David Reich Southern Arc Paper Abstract

Riverman: Everything you are hypothesizing is just that, an Hypothesis. Again, you don't like the fact that the Anatolian branch of IE has been dated to at least 4200 BC (Prof. Anthony) and Hittite is the oldest of the Anatolian Branches.

Even if its that old, nobody can prove it was in Anatolia by 4.000 BC, but only that it might have existed by that time, in any other place, most likely the Western steppe.

You move the Pre-Anatolian split to 4000 BC you still can't reconcile it with Corded Ware civilization since that does not appear to about 3000 BC, even if it developed from an earlier culture, the Yamnaya civilization dates to only back to 3300 BC. So while Yamnaya and Corded Ware overlapped and likely were influenced by each other via trade etc. You still have a 700 year gap using your 4000 BC state as the start of the Anatolian IE branch.

Corded decorated pottery groups is not the same as "Corded Ware" in the sense of a specific cultural formation. These are Western steppe groups, predecessors not just of Corded Ware, but also of other steppe groups, primarily Cernavoda and other dead ends as well as later branches like Cotofeni and Usatovo among others.
In any case, its Cernavoda and related groups in the Balkans you have to look at, not Central-Eastern European Corded Ware in the narrower sense.

Corded decorated pottery and zoomorphic scepters being an earlier and more Balkan moving Western steppe element from the sphere of Sredny Stog. Central-Eastern European Corded Ware being a different branch from the same tree.

Whatever scenario you posit and alternative one can be put forth. A Proto-IE homeland in Armenia/Northern Iran can in terms of economy easily explain a move of IE to Anatolia, a language dispersal of IE with minimal to no genetic turnover in Bronze Age Anatolia. The two areas were trading and sharing technology (farming) since the Neolithic with little Genetic turnover in Neolithic Anatolia (e.g. Feldman et al 2019 as I cited earlier). The Reich abstract is indicating that even into the Bronze Age, there was still no genetic turnover in Anatolia.

Proto-Anatolians is just one branch, easy to explain from the Balkan Cernavoda related groups, But all the other IE have a direct descendency from Sredny Stog by and large, and those don't have younger Anatolian influences of significance after hte Lower-Middle Don cultures which directly precede Sredny Stog (and Khvalynsk).

You may be correct some early Steppe tribe came into Anatolia but you are going to have find DNA samples that support it. As of now, we have an Anatolian IE branch with no Steppe ancestry.

They just need to follow the Cernavoda trail.

Absent Steppe ancestry in the period when the Anatolian IE branch first developed, the best explanation to me is the language was dispersed into Anatolia from Armenia/Northern Iran.

The problem with this is that the great majority of IE/all LPIE being from the steppe and they have no such influence of significance.

So in my opinion, not having Steppe admixture into Anatolia at the time of the Anatolian IE branch first appeared

It first appeared when it was written down, we have actual Anatolian speakers in the record. Before that, there is no evidence for an IE presence in Anatolia and in all regions they lived we rather have evidence of preceding and nearby non-IE speakers, which can't be said for the steppe, by the way. Look at the gap between your proposed branching event (4.000 BC) and the first recorded Anatolian language evidence. A lot can happen in more than thousand years.

We are talking about 2.000 years of migrations, fusions, mixtures between the steppe and Anatolia. We just need to have steppe people nearby, which won't be a problem. But even the Cernavoda samples might be highly mixed and only have little steppe, but their migration and sheer existence being clearly steppe induced.


could be reconciled to your views/theory, if DNA can document some EHG into the South Caucuses just before/concurrently with the development of the Anatolian IE branch. From there, a dispersal of the early IE that lead to the Anatolian Branch would not in my review require any Steppe admixture into Bronze Age Anatolia (circa 4200 BC) because as we have seen and as I noted before, the language could have been adopted in Anatolia via trade contacts with IE speaking peoples in the Southern Caucus region. Evidence already suggest that the Hittite language used writing methods they got from Mesopotamia so there clearly was interaction between Anatolia and the Northern Iran, Armenia ancient Iraq (Mesopotamia) not only in the Neolithic period but well into the Bronze age.[/QUOTE]
 
"no evidence for systematic differences in steppe ancestry among social strata, such as those of the elite buried at the Palace of Nestor in Pylos" - Reich didn't mean to dismiss steppe ancestry in Proto-Greek origin by saying this, just that the dispersion of IE languages had nothing to do with elites.

So you think what happened in Greece? Mycenaeans culture could spread there either by a major migration or a minor elites, by considering this fact that geneticists have found less than 7% EHG ancestry in Mycenaeans.
 
Davidski said...

@vAsiSTha

I've seen Anatolian samples from Reich's paper as well as from other upcoming papers.

And my position is that proto-Anatolians migrated into Anatolia from the steppe via the Balkans.
:unsure:


p.s
so he doesn't like the caucasus root theory

KingJohn: Well if that can be documented by Reich with DNA, then that would provide evidence that the Proto-Anatolian IE branch has its origins in the Steppe. However, why does the abstract from the New Reich paper as it is stated now do not make such claims that Davidski is making? Now, unless that abstract was a leaked earlier draft that was edited after peer review and what is currently in the abstract in the first post in this thread is not what is in the final published version.
 
Riverman:

All you stated in post #1042 is if you are honest an Hypothesis (Hypotheses). Yes the Proto Anatolian IE dated to 4200 BC is a current estimate, but it is not mine. Ok, so I was being to Narrow and focusing specifically on Corded Ware Culture/Civilization. Ok, you suggest well go beyond a Narrow Central-Eastern European territory of Corded ware and think of other groups that were influenced by Corded ware, etc, etc.

Like I said you may be proven correct, but I want to see the evidence. And again, nothing I am stating in anyway rejects the influence of the Yamanaya and Corded Ware and its impact on the spread of IE language into Central, Northern, Western and Southern Europe, and its major genetic impact on Northern and NW Europe and also Central Europe. That is not in question as there is strong empirical data supporting the Kurgan Hypothesis regarding the spread of IE in those areas I noted above.

The only question that I am neutral on is where is the original Proto-IE language homeland. That is it? It may turn out to be the Steppe and thus the Kurgan Hypothesis explains not only the major dispersal of IE languages into the rest of Europe, but also the original Proto IE language homeland.

Again as I said numerous times, I have no emotional attachment to where the PIE language Homeland is, Steppe or South of the Caucus Mountains (Armenia/Northern Iran).
 
Riverman:

All you stated in post #1042 is if you are honest an Hypothesis (Hypotheses). Yes the Proto Anatolian IE dated to 4200 BC is a current estimate, but it is not mine. Ok, so I was being to Narrow and focusing specifically on Corded Ware Culture/Civilization. Ok, you suggest well go beyond a Narrow Central-Eastern European territory of Corded ware and think of other groups that were influenced by Corded ware, etc, etc.

Like I said you may be proven correct, but I want to see the evidence.

We have archaeological evidence of steppe influenced people from Cernavoda-related groups moving to Asia minor via Troy 1.000 years before the earliest attestation of Anatolian languages. What do we have moving in the other direction which is even remotely as important?

You know, any theory has to link both sides, Anatolia and the steppe. Its easy to link the steppe with an expansion into Anatolia, from the Balkans. The opposite is just not there, it's comletely missing - unless something was hidden all the time, which is even more ridiculous, if considering that the full steppe ancestral package is at least 5.000 BC old (Lower-Middle Don cultural groups) and dominated by steppe lineages.

Its not about liking or disliking anything, I just see no logical path for an Anatolian-Iranian origin, it just isn't there in the PIE time frame. If someone would posit that the Lower Don people spoke a language they brought from the Caucasus-Armenia-Iran area of things, ok, that's possible.
But that would still mean steppe people moved to Anatolia spreading Proto-Anatolian there, because the time frame doesn't fit to a local origin.
And why got the CHG-Iranian linked lineages and cultural traits submerged.

Too many pieces won't fit with an Anatolian-Armenian-Iran whatever origin. Not even for the earlier phase, but for PIE its totally unlikely, because the time frame doesn't fit.
 
I don't know why some people say south of Caucasus and Iran was the homeland of Indo-Europeans but they think the steppe had still a role! About Mycenaeans we read: "they had at least three-quarters of their ancestry from the first Neolithic farmers of western Anatolia and the Aegean, and most of the remainder from ancient populations related to those of the Caucasus and Iran.", the second land is the homeland of Indo-Europeans, end of story.
 
KingJohn: Well if that can be documented by Reich with DNA, then that would provide evidence that the Proto-Anatolian IE branch has its origins in the Steppe. However, why does the abstract from the New Reich paper as it is stated now do not make such claims that Davidski is making? Now, unless that abstract was a leaked earlier draft that was edited after peer review and what is currently in the abstract in the first post in this thread is not what is in the final published version.

Davidski has been wrong before as Angela has often indicated.
We'll know in a few days.

What is really annoying is the whiff of Eastern European nationalism behind the Steppe IE Theory.:mad:
 
Davidski has been wrong before as Angela has often indicated.
We'll know in a few days.

What is really annoying is the whiff of Eastern European nationalism behind the Steppe IE Theory.:mad:

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Ok but my question still stands. What Proto Indo European Language has been assigned to the Sredny Stog culture from the period 4500-3500 BC?

The scholarly consensus is that the now extinct Anatolian Indo European Language branch has the oldest IE language (Hittite) and Professor Anthony himself suggest that the Proto-Anatolian IE branch dates to as early as 4200 BC. So 1) Is there a Proto-Indo European language from Sredny Stog that can be placed before between from period 4500-4200 BC that can be potentially linked to the Anatolian IE branch and 2) Do we have genetic data suggesting migrating Males from Ukraine (Sredny Stog) brought the Proto-IE language from which the Anatolian IE branch was derived from?

Well, this isn't confirmed but many scholars do believe Italic and Celtic have a substrate from a very early IE language, resembling Hittite or Tocharian. This would line up with Hittite coming from the Steppe and spreading not only into Anatolia, but also into Steppe enclaves in the Balkans and Hungary before being replaced by later waves of Bell Beakers, Proto-Greeks, Scythians, etc.
 
If "language has nothing to do with Y signature at all", so how do you know that those men who invaded West Europe in the 3rd millennium BC were IE-speakers? They lived for a long time in the Central Europe where Rhaetians and other non-IE people lived.

I think it does and it doesn't. Who says they invaded? They were herders who may have felt pressure to leave the steppes and encountered an already declining population in central Europe. EEF basically collapsed for a number of reasons such as drought, disease, competition and local warfare. All these don't even consider the incoming pastoralists who may have had a varying degree of aggression as well. If you look at EBA Serbia for instance, this is a homogenized population with a significant R1b element to it, but it's not close to R1b in a Beaker population for instance. To me, this does not indicate a mass slaughter of locals, although, it certainly doesn't refute them being "Indo-European" speaking, as we know they were illiterates.

I'm just not certain why Los Millares and other megalithic cultures died off to be replaced by BB and related derived cultures such as El Argar in the Bronze Age. Since this is in contrast to the Balkans and obviously cannot simply be a matter of violence.
 
I would be most surprised if the majority of early IE-speaking Greeks and Italics looked much like these characters.

In fact most East Europeans look more like Putin than these athletes.

I suspect the common blonde hair trait we know in these Baltic populations are earlier than the Indo-Europeans and were acquired via the absorption of the hunter-gather women in said region. That's not to say their facial structure was much different. These folks look Polish to me. Putin is just another common face in Russia, which is already quite multi-ethnic.

I think by the time of Bell Beaker, the men commonly looked something like Julius Caesar with the brachycephalic skull. (Unless someone can say these busts are fake) The issue is that southern Europe has been inherently multi-ethnic since the arrival of this so called "steppe" population. He's just a generic central European looking guy who was probably R1b.
 
Riverman: Everything you are hypothesizing is just that, an Hypothesis. Again, you don't like the fact that the Anatolian branch of IE has been dated to at least 4200 BC (Prof. Anthony) and Hittite is the oldest of the Anatolian Branches. You move the Pre-Anatolian split to 4000 BC you still can't reconcile it with Corded Ware civilization since that does not appear to about 3000 BC, even if it developed from an earlier culture, the Yamnaya civilization dates to only back to 3300 BC. So while Yamnaya and Corded Ware overlapped and likely were influenced by each other via trade etc. You still have a 700 year gap using your 4000 BC state as the start of the Anatolian IE branch.

Whatever scenario you posit and alternative one can be put forth. A Proto-IE homeland in Armenia/Northern Iran can in terms of economy easily explain a move of IE to Anatolia, a language dispersal of IE with minimal to no genetic turnover in Bronze Age Anatolia. The two areas were trading and sharing technology (farming) since the Neolithic with little Genetic turnover in Neolithic Anatolia (e.g. Feldman et al 2019 as I cited earlier). The Reich abstract is indicating that even into the Bronze Age, there was still no genetic turnover in Anatolia.

You may be correct some early Steppe tribe came into Anatolia but you are going to have find DNA samples that support it. As of now, we have an Anatolian IE branch with no Steppe ancestry. Absent Steppe ancestry in the period when the Anatolian IE branch first developed, the best explanation to me is the language was dispersed into Anatolia from Armenia/Northern Iran. Now that then leads to another question, did PIE come from the Steppes into Armenia/Northern Iran bringing EHG admixture and from Armenia/Northern Iran the IE language was dispersed into Bronze age Anatolia without Steppe admixture. That is possible but is there EHG admixture into Armenia/Northern Iran around the time the Anatolian IE branch first developed circa 4200 BC according to Anthony. That needs to be documented and if so it would support your views, in my opinion.

So in my opinion, not having Steppe admixture into Anatolia at the time of the Anatolian IE branch first appeared could be reconciled to your views/theory, if DNA can document some EHG into the South Caucuses just before/concurrently with the development of the Anatolian IE branch. From there, a dispersal of the early IE that lead to the Anatolian Branch would not in my review require any Steppe admixture into Bronze Age Anatolia (circa 4200 BC) because as we have seen and as I noted before, the language could have been adopted in Anatolia via trade contacts with IE speaking peoples in the Southern Caucus region. Evidence already suggest that the Hittite language used writing methods they got from Mesopotamia so there clearly was interaction between Anatolia and the Northern Iran, Armenia ancient Iraq (Mesopotamia) not only in the Neolithic period but well into the Bronze age.

Hittites origin is known from being from modern Black sea Georgia area ...........they always spoke an indo-european language ...........when they moved south into Asia-Minor they firstly mixed with the Hatti people, who spoke a Non-Indo european language ..............these Hittites then moved west and SW and dominated the Luwian people ................the Ruling Hittites then spoke Hittite for much of their reign and their populace spoke Luwian until about 600BC
The western coast of Asia Minor was already Mycenaean influenced in the south and Thracian influenced in the north of this coast ..................my guess is that the Troad area spoke a branch of Thracian
 
I suspect the common blonde hair trait we know in these Baltic populations are earlier than the Indo-Europeans and were acquired via the absorption of the hunter-gather women in said region. That's not to say their facial structure was much different. These folks look Polish to me. Putin is just another common face in Russia, which is already quite multi-ethnic.

I think by the time of Bell Beaker, the men commonly looked something like Julius Caesar with the brachycephalic skull. (Unless someone can say these busts are fake) The issue is that southern Europe has been inherently multi-ethnic since the arrival of this so called "steppe" population. He's just a generic central European looking guy who was probably R1b.

I think Maciamo wrote years ago that some famous Romans looked pretty Central European but not North European or Slavic.
 
Do we know when the paper is out?
 
Well, this isn't confirmed but many scholars do believe Italic and Celtic have a substrate from a very early IE language, resembling Hittite or Tocharian. This would line up with Hittite coming from the Steppe and spreading not only into Anatolia, but also into Steppe enclaves in the Balkans and Hungary before being replaced by later waves of Bell Beakers, Proto-Greeks, Scythians, etc.

Linguistic scholars believe Celtic, Italic and Illyrian where one linguistic branch ...............they could not be from Hittite in origin and the Hittites started breaking up around circa 1000BC and where still in Asia Minor ..............and Hittites where completely gone by 800BC

 
Do we know when the paper is out?

This Friday three papers about the southern arc will be published, so we have a full weekend to analyze the results and data. I certainly know what I am going to do this weekend when I have free time.
 

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