania:NaN43TC
2.98610114Sicily:Ag-Sicily8_Behar_2013
2.98610114Sicily:Ag-Sicily:8
3.04217028Apulia:ALP379
3.09234539Basilicata:pG24
3.22965942Campania:NaN46TC


Distance to:C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R121_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
1.57429349Abruzzo:17_Behar_2013
1.74542258Marche:MarABY030D
2.12553523Abruzzo:15_Behar_2013
2.26444254Abruzzo:19_Behar_2013
2.29930424Abruzzo:Alp140
2.32965663Abruzzo:20_Behar_2013
2.44513803Marche:MarACO100D
2.65966163Abruzzo:23_Behar_2013
2.69659044Abruzzo:16_Behar_2013
2.74545078ITS7


Distance to:C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R120_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
2.05625874Lazio:pG28
2.34599659Marche:MarABQ080D
2.73806501TSI:NA20786_SG
2.76374746Marche:MarABG010D
2.87812439Lazio:pG30
3.03514415TSI:NA20797_SG
3.05942805Umbria:pG03
3.06747453Abruzzo:21_Behar_2013
3.29454094TSI:NA20808_SG
3.46043350Marche:MarABP050D


Distance to:C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R118_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
2.79808863Abruzzo:21_Behar_2013
3.69858081Abruzzo:13_Behar_2013
3.80214413Umbria:pG15
4.13381180Umbria:pG03
4.39109326Lazio:NOR28
4.39491752Umbria:pG07
4.53450108Marche:MarABP050D
4.69179070Lazio:NOR24
4.79051145Marche:MarABI020D
4.83124208Sicily:W-Sicily4_Behar_2013


Distance to:C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R117_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
2.37248815Abruzzo:Alp503
2.71679959Campania:NaN58AC
3.25410510Sicily:Ag-Sicily5_Behar_2013
3.25410510Sicily:Ag-Sicily:5
3.63071618Campania:NaN293SF
3.75123980Basilicata:pG17
3.92036988Sicily:SR64_Busby_2015
3.92036988Sicily:Siracusa:SR64_LazaridisNat2014
4.02420178Abruzzo:Alp380
4.20163064Campania:NaN128LA


Distance to:C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R107_Crypta_Balbi
3.81175812Apulia:cera9
3.93702934Basilicata:pG19
4.14395946Apulia:GS34
4.18424426ITS5
4.25563156Abruzzo:14_Behar_2013
4.43296740Apulia:ALP379
4.47182289Abruzzo:Alp090
4.48310160Campania:NaN43TC
4.53683811Sicily:E-Sicily18_Behar_2013
4.53683811Sicily:E-Sicily:18


Distance to:C6_Iron_Age_Mediterranean:R437_(Latin_Prenestini_Tribe)_Palestrina_Selicata
3.60471913Campania:NaN195ST
3.92443627Sicily:W-Sicily7_Behar_2013
3.94927842Campania:NaN43TC
4.15588739Sicily:W-Sicily4_Behar_2013
4.22236900Campania:NaN128LA
4.30268521Sicily:Ag-Sicily5_Behar_2013
4.30268521Sicily:Ag-Sicily:5
4.42922115Campania:NaN212CR
4.76162787Sicily:W-Sicily3_Behar_2013
4.76162787Sicily:W-Sicily:3


Distance to:C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R836_Civitanova_Marche
2.08475418Apulia:cera2
2.37815054Apulia:pu45
2.62598553Campania:NaN238DM
2.64937729Abruzzo:Alp616
2.66893237Lazio:NOR24
2.67828303Molise:pG26_Molise
2.79259736Abruzzo:Alp503
2.83667058Abruzzo:22_Behar_2013
2.91523584Abruzzo:9_Behar_2013
3.07741775Umbria:pG06


Distance to:C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R835_Civitanova_Marche
2.14340850Sicily:SR48R_Busby_2015
2.14755675Lazio:NOR28
2.76528480Abruzzo:15_Behar_2013
2.83555991Abruzzo:13_Behar_2013
2.97885884Abruzzo:19_Behar_2013
2.98023489Abruzzo:9_Behar_2013
2.99222325ITS7
2.99551331Abruzzo:17_Behar_2013
3.03037951Abruzzo:Alp090
3.04276190Molise:pG26_Molise


Distance to:C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R51_Centocelle_Necropolis
1.70724925Kos:GreeceKos5
2.88086792Kos:GreeceKos7
3.27119244Kos:GreeceKos2
3.46776585Kos:GreeceKos1
3.54794307Crete:Crete6
3.57396139Kos:GreeceKos6
3.70310680Campania:NaN77FAM
3.94040607Crete:Crete10
4.17414662Crete:Crete7
4.29199254Crete:Crete5


Distance to:C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R49_Centocelle_Necropolis
1.84048907Apulia:GS32
2.10054755Apulia:pu45
2.32372546Campania:NaN238DM
2.32673591Campania:NaN293SF
2.38876537Basilicata:pG25
2.83559518Campania:NaN289RM
2.89884460Apulia:cera2
2.98713910Abruzzo:ALP205
2.99401069Campania:NaN128LA
3.15472661Campania:NaN212CR


Distance to:C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R47_Centocelle_Necropolis
2.65904118Sicily:TP05_Busby_2015
2.65904118Sicily:Trapani:TP05_LazaridisNat2014
3.21403174Sicily:Ag-Sicily5_Behar_2013
3.21403174Sicily:Ag-Sicily:5
3.98035174Campania:NaN58AC
4.15956729Apulia:cera1
4.32443060Sicily:W-Sicily1_Behar_2013
4.32443060Sicily:W-Sicily:1
4.37859567Campania:NaN195ST
4.44230796Abruzzo:Alp503
 
You don't need a stupid and fake "Imperial Roman" aggregate

The Roman Imperial average is not that fake.

If you divide the samples of Imperial and Late Antiquity Rome into 9 clusters, you see that Cluster 1 still looks a lot like the aggregate.

PCA

Q2AXwvx.png


I divided the samples into these clusters

Code:
C1:R30,7.67,0,4.51,0.1,27.16,8.93,0.45,0.97,11.77,0.95,37.05,0.45
C1:R34,7.31,0.45,5.18,0.12,24.21,7.63,0,0.82,15.07,0,39.06,0.16
C1:R39,7.32,0.69,3.87,0.29,25.31,7.92,0,0,13.54,0.16,40.39,0.51
C1:R40,7.17,1,0.52,0.04,27.69,5.79,0,0,15.54,0,41.29,0.97
C1:R41,6.8,0,4.58,0.58,22.76,5.5,1.17,0.93,16.28,0.84,40.36,0.19
C1:R43,7.74,0,1.35,0,26.77,3.83,0.51,0,12.69,0,46.89,0.23
C1:R44,5.19,0,2.37,0,29.27,4.24,0,0,12.92,0,45.7,0.31
C1:R50,8.31,0,0.91,0,25.51,11.04,0.37,0,15.34,0.52,36.86,1.15
C1:R51,7.5,0,2.26,0,25.82,10.46,0,0,13.7,1.23,39.03,0
C1:R66,7.41,0,0,0.88,25.05,8.08,0,0,17.27,0,40.91,0.4
C1:R69,7.86,0.81,0.57,0,27.22,11.31,0,0,9.7,0,42.15,0.39
C1:R71,7.22,0,4.51,0,21.22,2.34,0,0,11.39,0,52.86,0.46
C1:R72,8.93,0,0.55,0,23.61,5.18,0,0,16.96,0.36,43.85,0.57
C1:R73,10.71,0,6.38,0,23.57,4.41,0.48,0.11,18.48,0,34.78,1.09
C1:R78,7.22,0,2.96,0,21.74,4.79,0,0.21,13.19,0.38,49.44,0.06
C1:R81,7.2,0,3.08,0,24.47,7.25,1.26,0,16.89,0.24,39.24,0.36
C1:R114,8.42,0,1.52,0,23.81,13.17,0.21,0,15.09,0,37.22,0.57
C1:R115,7.93,0.62,4.33,0,21.69,10.11,0,0,15.87,0,39.44,0
C1:R123,8.53,0,0,1.18,24.75,8.57,0,0,15.64,0,41.02,0.3
C1:R125,8.89,0,2.51,0.08,27.83,9.8,0.09,0,10.91,0,39.46,0.43
C1:R128,8.25,0,1.27,0,20.16,8.57,0.69,0,14.58,0,46.38,0.1
C1:R133,7.2,0.88,3.08,0.32,26.06,7.84,0,0,14.07,0,39.97,0.58
C1:R134,8.11,0,4.64,0.7,23.15,7.79,0,0.89,15.41,0,39.31,0.01
C1:R136,8.45,0.16,4.03,0.38,25.87,13,0,0,12.45,0,35.36,0.28
C1:R137,9.38,0,2.53,0.51,28.21,9.34,0,0.62,11.96,0,37.44,0
C1:R436,9.14,0,1.72,0.34,26.42,13.43,0.32,0,12.19,0.11,35.95,0.38
C1:R1543,8.92,0,5.86,0,21.15,9.11,0.41,0.36,14.95,0,38.92,0.31
C1:R1544,9.52,0.56,2.18,0,26.06,13.98,0,0,12.91,0,34.79,0
C1:R1545,7.65,0,0.11,0,25.35,8.55,0.79,0.23,15.75,0,40.81,0.75
C1:R1548,10.47,0,1.51,0,23.09,11.15,0,0.34,13.95,0,39.5,0
C2:R31,5.84,0.94,0.78,0,36.7,45.57,0,0,1.73,0,8.17,0.27
C2:R106,9.84,0,0.93,0,33.19,39.41,0.75,0,4.06,0,11,0.81
C2:R108,5.73,0,1.77,0.97,35.8,35.18,0,0,4.99,0,15.3,0.26
C3:R32,5.6,0,7.07,0,28.57,13.15,0.57,1.01,7.31,0.73,35.97,0
C3:R35,5.28,0,3.7,0,28.77,13.36,1.53,0.55,12.62,0,33.61,0.59
C3:R36,7.33,0,2.61,0,33.21,19.32,0,0,9.6,0,27.31,0.63
C3:R47,9.26,0.79,5.46,0,30.38,11.55,0,0.1,9.43,0,32.54,0.5
C3:R49,7.88,0,1.68,0.17,29.59,14.37,0,1.09,10.73,0,34.2,0.29
C3:R107,2.97,0.04,2.38,0,29.81,17.06,1.91,0,13.19,0,32.65,0
C3:R111,6.68,0,0.53,0.35,37.36,17.99,0,0,9.6,0,26.98,0.51
C3:R113,8.54,0,3.42,0,34.32,12.61,0.56,0,8.26,0,32.14,0.16
C3:R117,10.46,0,2.59,0,30.04,12.2,0,1.12,11.07,0,32.5,0.03
C3:R118,7.36,0.49,2.14,0,33.89,15.39,0,0,12.08,0,28.35,0.3
C3:R120,5.11,0.47,2.1,0,33.79,17.98,0,1.11,11.27,0,27.96,0.21
C3:R121,7.62,0,2.45,0,30.21,17.77,0.27,0.91,11.55,0,29.22,0
C3:R122,6.92,0,4.28,0,30.91,12.77,0,1.3,9.94,0.63,33.06,0.2
C3:R131,7.3,0.24,0.94,0.57,31.63,13.18,0.27,0,11.79,0,33.23,0.84
C3:R835,8.06,0.47,2.84,1.58,30.3,16.15,0,0,10.89,0,29.71,0
C3:R836,7.99,0,1.59,0,30.78,15.05,0,0,10.14,0,34.45,0
C3:R1549,9.21,0.08,3.15,0,27.32,20.37,0.6,0.6,11.39,0.18,26.54,0.57
C4:R33,3.61,0,0.7,0.17,37.01,26.51,0.61,0.35,7.08,0,23.68,0.28
C4:R105,6.44,0.32,4.78,0.53,36.54,27.56,0,0,5.54,0,17.97,0.32
C4:R109,4.62,0,1.54,0.22,41.49,28.6,0.05,0.93,7.38,0,15.18,0
C4:R110,4.57,1.19,2.38,0.76,41.91,24.74,0.07,0,5.24,0,18.96,0.17
C5:R37,2.14,1,2.7,0,50.7,31.46,0,0,4.24,0,7.65,0.12
C5:R116,5.47,0.42,1.19,0.19,43.87,34.16,0,0,3.74,0,10.63,0.33
C6:R38,11.97,0.24,2.94,0,17.99,1.99,0.16,0.3,18.03,0,46.26,0.13
C6:R42,8.78,0,3.65,0.61,16.08,0,0,1.86,24.68,0.29,43.58,0.49
C6:R70,9.87,0.04,2.27,0,21.13,2.38,0,1.9,20.78,0,41.64,0
C6:R75,7.1,0,4.53,0,21.52,4.26,0.62,1.18,16.8,0.53,43.46,0
C6:R76,7.56,0,3.38,0.5,17.19,5.76,0.79,0,19.2,0.06,45.56,0
C6:R126,8.87,0.13,2.7,0,21.68,1.28,0.37,0,18.5,0.5,45.28,0.69
C6:R130,9.5,0,4.35,0,24.11,2.09,0.93,0,17.15,0,41.34,0.53
C6:R1547,7.68,0,5.24,0.75,16.6,0,0.88,2.25,24.3,0,42.29,0
C6:R1550,12.14,0,7.34,0.46,14.89,1.07,0,1.17,23.92,0.34,38.67,0
C7:R45,5.04,0,9.86,0,27.46,7.12,0.8,0,16.44,0,32.4,0.88
C7:R80,3.6,0,11.4,0,27.69,7.57,0,3.33,16.8,0.28,28.39,0.94
C7:R132,1.24,0,17.94,1.71,24.66,4.24,0,6.41,16.58,0.29,24.91,2.02
C8:R67,18.93,0,4.46,0.81,9.71,3.86,0.41,1.41,17.74,0,42.1,0.57
C8:R68,17.66,0,3.38,0,12.85,0.04,0,1.12,19.87,0,44.63,0.45
C8:R1551,14.51,0,0,0.07,10.96,4.32,0,0,15.15,0,54.02,0.96
C9:R104,0,0,4.78,0.01,59.82,6.86,0,0.35,8.65,0,19.53,0

I got the following averages

Code:
C1,8.0806667,0.17233333,2.6296667,0.184,24.832667,8.437,0.225,0.18266667,14.215333,0.15966667,40.514333,0.367
C2,7.1366667,0.31333333,1.16,0.32333333,35.23,40.053333,0.25,0,3.5933333,0,11.49,0.44666667
C3,7.2688235,0.15176471,2.8782353,0.15705882,31.228235,15.31,0.33588235,0.45823529,10.638824,0.090588235,31.201176,0.28411765
C4,4.81,0.3775,2.35,0.42,39.2375,26.8525,0.1825,0.32,6.31,0,18.9475,0.1925
C5,3.805,0.71,1.945,0.095,47.285,32.81,0,0,3.99,0,9.14,0.225
C6,9.2744444,0.045555556,4.0444444,0.25777778,19.021111,2.0922222,0.41666667,0.96222222,20.373333,0.19111111,43.12,0.20444444
C7,3.2933333,0,13.066667,0.57,26.603333,6.31,0.26666667,3.2466667,16.606667,0.19,28.566667,1.28
C8,17.033333,0,2.6133333,0.29333333,11.173333,2.74,0.13666667,0.84333333,17.586667,0,46.916667,0.66
C9,0,0,4.78,0.01,59.82,6.86,0,0.35,8.65,0,19.53,0

The aggregate average and its distance to the clusters above

Code:
ITA_Rome_Imperial,8.385283,0.15339623,3.3233962,0.24660377,24.988302,8.8569811,0.23943396,0.49830189,14.63717,0.1190566,38.149434,0.40339623

Distance to:    ITA_Rome_Imperial
2.57923195    C1
11.85719629    C6
12.09635867    C3
15.30094411    C7
19.73228403    C8
31.28639474    C4
40.89663860    C9
43.78734699    C2
45.26988777    C5
 
Why on earth would I we need to do that, when they are already divided into clusters in the paper?

You may "need" to do that because in the paper to make the clusters they put together samples from every period.

Anyway, what I'm saying is just that one of those clusters is almost equal to the aggregate imperial Roman average.
 
You may "need" to do that because in the paper to make the clusters they put together samples from every period.

Anyway, what I'm saying is just that one of those clusters is almost equal to the aggregate imperial Roman average.

The C6 cluster has existed in every period, since R437 in the Iron Age.

The most likely explanation for the expansion of that group in the imperial era is that southern Italian populations were included into Rome after the unification of the peninsula. The continued existence of it into the present is a testament that. Since foreign populations died away due to the urban graveyard effect.
 
The C6 cluster has existed in every period, since R437 in the Iron Age.

I also agree that the first individuals more or less similar to modern southern Italians began to appear in the Iron Age.

Since foreign populations died away due to the urban graveyard effect.

I wouldn't be so sure that, look at the difference in Levant_PPN/Natufian between R437 and the Basilicata average which is the closest.

Target: Italian_Basilicata
Distance: 0.0258% / 0.02577213
54.5 TUR_Marmara_Barcin_N
15.1 RUS_Samara_HG
11.7 GEO_CHG
11.1 Levant_PPNB
7.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

Target: Italian_Basilicata
Distance: 0.0257% / 0.02572406
59.4 TUR_Marmara_Barcin_N
14.5 RUS_Samara_HG
12.0 GEO_CHG
7.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
6.3 Levant_Natufian_EpiP

Target: ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o:RMPR437b
Distance: 0.0281% / 0.02813351
65.3 TUR_Marmara_Barcin_N
13.6 GEO_CHG
11.2 RUS_Samara_HG
4.8 Levant_PPNB
4.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
0.9 ITA_Villabruna

Target: ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o:RMPR437b
Distance: 0.0283% / 0.02833805
68.1 TUR_Marmara_Barcin_N
13.3 GEO_CHG
11.1 RUS_Samara_HG
4.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
2.1 Levant_Natufian_EpiP
0.8 ITA_Villabruna
 
Provided the modeling is accurate to use, (I still am skeptical) I think it could have arrived early in the BA. We don't have samples from BA South Italy.
But also, we can see by looking at an individual basis, Southern Italians are heterogeneous. I seriously doubt averages are truly representive. I only have my phone at the moment because I'm busy with my real life, but I can demonstrate that when I have a chance.
Also, that could be Saracen input from the MA
I also have doubts of the reliability of using G25 in modeling. It is not the same as the tool that the Southern Arc paper used to model those source populations.
 
Last edited:
Example of heterogeneity, for Puglia, my region, I get 2.89 all the way to 8.99

Distance to:Jovialis
2.89611809Apulia:cera1
2.91856129Apulia:cera2
3.34511584Apulia:cera8
3.49479613Apulia:pu45
3.80621860Apulia:cera9
3.92572286Apulia:ALP583
4.45463803Apulia:ALP379
4.52702993Apulia:GS34
4.84129115Apulia:pu2
5.32649040Apulia:GS32
6.43630329Apulia:GS47
6.95402042Apulia:pu7
8.27652101Apulia:pu3
8.99969444Apulia:pu8


"Cera" is likely from ApuN

Bari, Foggia, Molise, and Abruzzo form a cluster, based on what I have seen in PCAs and genetic distance.

Dnb8VxN.png


Distance to:Jovialis
1.36923336Abruzzo:15_Behar_2013
1.66129468Abruzzo:16_Behar_2013
1.71953482Abruzzo:20_Behar_2013
1.85132385Molise:pG26_Molise
1.94663813Abruzzo:9_Behar_2013
2.16529444Abruzzo:Alp140
2.67432234Greece_NorthEast:GreeceNE231
2.71775643Abruzzo:Alp090
2.73558038Abruzzo:Alp616
2.75210828Abruzzo:22_Behar_2013
2.82391572Abruzzo:23_Behar_2013
2.89611809Apulia:cera1
2.91856129Apulia:cera2
3.19426048Umbria:pG06
3.32980480Molise:pG27
3.34511584Apulia:cera8
3.38212951Lazio:NOR28
3.39328749Marche:MarABY030D
3.41641625Abruzzo:17_Behar_2013
3.47597468Marche:MarACO100D
3.49479613Apulia:pu45
3.70070264Abruzzo:Alp503
3.77326119Abruzzo:ALP161
3.78219513Sicily:TP04_Busby_2015
3.80215728Marche:MarACY030D


Hq75FBT.png


Here is Basilicata:

Distance to:Jovialis
4.19687979Basilicata:pG24
4.30936190Basilicata:pG21
4.52765944Basilicata:pG18
4.57330296Basilicata:pG17
4.62709412Basilicata:pG19
5.10130375Basilicata:pG25
6.19121959Basilicata:pG20
6.35270808Basilicata:pG16
6.69049326Basilicata:pG22


Part of the heterogeneity is probably driven by the fact that the Mycenaeans, and more importantly, their substratum of Minoans were heterogenous. You have criticized my models in the past for using Minoan, but to me it makes perfect sense. As it does to the authors of Raveane et al. 2022. Sarno et al. 2022 also shows that Southern Italy has an affinity to the Ancient Greeks. Because perhaps some of the Ancient Greeks of Magna Grecia carried these genes.

1RGLsZw.png


obhq3UZ.png
 
The C6 cluster has existed in every period, since R437 in the Iron Age.

The most likely explanation for the expansion of that group in the imperial era is that southern Italian populations were included into Rome after the unification of the peninsula. The continued existence of it into the present is a testament that. Since foreign populations died away due to the urban graveyard effect.

Just a random thouth on the C6 cluster: If we assume (and I think it makes sense) that C6 represents the union between southern italics (osci, samniti etc.) + greeks from Magna Graecia, then it probably became progressively more common in the city of Rome well before the Empire: Rome was, at least from a linguistic point of view, an island between a sea of oscan speaking peoples. We know for instance that even during republican time latin language starts to show some kind of oscan influence. Maybe this slight linguistic change could have been matched by a demographic movement as well, with the increase of people resembling the individuals in the C6 cluster. Contamporary romans and inhabitants of Lazio do indeed plot between C7 and C6 clusters.

About this process of "oscanization" of Rome and of the whole Latium, however, I suggest reading the work of Clemente Merlo, provocatively titled "Lazio sannita ed Etruria latina?" (samnitic Latium and latin Etruria?): https://www.studietruschi.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/SE01_18.pdf
 
I also agree that the first individuals more or less similar to modern southern Italians began to appear in the Iron Age.



I wouldn't be so sure that, look at the difference in Levant_PPN/Natufian between R437 and the Basilicata average which is the closest.

Target: Italian_Basilicata
Distance: 0.0258% / 0.02577213
54.5 TUR_Marmara_Barcin_N
15.1 RUS_Samara_HG
11.7 GEO_CHG
11.1 Levant_PPNB
7.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

Target: Italian_Basilicata
Distance: 0.0257% / 0.02572406
59.4 TUR_Marmara_Barcin_N
14.5 RUS_Samara_HG
12.0 GEO_CHG
7.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
6.3 Levant_Natufian_EpiP

Target: ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o:RMPR437b
Distance: 0.0281% / 0.02813351
65.3 TUR_Marmara_Barcin_N
13.6 GEO_CHG
11.2 RUS_Samara_HG
4.8 Levant_PPNB
4.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
0.9 ITA_Villabruna

Target: ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o:RMPR437b
Distance: 0.0283% / 0.02833805
68.1 TUR_Marmara_Barcin_N
13.3 GEO_CHG
11.1 RUS_Samara_HG
4.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
2.1 Levant_Natufian_EpiP
0.8 ITA_Villabruna

Since the paper on Anatolia has been published, I can ask this: how on earth do you explain a doubling in Levantine ancestry? Not even Anatolians could cause it, you need a consistent direct gene flow from east Turkey or the Levant; indeed I've seen the minds of Anthrogenica arguing for such a case using G25, but G25 samples look to me fake, and I don't see why I ought to prefer them over the official ones. Furthermore, there is historically no evidence of such a ghost migration from the Levant to Italy, and the theory that it was caused by "east med migrants" during the imperial time doesn't hold water since you'd need a considerably higher input from the Levant in order to explain the "Italians'" result that come out on G25.
On G25 Sicilians and Campanians come out as having more Levant_PPNB (16-20%) than the peak present in Rome_medievalmodern at 10-12% according to the last paper (as a relative measure)


FckYKz3WAAQSEF5
 
Just a random thouth on the C6 cluster: If we assume (and I think it makes sense) that C6 represents the union between southern italics (osci, samniti etc.) + greeks from Magna Graecia, then it probably became progressively more common in the city of Rome well before the Empire: Rome was, at least from a linguistic point of view, an island between a sea of oscan speaking peoples. We know for instance that even during republican time latin language starts to show some kind of oscan influence. Maybe this slight linguistic change could have been matched by a demographic movement as well, with the increase of people resembling the individuals in the C6 cluster. Contamporary romans and inhabitants of Lazio do indeed plot between C7 and C6 clusters.

About this process of "oscanization" of Rome and of the whole Latium, however, I suggest reading the work of Clemente Merlo, provocatively titled "Lazio sannita ed Etruria latina?" (samnitic Latium and latin Etruria?): https://www.studietruschi.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/SE01_18.pdf

Both Osco-umbrians and Greeks were "invaders" from the perspectives of the people that inhabited south Italy before them, which could have been also Italic speakers but of the latino-falliscan branch. I dare to hypothesise that genetically the were on a cline from Latins to Sicily_BA/IA (themselves likely Italic speakers, at least Sicels), indeed I suspect the "east med" gene flow mentioned in the leaked PCA from the upcoming Campania paper was actually due to pre-existing locals being assimilated by Italic Campanians (who migrated in Campania during the X century).
 
Both Osco-umbrians and Greeks were "invaders" from the perspectives of the people that inhabited south Italy before them, which could have been also Italic speakers but of the latino-falliscan branch. I dare to hypothesise that genetically the were on a cline from Latins to Sicily_BA/IA (themselves likely Italic speakers, at least Sicels), indeed I suspect the "east med" gene flow mentioned in the leaked PCA from the upcoming Campania paper was actually due to pre-existing locals being assimilated by Italic Campanians (who migrated in Campania during the X century).


My idea is similar, even if I tend to think that by the Iron age the minoan-like substratum could have already been absorbed by indoeuropean new comers.

My guess is the following: by in the middle_bronze age the genetic make up of southern Italy was still similar to to that of the Sicilian Bell Beaker individual (i.e., a neolithic population with just a tiny bit of steppe ancestry brought by contacts with Bell Beaker cultures):
image.png


Then, by the middle bronze age and above all during the bronze age collapse, there may have been two roughly contemporary movemente of peoples: proto-villanovans from the north, maybe bringing oscan languages; and minoan and mycenaean peoples from the Aegean Sea (the appereance of Minoan could have preceded, of course, the proto villanovans and Mycenaeans). This movement from the Aegean Sea is already been reported in Fernandes 2020 (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41559-020-1102-0). The union of this two element could have been the genetic make up of southern italic tribes (on a PCA, they may have plotted near the Crete Armenoi sample).

Finally, in the Iron Age, the Aegean component was furhter increased by the greek colonization of Magna Grecia. Et voilà le C6 cluster.
 
^^Don't forget all of the Levantine in everyone else, including Yamnaya according to the model Er Monnezz puts forwards by the new paper.

OqXf5Nz.jpg


Funny, it seems like ethnicity doesn't exist, except when it comes to finding that one in select groups. At any rate, I digress.

However, that's why I also think the G25 model is erroneous.
 

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