David Reich Southern Arc Paper Abstract

[Er Monnezza]

PIE developed in Armenia and or Northern Iran it spread North to what is modern Georgia and CHG type people, who had adopted Farming moved North across the Caucus Mountains and traded with peoples from the Steppe, which they clearly did and they brought PIE to the Steppes.

So we don't know anything yet because we don't know what is in those new 731 samples. Again, I am not saying the Southern Arc is 100% correct but for Reich to strongly point to it suggest to me he has some genetic evidence to make such a statement.

Just at the time when an archaic form of PIE was spoken, Georgians probably already had additional Nautfian/PPNB that is missing in both Yamnaya and CHG. Darkveti-Meshoko samples are a good proxy for what Georgians were like at that time.

All the "ingredients" to make Yamnaya_RUS_Samara were already present in the Steppe/North Caucasus in 5000 BC.

PIE was spoken after 4500 BC, there is no need to bother South Caucasians to explain PIE.

Target: Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
Distance: 2.6983% / 0.02698337
60.2 RUS_Progress_EnG2004___BC_4138___Coverage_73.94%
12.4 BGR_MP_N:I1297___BC_5600___Coverage_10.31%
9.2 RUS_Progress_EnG2001___BC_4900___Coverage_75.05%
8.4 RUS_Khvalynsk_En:I0433___BC_4611___Coverage_36.95%
7.2 RUS_Khvalynsk_En:I0122___BC_4838___Coverage_48.69%
1.4 RUS_Khvalynsk_En:I0434___BC_4975___Coverage_5.32%
1.2 UKR_Meso:I5876___BC_6882___Coverage_40.60%

Target: Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
Distance: 2.9926% / 0.02992574
44.4 RUS_Progress_EnG2001___BC_4900___Coverage_75.05%
18.6 RUS_Khvalynsk_En:I0434___BC_4975___Coverage_5.32%
16.2 RUS_Khvalynsk_En:I0122___BC_4838___Coverage_48.69%
9.4 BGR_MP_N:I1297___BC_5600___Coverage_10.31%
6.8 RUS_Vonyuchka_En:VJ1001___BC_4280___Coverage_70.20%
3.0 UKR_N:I5892___BC_5119___Coverage_10.06%
1.0 RUS_Khvalynsk_En:I0433___BC_4611___Coverage_36.95%
0.6 UKR_Meso:I5876___BC_6882___Coverage_40.60%

Target: Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
Distance: 3.3413% / 0.03341335
74.4 RUS_Khvalynsk_En:I0434___BC_4975___Coverage_5.32%
11.6 BGR_MP_N:I1297___BC_5600___Coverage_10.31%
9.8 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728___Coverage_99.87%
4.2 UKR_N:I5892___BC_5119___Coverage_10.06%

 

[Riverman]

Just at the time when an archaic form of PIE was spoken, Georgians probably already had additional Nautfian/PPNB that is missing in both Yamnaya and CHG. Darkveti-Meshoko samples are a good proxy for what Georgians were like at that time.

All the "ingredients" to make Yamnaya_RUS_Samara were already present in the Steppe/North Caucasus in 5000 BC.

PIE was spoken after 4500 BC, there is no need to bother South Caucasians to explain PIE.

Target: Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
Distance: 2.6983% / 0.02698337
60.2 RUS_Progress_EnG2004___BC_4138___Coverage_73.94%
12.4 BGR_MP_N:I1297___BC_5600___Coverage_10.31%
9.2 RUS_Progress_EnG2001___BC_4900___Coverage_75.05%
8.4 RUS_Khvalynsk_En:I0433___BC_4611___Coverage_36.95%
7.2 RUS_Khvalynsk_En:I0122___BC_4838___Coverage_48.69%
1.4 RUS_Khvalynsk_En:I0434___BC_4975___Coverage_5.32%
1.2 UKR_Meso:I5876___BC_6882___Coverage_40.60%

Target: Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
Distance: 2.9926% / 0.02992574
44.4 RUS_Progress_EnG2001___BC_4900___Coverage_75.05%
18.6 RUS_Khvalynsk_En:I0434___BC_4975___Coverage_5.32%
16.2 RUS_Khvalynsk_En:I0122___BC_4838___Coverage_48.69%
9.4 BGR_MP_N:I1297___BC_5600___Coverage_10.31%
6.8 RUS_Vonyuchka_En:VJ1001___BC_4280___Coverage_70.20%
3.0 UKR_N:I5892___BC_5119___Coverage_10.06%
1.0 RUS_Khvalynsk_En:I0433___BC_4611___Coverage_36.95%
0.6 UKR_Meso:I5876___BC_6882___Coverage_40.60%

Target: Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
Distance: 3.3413% / 0.03341335
74.4 RUS_Khvalynsk_En:I0434___BC_4975___Coverage_5.32%
11.6 BGR_MP_N:I1297___BC_5600___Coverage_10.31%
9.8 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728___Coverage_99.87%
4.2 UKR_N:I5892___BC_5119___Coverage_10.06%

This being confirmed by archaeology as well. There was no significant influx to the North Pontic steppe. The only one which might stick out, is that which reached R. yar and the Lower Don cultural groups in the preceding period, before PIE took shape. And in this process, the local HG lineages did prevail and became the dominant ones. We know everything from the uniparentals anyway. The CHG admixture being mostly female driven.

 

[Moja]

PIE was spoken after 4500 BC, there is no need to bother South Caucasians to explain PIE.

We don't talk about an imaginary people, the earliest known IE people are Anatolians, like Hittites, Luwians and Palaic people, who had no Steppe anecstry.

 

[Hawk]

That's an incorrect map, Luwians were the western neighbors of Hittites, they lived on the shores of Western Turkey before the Greeks took over.

 

[Palermo Trapani]

This being confirmed by archaeology as well. There was no significant influx to the North Pontic steppe. The only one which might stick out, is that which reached R. yar and the Lower Don cultural groups in the preceding period, before PIE took shape. And in this process, the local HG lineages did prevail and became the dominant ones. We know everything from the uniparentals anyway. The CHG admixture being mostly female driven.

Is Proto Anatolian not the oldest PIE dialect/sub-branch yes or no. What is the oldest Pre-IE spoken in the steppes? Prof. Anthony's research, whose research many from the various amateur DNA/Archeology follow very closely puts Pre-Anatolian as the oldest about the time of 4200 BC which is consistent with what Er Monnezza stated (after 4500 BC). I would think the ancient Hittite language would fall into the Anatolian sub-branch/dialect correct. When did the Proto- Baltic-Slavic sub-branch of IE first appear. I think it is about 1500-1700 years after Er Monnezza's 4500 BC date thus it could be as later as 2800 BC. Pre-Italic/Germanic/Celtic maybe 3000-3200 BC. So Proto Baltic-Slavic/Germanic/Celtic/Italic are all much older than Anatolian sub-branch.

Hittite sub-branch thus is likely the most basal/archaic IE language and its closest relatives among the Proto-Anatolian branch. The ancient IE Anatolian languages (all extinct) and then Greek were the first one in written form. The Anatolian IE languages being the first in written form since the Summerians in Mesopotamia, who the bronze age Anatolians surely were trading with, were the first people to write down a language in circa 3300-3500 BC.

So from my perspective, nothing presented in post #1001 (Er Monnezza) and #1002 (Riverman) proves anything definitively one way or the other.

 

[eupator]

Just at the time when an archaic form of PIE was spoken, Georgians probably already had additional Nautfian/PPNB that is missing in both Yamnaya and CHG. Darkveti-Meshoko samples are a good proxy for what Georgians were like at that time.

I tried to tell you nicely but you know all these stuff you post with the %s breakdowns and such are the equivalent of gibberish, right?

They prove nothing.

 

[Er Monnezza]

We don't talk about an imaginary people, the earliest known IE people are Anatolians, like Hittites, Luwians and Palaic people, who had no Steppe anecstry.

There is little or no Steppe in Anatolia because Anatolian speakers were the first to migrate from the Steppe and it was not a mass migration, but rather an infiltration into lands already heavily populated by Hattians. It is no accident that the Anatolian languages are also considered the first to have split from the Proto-Indo-European language.

There is also an instance of migration from the Steppe in the haplogroup of this sample (ART038).

 

[Anfänger]

There is no consensus when PIE was spoken. There are hypotheses that it was even spoken as far back in time as 7000BC and that’s about the time when i think CHG/Iran ancestry entered the steppe. Anatolian being the most archaic language is the way to follow PIE. There is no steppe ancestry in Anatolia at least until the Iron Age. So I don‘t understand why it shouldn’t be possible that "Indo-Anatolian“ was spoken somewhere in the southern Caucasus.

 

[kingjohn]

in anthrogenica
bruzmi talked about 700 samples in this future paper southern Arc
we should remember that not all the 700 samples are males
if half of the samples for example: are females than it is not so much samples
as we think which can be informative on different y haplogroup presence at different periods

 

[Er Monnezza]

There is no consensus when PIE was spoken. There are hypotheses that it was even spoken as far back in time as 7000BC and that’s about the time when i think CHG/Iran ancestry entered the steppe.

Let's be serious though, this hypothesis does not make a lot of sense and the consensus is that PIE was spoken between 4500 and 3500/2500 BC.

Anatolian being the most archaic language is the way to follow PIE. There is no steppe ancestry in Anatolia at least until the Iron Age. So I don‘t understand why it shouldn’t be possible that "Indo-Anatolian“ was spoken somewhere in the southern Caucasus.

I actually think there is a possibility that Areni_C (first instance of Steppe admixutre from the Steppe to South of Caucasus) has something to do with "Indo-Anatolian", but I am not sure.

 

[mount123]

we should remember that not all the 700 samples are males
if half of the samples for example: are females than it is not so much samples
as we think which can be informative on different y haplogroup presence at different periods

Hence why I think many have set their hopes too high. For the Balkans papers like the upcoming Lalueza-Fox will be more interesting as from the last presentation there was a brief summary of male samples albeit not specific locations.

 

[kingjohn]

Hence why I think many have set their hopes too high. For the Balkans papers like the upcoming Lalueza-Fox will be more interesting as from the last presentation there was a brief summary of male samples albeit not specific locations.

agree
for europeans the serbian lalueza-fox papers should be more
interesting
than this southern Arc paper (which has more weight to middle eastern northern areas beside cyprus)

 

[Moja]

There is little or no Steppe in Anatolia because Anatolian speakers were the first to migrate from the Steppe and it was not a mass migration, but rather an infiltration into lands already heavily populated by Hattians. It is no accident that the Anatolian languages are also considered the first to have split from the Proto-Indo-European language.

There is also an instance of migration from the Steppe in the haplogroup of this sample (ART038).

As you read in the abstract: "Anatolia received hardly any genetic input from Europe or the Eurasian steppe from the Chalcolithic to the Iron Age", no miracle happened in Anatolia, some people migrated there and spread their culture, they were clearly not from the Eurasian steppe.

 

[Anfänger]

Let's be serious though, this hypothesis does not make a lot of sense and the consensus is that PIE was spoken between 4500 and 3500/2500 BC.

I am serious, Gray and Atkinson place PIE around 6700BC. Those who favour the steppe theory place it around 4500BC:

I actually think there is a possibility that Areni_C (first instance of Steppe admixutre from the Steppe to South of Caucasus) has something to do with "Indo-Anatolian", but I am not sure.

Areni_C ancestry wasn't found in central Anatolia, so I am skeptical. Let´s wait till Friday to see what Reich and colleagues have to say about "Indo-Anatolian" and the PIE Urheimat.

 

[torzio]

We don't talk about an imaginary people, the earliest known IE people are Anatolians, like Hittites, Luwians and Palaic people, who had no Steppe anecstry.

Palaic is from Pala people living on the black sea

The Pala seem to have been a relatively small group, and one about which virtually nothing is known. They settled the southern Black Sea coast of central Anatolia at an equally unknown point between about 2400-1800 BC. They had arrived in Anatolia as part of the South Indo-European group of at least three main divisions (see map link), which eventually emerged into history as the Palaic-speaking Pala, the Hittites, and the Luwians (with Palaic also being known as Palaumnili, this perhaps also being used to name the country of the Pala).

Who draws these out of place maps ??!


.............................
The Luwian near modern Lebanon is the last place Luwian was spoken circa 600BC

 

[Just_a_Common_Guy]

The genomes of people in Neolithic Spain (Basque territory) are very close to modern day Basque yet they lacked R1b, so I would say language has nothing to do with Y signature at all. (look at I1 in Germanics, yet we know they could not have been IE speaking originally) The people we know as "Basque" may also be IA migrants from southern France, so at the end of the day the story is likely a lot more complex than people realize. Unfortunately people, probably unintentionally have forgotten the role of women in these ancient cultures which was to rear children, and for men to basically raid, find mates, and feed the family. As chauvinistic as this sounds, this was how ancient societies worked for the most part. So it wouldn't surprise me if having a large number of female mates who were not native-IE speakers (ie: mediterranean mtDNA H1, H3 family) this could produce descendants who were not IE speakers.

Exactly, the role of women has been undervalued (we must not forget that they were the ones who raised the children) and if Reich is correct it could have been the women of the southern Caucasus regions who introduced the archaic PIE into the steppe. However, let's wait to see the papers.

 

[Just_a_Common_Guy]

This being confirmed by archaeology as well. There was no significant influx to the North Pontic steppe. The only one which might stick out, is that which reached R. yar and the Lower Don cultural groups in the preceding period, before PIE took shape. And in this process, the local HG lineages did prevail and became the dominant ones. We know everything from the uniparentals anyway. The CHG admixture being mostly female driven.

1 - The Mycenaeans had less than 20% steppe ancestry, yet they were Indo-Europeans.
2 - Couldn't it have been the CHG/Iran_N women who introduced the archaic PIE into the steppe? I can see that you give little value to women.

 

[Just_a_Common_Guy]

Let's be serious though, this hypothesis does not make a lot of sense and the consensus is that PIE was spoken between 4500 and 3500/2500 BC.



I actually think there is a possibility that Areni_C (first instance of Steppe admixutre from the Steppe to South of Caucasus) has something to do with "Indo-Anatolian", but I am not sure.

Quote from Reich himself: "The impermeability of Anatolia to exogenous migration contrasts with our finding that the Yamnaya had two distinct gene flows, both from West Asia, suggesting that the Indo-Anatolian language family originated in the eastern wing of the Southern Arc and that the steppe served only as a secondary staging area of Indo-European language dispersal."

"steppe served only as a secondary staging area of Indo-European language dispersal" means that the steppe was NOT the place of origin of the Indo-Anatolian language.

If you don't agree with Reich, then say it clearly once and for all and stop beating around the bush.

 

[kingjohn]

1 - The Mycenaeans had less than 20% steppe ancestry, yet they were Indo-Europeans.
2 - Couldn't it have been the CHG/Iran_N women who introduced the archaic PIE into the steppe? I can see that you give little value to women.

i am not riverman
but my cent on this is that most ancient cultures were patriarchal
even today in the middle east it is like that .
but maybe we will have a surprise in a few days

 

[Just_a_Common_Guy]

i am not riverman
but my cent on this is that most ancient cultures were patriarchal
even today in the middle east it is like that .
but maybe we will have a surprise in a few days

The current Basque language, the old Iberian (non-Indo-European) and Etruscan languages, how do you explain the existence of these languages in populations where the overwhelming majority of males have/had the R1b haplogroup?
I also expect a surprise. :awesome: