Comparing Ancient Greek populations to modern Greeks and Italians

[Idontknowwhatimdoing]

Paleo-Balkan? How about a big chunk of Neolithic farmer.

Edit: i didnt see you were not replying to me

 

[Idontknowwhatimdoing]

Serbians and ancient Greeks still overlap because they both might have Paleo-balkan in their ancestry.

They will NOT overlap. How much Paleo-Balkan did you think the ancient Greeks were? They had 30% South "Paleo-Balkan" and not 100%. Also the Paleo-Balkan ancestry in ancient Greeks is not the same as the Paleo-Balkan in Serbians.

The Paleo-Balkan ancestors of Serbians have 3 to 4 times more steppe ancestry than the ancient Greeks. Obviously that's a huge difference.

Target: Mycenaean_Greek_1350bc Distance: 2.2773% / 0.02277288
39.6	Anatolia_Isparta_EBA_2400bc
30.4	Anatolian_Neolithic_Farmer_Barcin_6400bc
30.0	GRC_Logkas_MBA

 

[eupator]

The official census is more accurate to the amount that reached and stayed in Greece because it is also reflective of things like the high, in the early years, emigration aswel as mortality, as a result of diseases and the inability of the Greek state to provide proper care to the refugees (things I’m sure you are aware of).

I wont discuss this anymore though because it paints the wrong picture.

The repatriations continued all the way to 1928 and were several revisions to official numbers until then. Get with the program, man, you are the one distorting the truth by clinging to initial numbers just from 1922.

Fst is irrelevant to the discussion. A sample from Thessaloniki clustering with Cretans wouldn't be surprising. The samples from Thessaloniki in the 2017 paper clearly don’t, I guess because they selected for pre 1923 ancestry. If GREEKALPOP clusters with Cretans than it is a different sample from the one used in the 2017 paper. This is not negotiable but clearly obvious. They are northeast of the Mycenaeans because of Slavic admixture and Cretans are the blue dots east of the Mycenaeans.


Again though I don’t see how this is relevant to the discussion because no arguments were made in that paper using them. The new paper has clear labels for the modern samples and has used them to model moderns.

I am going to try to explain this the best I can, because I give you the benefit of the doubt. On the PCA you linked there is 3 groups of Greek samples present in the Reich dataset by Lazaridis. Crete, Cyprus and the pink dots that are the GREEKALPOP samples from Thessaloniki. The FST table I linked show that these samples have various levels of West Asian admixture, hence they are pulled south near Crete. Otherwise (without that West Asian bit) they wouldn't cluster close to neither Crete nor the Myceneans. OK?

The Izmir samples clearly represent the bulk of the Greeks of Anatolia as most were situated in western Anatolia. The ones from Thrace and Constantinople were also numerous.

The point is there was nothing introduced in Macedonia that didn’t exist in the rest of Greece for a long time (the hypothetical average of the exchange population would be somewhere between the islands and the mainland with some admixture from the Pontic cluster). Since, as a result of people flocking to the cities, people from areas in Greece that received little settlement of refugees have also moved in Thessaloniki in large numbers. All in all not much has changed other than the island and mainland cluster probably coming closer together.

You don't need a lot of numbers of real West Asians, like Pontics and Central Anatolians who plot with South Caucasians or near them on those PCAs, to pull the rest south near to Crete. The Pontics were more numerous than enough to pull the rest of the mix of Balkanic-like and Peloponnesian-like mix of Macedonians + Smyrniotes to a profile that is closer to Crete, and henceforth to Myceneans.

Finally it is worth mentioning that profiles of groups like the Pontic Greeks and Cypriots are in all likelyhood, for the most part, alot older than people realise. When we get samples from the relevant areas we will test this assertion. I will refrain from expanding on the obvious, meaning that said groups and others have shared a language and culture for millenia, since i suspect that wont be particularly convincing to the usual subjects that seek to paint Greece and Anatolia as fundamentally different.

Regardless of their age, their profile is a South Caucasian one and the results of them participating in the mix of Macedonia+Thrace is the one I described above. I agree with the rest of your post.

But anyway I’m off, I wont be following this thread anymore. Good luck with your spite driven crusade Eupator.

Yes, too bad you don't have your anthrogenica mod buddies to just ban me this time as well. It would have been much easier I am sure. Tell the rest of your ag gang I am always up for discussion on boards you can't censor me.

 

[Constantine]

Pontic Greeks do differ but so what? Their profile is likely for the most part ancient anyway. But since I know that won’t convince the usual Balkan nationalists and since Eupator is so insistent on painting them as a foreign element, let me point out that they only really constituted about 18% of the population that was exchanged (this includes the ones from the Caucasus). Again i cant post links but you can check the official census for that.

Pundits on these types of forums like to make a ruckus about the Pontians, but I don't see what the big deal is. They don't have much that isn't in Greece already. In time their "profile" will simply disappear without a trace into the Greek gene pool. Like they were never there.

 

[eupator]

In time their "profile" will simply disappear without a trace into the Greek gene pool. Like they were never there.

Given the current trends of demographic collapse in the country, this is a grim reality for everyone in it not just Pontic genetics.

Culturally, Pontics enjoy a revival of numbers never seen before.

 

[Constantine]

Given the current trends of demographic collapse in the country, this is a grim reality for everyone in it not just Pontic genetics.

Culturally, Pontics enjoy a revival of numbers never seen before.

Yes, the demographic stuff I've been seeing is scary (and sad). But Pontics are probably not different enough and numerous enough to matter in these calculations of "ancient Greekness" of modern Greeks. People seem to like painting them as these unsavory, Greek-imposter ingredients in the stew.

In general, I think they are more ancient than people give them credit for and not these "Hellenized Georgians" as some like to say.

 

[blevins13]

I guess it must be the governments of those pushing them to..in the end ,what do they need a state for?..

Which one Greece or Albania?
One of the Albanian Muslims one for the Albanian Orthodox. They had Egypt as well for a while for the ones that like exotic things.
And all this because they could.




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[Bill7]

OK eupator and blevins we get your point there are no real Greek mainlanders left. Everyone is an arvanitovlach, a hellenised slav or a west Asian Greek from pontus and cappadocia, we went extinct and we are impostors pretending to be Greeks

 

[blevins13]

OK eupator and blevins we get your point there are no real Greek mainlanders left. Everyone is an arvanitovlach, a hellenised slav or a west Asian Greek from pontus and cappadocia, we went extinct and we are impostors pretending to be Greeks

No that was not my point. My post were related to a specific place called Morea.
You can find your origin in Middle Ages like I did? I did not see under your profile.

Follow my example:

The questions of identity and ethnicity depends on "which Y-DNA branch?" and "when?". In my case, if when = now, I'd say an Albanian in naturalization process to become US citizen. If when = 1800 on my paternal line, I'd say an Albanian Highlander from Laberia. If when = 1000 then a highlander from Malesia e Madhe. In the Roman era, somewhere in the western Balkans. If 6,000 years ago somewhere in Ukraine. And if when = 70,000 years ago or before, then my ancestors were African hunter-gatherers, like all of us.


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[Leopoldo Leone]

No that was not my point. My post were related to a specific place called Morea.
You can find your origin in Middle Ages like I did? I did not see under your profile.

Follow my example:

The questions of identity and ethnicity depends on "which Y-DNA branch?" and "when?". In my case, if when = now, I'd say an Albanian in naturalization process to become US citizen. If when = 1800 on my paternal line, I'd say an Albanian Highlander from Laberia. If when = 1000 then a highlander from Malesia e Madhe. In the Roman era, somewhere in the western Balkans. If 6,000 years ago somewhere in Ukraine. And if when = 70,000 years ago or before, then my ancestors were African hunter-gatherers, like all of us.


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This thread has already derailed and only "not very bright" individuals (to use an euphemism) keep on saying really dumb claims, but this "ethnicity depends on Y-DNA branch" is on another whole level.
Without a doubt the dumbest thing I've read on this forum.

 

[eupator]

This thread has already derailed and only "not very bright" individuals (to use an euphemism) keep on saying really dumb claims, but this "ethnicity depends on Y-DNA branch" is on another whole level.
Without a doubt the dumbest thing I've read on this forum.

It hasn't derailed at all, you just want to lock it because you're salty about the content, cry me a river, dude. And ad hominems are the last resort of the desperate, you are the only person in the thread attacking posters personally without addressing their points, I wonder if the leeway the moderation is showing to your vulgarity is indicative of them endorsing your language.

 

[blevins13]

This thread has already derailed and only "not very bright" individuals (to use an euphemism) keep on saying really dumb claims, but this "ethnicity depends on Y-DNA branch" is on another whole level.
Without a doubt the dumbest thing I've read on this forum.

Don’t forget “when” they are related. Take some time to absorb it.

I either follow my logic, which makes me Albanian. Or I have to believe that based on PCA, I am an Ancient North Epirot, which is the “Cradle” of Proto Greeks according to Yetos.

Let me know which one is right.

Not sure why I get so much heat from Italians.

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[matadworf]

Calculator Source:

1.Ancient_Greek(Mycenaean+Emporion):GRC_Mycenaean:Average,0.107847,0.1563915,-0.008108,-0.0646808,0.0216962,-0.0271222,-0.0005288,-0.0021345,0.00542,0.047336,0.005521,0.0169352,-0.012785,-0.0006195,-0.0163882,-0.0098118,0.0210245,0.0036108,0.0123188,-0.0039705,-0.0058648,0.0001858,-0.0065935,0.0011448,-0.0007185
1.Ancient_Greek(Mycenaean+Emporion):Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,0.118376,0.158423,-0.009051,-0.0670225,0.0252355,-0.027889,0.001645,-0.005077,0.0049085,0.042552,0.002842,0.01124,-0.016873,0.003578,-0.018526,-0.0157785,0.0035855,0.0003805,0.004588,-0.0126935,-0.008298,0.001546,0.001664,0.0071095,-0.008502

2.Levant_Sidon_1900BC:Levant_Sidon_MBA,0.0812696,0.1468454,-0.0613196,-0.0979336,-0.0105248,-0.0389334,-0.0047942,-0.0065998,0.0114534,0.0101686,0.0104904,-0.0097712,0.0215854,0.005505,-0.0075734,0.0065234,-0.0001562,-0.0011906,0.0015086,0.004252,0.0042674,0.007543,-0.0012572,0.0015906,-0.0005028

3.Anatolia/Caucasus(Pre_Turkic):Armenian,0.1034341,0.13861054,-0.056434355,-0.062990873,-0.027627409,-0.016951482,0.0038348,-0.0061151,-0.028213127,-0.0019019,0.0034337909,0.0020599545,-0.0026677727,0.0023908727,-0.0062209091,-0.00058341818,0.0025223182,0.0013912818,0.0017540818,-0.0018327,0.0017730455,0.0017749727,-0.0010857182,-0.0008993,0.0010700727

4.Paleo-Balkan+Slavic(Serbian),0.1273334,0.137229,0.040024,0.0148299,0.0314974,0.0045957,0.0048738,0.006672,-0.0011737,-7.9e-06,-0.0022946,-0.001251,0.0034128,0.012434,-0.0128875,-0.0008358,0.0040476,0.0005894,0.0043011,-0.0024468,-0.0083168,-0.0017151,0.0048925,0.000372,-0.0020097

Greek Targets:

Greek_Cypriot,0.1018718,0.1466806,-0.0343886,-0.0680319,-0.0024042,-0.0226075,-0.0005141,-0.0038798,-0.0029784,0.0168911,0.0034406,0.0013208,0.00013,0.0022106,-0.0131309,0.0010028,0.0056799,0.0009977,0.0037945,-0.0017352,-0.0019652,0.0018239,-0.0011324,0.0027337,-0.0007709
Greek_Achaea,0.1176476,0.1447334,0.008915,-0.0254524,0.0186618,-0.0085564,0.0029704,-7.38e-05,0.0028634,0.0153514,0.0010198,0.0014746,-0.0018315,0.006727,-0.0149347,-0.0008963,0.0074268,-0.0001216,0.0049677,-0.004047,-0.0064686,0.0013948,0.0035248,0.0019616,-0.0025866
Greek_Arcadia,0.1173137,0.1434605,0.0074167,-0.0243973,0.0207219,-0.011323,0.003337,-4.62e-05,-0.0002999,0.015235,0.0016347,0.0019181,-0.0021704,0.0085878,-0.0162594,-0.0033235,0.0038595,0.0007095,0.0070473,-0.0058945,-0.007337,-0.0005687,0.0013559,0.0001124,-0.0007663
Greek_Argolis,0.1198699,0.143634,0.0072359,-0.0265264,0.0190804,-0.0092382,0.0014982,-0.0011106,-0.0006774,0.0167202,0.0027098,0.0024354,-0.0035214,0.0072424,-0.0158029,-0.0028425,0.0068207,0.0013936,0.0059943,-0.0055808,-0.0083368,0.0005334,0.0015714,9.79e-05,-0.0029189
Greek_Central_Macedonia,0.1194473,0.142473,0.0157725,-0.016492,0.0213432,-0.0035601,0.0020321,1e-07,0.0008782,0.0120812,0.0009934,0.0018424,-0.0014429,0.0070025,-0.016957,-0.0005459,0.0098095,8.94e-05,0.0050649,-0.0035531,-0.0078319,0.0015057,0.0032408,0.0005529,-0.0007256
Greek_Corinthia,0.1185182,0.1451572,0.0064346,-0.0262841,0.0191573,-0.0088025,0.0018947,-0.0004902,0.0007668,0.0167543,0.001563,0.0023229,-0.0036701,0.0068037,-0.0156502,-0.0015994,0.0104959,0.0001266,0.0073848,-0.0052291,-0.0078612,-0.0003553,0.0024342,0.0030349,-0.0011226
Greek_Crete,0.1079839,0.145505,-0.0145229,-0.0451942,0.0067765,-0.015247,0.0022748,-0.0018484,-0.002579,0.0128804,0.0019698,0.0015826,-0.0017602,0.0039746,-0.0115539,-0.0023018,0.0046704,0.0009527,0.0038451,-0.0048911,-0.0044534,0.0009002,0.0006446,0.0014423,-0.001692
Greek_Deep_Mani,0.1106252,0.1485574,-0.011152,-0.0442049,0.0119434,-0.0166139,0.0008952,-0.000989,0.0015582,0.0186748,0.0019332,0.0022052,-0.0026263,0.0046202,-0.013501,-0.0039461,0.0044454,0.0015564,0.0034178,-0.0042818,-0.006447,0.0014544,0.0002465,0.0001434,-0.0008668
Greek_Dodecanese,0.1059692,0.1461347,-0.0244374,-0.0567511,0.0021851,-0.0183789,0.0038071,-0.0042228,-0.0028019,0.0166563,0.0048066,0.0020682,-0.0044895,-0.0005644,-0.0123505,-0.0012728,0.0032987,0.0050168,0.0058701,-0.0047523,-0.0043049,-0.0009647,0.000345,-0.0008676,-0.0034127
Greek_East_Taygetos,0.1150109,0.1460155,0.0047548,-0.0286206,0.0174345,-0.0104887,0.0022683,-0.0005318,0.0011383,0.013747,0.001059,0.0011339,-0.0021912,0.0070846,-0.0128167,-0.0036895,0.0039286,0.0010411,0.0034376,-0.0050459,-0.0053601,0.0018118,0.0031883,0.0015821,-0.0008902
Greek_Elis,0.1157677,0.1446283,0.0068195,-0.0252344,0.0180801,-0.0090639,0.0024088,0.0015192,0.000375,0.0140854,0.0017525,0.0022918,-0.0023414,0.0060496,-0.0155061,-0.0028507,0.0079481,0.001003,0.0067352,-0.0041583,-0.0060466,-7.21e-05,0.0019104,0.0012954,-0.0023351
Greek_Izmir,0.1146199,0.1443068,-0.0024135,-0.0345287,0.0149874,-0.0126059,0.0025145,-0.0015,-0.0022907,0.0150346,0.0018999,0.0031323,-0.003434,0.0018576,-0.0129749,0.0001989,0.0107827,-0.0001141,0.0059203,-0.0030515,-0.0060393,0.0019289,0.0002095,0.0023496,-0.0030056
Greek_Kos,0.1076261,0.1464618,-0.0220407,-0.0538692,0.0041031,-0.018252,0.0008617,-0.0036921,-0.0059994,0.0167861,0.0026524,0.0031472,-0.0039148,0.0009634,-0.0106012,0.0029906,0.0100107,0.0009432,0.0037151,-0.0036407,-0.0038128,0.0016762,-0.0001778,-0.0014059,-0.0021157
Greek_Laconia,0.1143004,0.1474811,0.0042943,-0.0296847,0.0171445,-0.0101211,0.002206,-0.000551,0.0011545,0.0148259,0.0030906,0.0009669,-0.0017647,0.0072185,-0.0141456,-0.0035201,0.0048915,0.0008909,0.0045211,-0.0064063,-0.0065208,0.0018549,0.0031527,0.0018075,-0.0020203
Greek_Macedonia,0.1215631,0.1428511,0.0134758,-0.0164945,0.0188958,-0.0048713,0.0029453,0.0028768,-4.09e-05,0.0121735,0.0019703,0.0012888,-0.0023093,0.0103219,-0.0153365,-0.0062493,0.0018428,0.0006587,0.0069805,-0.0052526,-0.0065136,0.0004122,0.0024156,-0.0010364,-0.0005986
Greek_Messenia,0.1178508,0.1445568,0.0081661,-0.024225,0.0192461,-0.00871,0.0032629,2.67e-05,-3.14e-05,0.0146351,0.0010367,0.0016601,-0.0035851,0.0075851,-0.0144855,-0.0053903,0.0042024,0.0015056,0.008359,-0.0051948,-0.0062102,0.0019832,0.0026357,0.0018445,-0.0011423
Greek_North_Tsakonia,0.1169849,0.1444308,0.0005449,-0.030362,0.0156609,-0.0114654,0.0022717,0.0006667,0.0007272,0.0148826,0.0026342,0.0021814,-0.0024117,0.0077988,-0.0137228,-0.0073511,0.0010867,0.0024773,0.0061592,-0.0057807,-0.004104,0.0038469,0.0009177,0.0011244,0.0016898
Greek_Peloponnese,0.117393,0.1445745,0.0071996,-0.0279395,0.0195001,-0.0102429,0.003429,8.4e-05,0.0019895,0.0140653,0.0040523,0.000872,-0.0016691,0.0049669,-0.0158114,0.0002169,0.0066851,0.0010192,0.0063877,-0.0044055,-0.0066928,0.0010004,0.003815,0.0010133,-0.0018506
Greek_South_Tsakonia,0.1163271,0.1441377,-0.0026399,-0.0354439,0.013705,-0.0118809,0.0016293,-0.0010462,-0.0001772,0.0167171,0.002858,0.0016585,-0.0039443,0.0036515,-0.0151555,-0.0001413,0.0093964,-0.0004814,0.004852,-0.0027095,-0.005091,0.0011789,0.0005342,-0.0001526,-0.0006147
Greek_Thessaly,0.119135,0.1452207,0.013702,-0.020026,0.0188753,-0.0051133,0.0005483,0.000769,0,0.01877,0.0026523,0.0040963,-0.0072843,0.0056883,-0.0090933,-0.0041987,0.0021297,-0.000549,0.0041483,-0.005336,-0.0069877,0.0012777,0.0035743,0.0014057,-0.003353
Greek_West_Taygetos,0.1175698,0.1442053,0.0094751,-0.0220582,0.0188753,-0.0080995,0.0044944,0.0011058,7.67e-05,0.0114581,0.0009607,0.0003308,-0.0003903,0.0069844,-0.0116832,-0.0025855,0.003955,0.0008921,0.0035772,-0.0040174,-0.0062598,4.62e-05,0.0016998,0.0020183,-0.0010777

So Paleo Balkan/Slav has higher Steppe in and out itself if you include the Steppe already in the BGR EBA so around 50% close to a modern day Serb.

Target: .Paleo-Balkan+Slavic(Serbian) Distance: 2.9011% / 0.02901057 | R5P | ADC: 0.25x RC
	71.4	BGR_EBA
	17.2	Yamnaya_RUS_Caucasus
	11.4	TUR_Barcin_N
	0.0	Baltic_LVA_HG
	0.0	TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N

The BGR EBA has fairly high Steppe as well and includes the EHG.

Target: BGR_EBA:I2165 Distance: 1.7086% / 0.01708639 | R5P | ADC: 0.25x RC
	43.6	TUR_Barcin_N
	32.0	Yamnaya_RUS_Caucasus
	14.2	Baltic_LVA_HG
	10.2	TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
	0.0	TUR_Titris_Hoyuk_EBA

It's interesting but the Empuries sample also has some Steppe possibly more than the Mycenean samples:

Target: Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215 Distance: 1.6556% / 0.01655637 | R5P | ADC: 0.25x RC
	52.6	TUR_Barcin_N
	17.0	Yamnaya_RUS_Caucasus
	16.8	TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
	8.8	TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA_low_res
	4.8	TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N

 

[Pashai Janinës]

OK eupator and blevins we get your point there are no real Greek mainlanders left. Everyone is an arvanitovlach, a hellenised slav or a west Asian Greek from pontus and cappadocia, we went extinct and we are impostors pretending to be Greeks

https://www.academia.edu/32315577/Fearful_History

 

[Leopoldo Leone]

It hasn't derailed at all, you just want to lock it because you're salty about the content, cry me a river, dude. And ad hominems are the last resort of the desperate, you are the only person in the thread attacking posters personally without addressing their points, I wonder if the leeway the moderation is showing to your vulgarity is indicative of them endorsing your language.

"Vulgarity" is the usage of vulgar words, not sneer remarks about extremely dumb claims, and I have held back from commenting every wild speculation that I have seen presented here; I have presented a more articulated opinion before, and the only response I got has been more of the intellectual cricket noise I had seen.

Since you want me "to address the point", do you earnestly think that Byzantine chroniclers support your wild speculations? How on earth do you conclude that since they reported that some were killed and some were relocated then there was a HUGE genetic turnover, since you lack critical contextual information before you can draw that conclusion, namely the percentage of the casualties with respect to the survivors and the percentage of the new settlers with respect to the total population. Ancient chroniclers reported in the best cases what they experienced first hand, and more often than not what they heard, and rarely did they make an effort to evaluate critically their sources. Even in the cases they reported what they saw, it would barely support your claims, since it is very implausible that chroniclers would go about gathering numbers about the demographics of a region before and after the carnage/relocation/whatever else they reported, but they would know about/see a notable happening and report it in impressionistic terms. If you were to read other middle age chroniclers you would end up believing that in Europe no one has ancestors residing in a region for longer than a couple of centuries.
True historical demographics research is very, very hard, and every specialist in this field would laugh at your reconstructions merely based on chroniclers' accounts (if you don't like sneer remarks then read: it doesn't at all satisfy the minimum levels of rigour, since when demographic censuses of some sort lack, then the historian uses at least one other surrogate to infer the demographics of a region), and especially they would laugh, and very loudly, at the absolute certainty you claim your reconstructions have: historians engage in researches that might last for years, gathering evidence that by far and large surpass your reference to Byzantine chroniclers in both quality and quantity, and yet present their statements with much more caution.
Here it is a word you show not to understand: caution; it isn't just a matter of false modesty, but it is an epistemological principle that you ought not to draw more than what it is reasonably plausible from your evidence. The only reasonably plausible conclusion you can draw from your chronicler's work is that a huge demographic turnover is compatible with their reports, not that it is "proven", a "historical truth" as you claimed.
As for this supposed huge demographic turnover, the evidence from genetics so far is that only Slavic gene flow has moderately impacted Greece, and everything else is just (wild, unfounded) speculation.
Your statements that I or others claim a "2000 year old unbroken continuity" are patent strawmen, since what we claim is that the majority of (European) Greeks' autosomal DNA comes from ancient Greeks, which is what the genetic evidence so far shows and the actual consensus. Mind you, it doesn't exclude that there were some other genetic inputs, which would be merely impossible, but it does mean that the bulk of modern Greeks genetics' is best explained by a mixing of ancient Greeks and slavs, which means that the purported shifts caused by Armenians, Levantines and Albanians or Serbs (and how would you tell apart Albanians' autosomal from Greeks'?), somehow all ending up looking like a much simpler ancient Greek+Slav (which is exactly what you would expect from history) mix, are ruled out.


Furthermore, for a person that claims to have a Ph.D. in Ethnography (and it is very easy to claim things on the internet), it is very peculiar to have "eastern rum" as his stated ethnicity when you grew up in Greece, and any ethnographer would very promptly laugh at the claim that ethnicity "depends on the Y-branch".

 

[eupator]

snip

Firstly, I am not endorsing poster blevin's opinion on HGs, I only focus on the points I make, so please stop with the strawmen and trying to put words in my mouth. You seem to somehow think you have some sort of moral high ground that allows you to use ad homs ad libitum against others.

Secondly, you still haven't provided any proof to the contrary, I am still waiting to see how these Byzantine chroniclers you and some other posters hold in low regard were wrong.

Instead, you just chose to write an incredibly long and emotional piece on what essentially constitutes your personal feelings on the matter, which is duly noted I guess.

And, since you are a foreigner to these lands, ethnographers in Greece get attacked all the time when they inevitable break the nationalists' narrative, we are used to such political violence, look no further than Karakasidou's work in Macedonia.

 

[Leopoldo Leone]

Don’t forget “when” they are related. Take some time to absorb it.

I either follow my logic, which makes me Albanian. Or I have to believe that based on PCA, I am an Ancient North Epirot, which is the “Cradle” of Proto Greeks according to Yetos.

Let me know which one is right.

Not sure why I get so much heat from Italians.

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You know you are an Albanian because your parents identified as Albanians as as far as you know your ancestors identified as Albanians; it isn't a "politically correct" definition of "ethnicity" that merely requires self-identification since it demands a tradition of consistent self-identification at least by part of the majority of your ancestors. Contrary to politically correct definitions it doesn't inflate "nationality" (though etymologically it ought to mean the same as ethnicity, but the usage confers them different meaning) with "ethnicity", and it is outside of a person's free choice since no one decides which ethnicity to be born into, yet "ethnicity" remains a cultural construct, a persistent cultural construct with remarkable stability (most of the times), and thanks to its historical persistence it is possible to link it to some general genetic profile, namely the average genetic profile that people that identified as X show, and this because unsurprisingly people that identify as belonging to the same group are more likely to mate, but it remains a cultural entity, since people don't go about taking DNA tests to know their ethnicity.

You said that ethnicity depends on Y-branch, which remains utterly comical even when you want to add the "when" restriction. Even when you had in mind the average genetic profile(s) linked to an ethnic group, the idea that it is the Y-branch that is important rather than the autosomal profile is utterly wrong.

 

[eupator]

it is very peculiar to have "eastern rum" as his stated ethnicity when you grew up in Greece

Oh, okay, I missed that gem the first time I read your post.

I assume you, as a foreigner, are all things expert when it comes to Greek people, you get to gatekeep what terminology we use or not because that one time you spoke to a couple of Greeks on the internet.

Grace us with your favor and tell us what are the acceptable self-identifications we can use as to avoid your judgement.

 

[blevins13]

You know you are an Albanian because your parents identified as Albanians as as far as you know your ancestors identified as Albanians; it isn't a "politically correct" definition of "ethnicity" that merely requires self-identification since it demands a tradition of consistent self-identification at least by part of the majority of your ancestors. Contrary to politically correct definitions it doesn't inflate "nationality" (though etymologically it ought to mean the same as ethnicity, but the usage confers them different meaning) with "ethnicity", and it is outside of a person's free choice since no one decides which ethnicity to be born into, yet "ethnicity" remains a cultural construct, a persistent cultural construct with remarkable stability (most of the times), and thanks to its historical persistence it is possible to link it to some general genetic profile, namely the average genetic profile that people that identified as X show, and this because unsurprisingly people that identify as belonging to the same group are more likely to mate, but it remains a cultural entity, since people don't go about taking DNA tests to know their ethnicity.

You said that ethnicity depends on Y-branch, which remains utterly comical even when you want to add the "when" restriction. Even when you had in mind the average genetic profile(s) linked to an ethnic group, the idea that it is the Y-branch that is important rather than the autosomal profile is utterly wrong.

You still do not get it, the same y-dna line that I have, now in Morea identify themself as Greeks, part of the Greek culture, but their ancestors identified as Albanians 1000 years ago. In Y-full you can identify when they split.
So yes it “depends” on Y-DNA so you can trace your line, and the “when” will tell you the culture, group of people, nationality, ethnicity your ancestor was part of.

Not sure what’s not clear here.


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[Er Monnezza]

As for this supposed huge demographic turnover, the evidence from genetics so far is that only Slavic gene flow has moderately impacted Greece, and everything else is just (wild, unfounded) speculation.
Your statements that I or others claim a "2000 year old unbroken continuity" are patent strawmen, since what we claim is that the majority of (European) Greeks' autosomal DNA comes from ancient Greeks, which is what the genetic evidence so far shows and the actual consensus. Mind you, it doesn't exclude that there were some other genetic inputs, which would be merely impossible, but it does mean that the bulk of modern Greeks genetics' is best explained by a mixing of ancient Greeks and slavs, which means that the purported shifts caused by Armenians, Levantines and Albanians or Serbs (and how would you tell apart Albanians' autosomal from Greeks'?), somehow all ending up looking like a much simpler ancient Greek+Slav (which is exactly what you would expect from history) mix, are ruled out.

But when you say "Ancient Greeks," who exactly are you referring to? The Mycenaeans?

Greeks and Balkanians are not simply LBA/IA locals + Medieval Slavs. The picture is more complicated than that.

Taking the Bulgarians as an example, they have virtually the same amount of CHG and Iran_N as their Iron Age counterparts (assuming the BGR_IA singleton is a good proxy, which it may not be) while having at the same time a heavy recent contribution from the north. This means that indeed there has been a recent contribution from the east over the past 2,500 years.

All the samples used in the model below pre-date 7000 BC.

Sample	TUR	UKR	IRN	GEO
Bulgarian	55,2	25,8	9,6	9,4
BGR_IA	75,6	7,4	8,8	8,2