Idontknowwhatimdoing
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- Ethnic group
- Greek Cypriot
Paleo-Balkan? How about a big chunk of Neolithic farmer.
Edit: i didnt see you were not replying to me
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Paleo-Balkan? How about a big chunk of Neolithic farmer.
Serbians and ancient Greeks still overlap because they both might have Paleo-balkan in their ancestry.
Target: Mycenaean_Greek_1350bc Distance: 2.2773% / 0.02277288 | |
---|---|
39.6 | Anatolia_Isparta_EBA_2400bc |
30.4 | Anatolian_Neolithic_Farmer_Barcin_6400bc |
30.0 | GRC_Logkas_MBA |
The official census is more accurate to the amount that reached and stayed in Greece because it is also reflective of things like the high, in the early years, emigration aswel as mortality, as a result of diseases and the inability of the Greek state to provide proper care to the refugees (things I’m sure you are aware of).
I wont discuss this anymore though because it paints the wrong picture.
Fst is irrelevant to the discussion. A sample from Thessaloniki clustering with Cretans wouldn't be surprising. The samples from Thessaloniki in the 2017 paper clearly don’t, I guess because they selected for pre 1923 ancestry. If GREEKALPOP clusters with Cretans than it is a different sample from the one used in the 2017 paper. This is not negotiable but clearly obvious. They are northeast of the Mycenaeans because of Slavic admixture and Cretans are the blue dots east of the Mycenaeans.
Again though I don’t see how this is relevant to the discussion because no arguments were made in that paper using them. The new paper has clear labels for the modern samples and has used them to model moderns.
The Izmir samples clearly represent the bulk of the Greeks of Anatolia as most were situated in western Anatolia. The ones from Thrace and Constantinople were also numerous.
The point is there was nothing introduced in Macedonia that didn’t exist in the rest of Greece for a long time (the hypothetical average of the exchange population would be somewhere between the islands and the mainland with some admixture from the Pontic cluster). Since, as a result of people flocking to the cities, people from areas in Greece that received little settlement of refugees have also moved in Thessaloniki in large numbers. All in all not much has changed other than the island and mainland cluster probably coming closer together.
Finally it is worth mentioning that profiles of groups like the Pontic Greeks and Cypriots are in all likelyhood, for the most part, alot older than people realise. When we get samples from the relevant areas we will test this assertion. I will refrain from expanding on the obvious, meaning that said groups and others have shared a language and culture for millenia, since i suspect that wont be particularly convincing to the usual subjects that seek to paint Greece and Anatolia as fundamentally different.
But anyway I’m off, I wont be following this thread anymore. Good luck with your spite driven crusade Eupator.
Pontic Greeks do differ but so what? Their profile is likely for the most part ancient anyway. But since I know that won’t convince the usual Balkan nationalists and since Eupator is so insistent on painting them as a foreign element, let me point out that they only really constituted about 18% of the population that was exchanged (this includes the ones from the Caucasus). Again i cant post links but you can check the official census for that.
In time their "profile" will simply disappear without a trace into the Greek gene pool. Like they were never there.
Given the current trends of demographic collapse in the country, this is a grim reality for everyone in it not just Pontic genetics.
Culturally, Pontics enjoy a revival of numbers never seen before.
I guess it must be the governments of those pushing them to..in the end ,what do they need a state for?..
OK eupator and blevins we get your point there are no real Greek mainlanders left. Everyone is an arvanitovlach, a hellenised slav or a west Asian Greek from pontus and cappadocia, we went extinct and we are impostors pretending to be Greeks
No that was not my point. My post were related to a specific place called Morea.
You can find your origin in Middle Ages like I did? I did not see under your profile.
Follow my example:
The questions of identity and ethnicity depends on "which Y-DNA branch?" and "when?". In my case, if when = now, I'd say an Albanian in naturalization process to become US citizen. If when = 1800 on my paternal line, I'd say an Albanian Highlander from Laberia. If when = 1000 then a highlander from Malesia e Madhe. In the Roman era, somewhere in the western Balkans. If 6,000 years ago somewhere in Ukraine. And if when = 70,000 years ago or before, then my ancestors were African hunter-gatherers, like all of us.
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This thread has already derailed and only "not very bright" individuals (to use an euphemism) keep on saying really dumb claims, but this "ethnicity depends on Y-DNA branch" is on another whole level.
Without a doubt the dumbest thing I've read on this forum.
This thread has already derailed and only "not very bright" individuals (to use an euphemism) keep on saying really dumb claims, but this "ethnicity depends on Y-DNA branch" is on another whole level.
Without a doubt the dumbest thing I've read on this forum.
Calculator Source:
Code:1.Ancient_Greek(Mycenaean+Emporion):GRC_Mycenaean:Average,0.107847,0.1563915,-0.008108,-0.0646808,0.0216962,-0.0271222,-0.0005288,-0.0021345,0.00542,0.047336,0.005521,0.0169352,-0.012785,-0.0006195,-0.0163882,-0.0098118,0.0210245,0.0036108,0.0123188,-0.0039705,-0.0058648,0.0001858,-0.0065935,0.0011448,-0.0007185 1.Ancient_Greek(Mycenaean+Emporion):Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,0.118376,0.158423,-0.009051,-0.0670225,0.0252355,-0.027889,0.001645,-0.005077,0.0049085,0.042552,0.002842,0.01124,-0.016873,0.003578,-0.018526,-0.0157785,0.0035855,0.0003805,0.004588,-0.0126935,-0.008298,0.001546,0.001664,0.0071095,-0.008502 2.Levant_Sidon_1900BC:Levant_Sidon_MBA,0.0812696,0.1468454,-0.0613196,-0.0979336,-0.0105248,-0.0389334,-0.0047942,-0.0065998,0.0114534,0.0101686,0.0104904,-0.0097712,0.0215854,0.005505,-0.0075734,0.0065234,-0.0001562,-0.0011906,0.0015086,0.004252,0.0042674,0.007543,-0.0012572,0.0015906,-0.0005028 3.Anatolia/Caucasus(Pre_Turkic):Armenian,0.1034341,0.13861054,-0.056434355,-0.062990873,-0.027627409,-0.016951482,0.0038348,-0.0061151,-0.028213127,-0.0019019,0.0034337909,0.0020599545,-0.0026677727,0.0023908727,-0.0062209091,-0.00058341818,0.0025223182,0.0013912818,0.0017540818,-0.0018327,0.0017730455,0.0017749727,-0.0010857182,-0.0008993,0.0010700727 4.Paleo-Balkan+Slavic(Serbian),0.1273334,0.137229,0.040024,0.0148299,0.0314974,0.0045957,0.0048738,0.006672,-0.0011737,-7.9e-06,-0.0022946,-0.001251,0.0034128,0.012434,-0.0128875,-0.0008358,0.0040476,0.0005894,0.0043011,-0.0024468,-0.0083168,-0.0017151,0.0048925,0.000372,-0.0020097
Greek Targets:
Code:Greek_Cypriot,0.1018718,0.1466806,-0.0343886,-0.0680319,-0.0024042,-0.0226075,-0.0005141,-0.0038798,-0.0029784,0.0168911,0.0034406,0.0013208,0.00013,0.0022106,-0.0131309,0.0010028,0.0056799,0.0009977,0.0037945,-0.0017352,-0.0019652,0.0018239,-0.0011324,0.0027337,-0.0007709 Greek_Achaea,0.1176476,0.1447334,0.008915,-0.0254524,0.0186618,-0.0085564,0.0029704,-7.38e-05,0.0028634,0.0153514,0.0010198,0.0014746,-0.0018315,0.006727,-0.0149347,-0.0008963,0.0074268,-0.0001216,0.0049677,-0.004047,-0.0064686,0.0013948,0.0035248,0.0019616,-0.0025866 Greek_Arcadia,0.1173137,0.1434605,0.0074167,-0.0243973,0.0207219,-0.011323,0.003337,-4.62e-05,-0.0002999,0.015235,0.0016347,0.0019181,-0.0021704,0.0085878,-0.0162594,-0.0033235,0.0038595,0.0007095,0.0070473,-0.0058945,-0.007337,-0.0005687,0.0013559,0.0001124,-0.0007663 Greek_Argolis,0.1198699,0.143634,0.0072359,-0.0265264,0.0190804,-0.0092382,0.0014982,-0.0011106,-0.0006774,0.0167202,0.0027098,0.0024354,-0.0035214,0.0072424,-0.0158029,-0.0028425,0.0068207,0.0013936,0.0059943,-0.0055808,-0.0083368,0.0005334,0.0015714,9.79e-05,-0.0029189 Greek_Central_Macedonia,0.1194473,0.142473,0.0157725,-0.016492,0.0213432,-0.0035601,0.0020321,1e-07,0.0008782,0.0120812,0.0009934,0.0018424,-0.0014429,0.0070025,-0.016957,-0.0005459,0.0098095,8.94e-05,0.0050649,-0.0035531,-0.0078319,0.0015057,0.0032408,0.0005529,-0.0007256 Greek_Corinthia,0.1185182,0.1451572,0.0064346,-0.0262841,0.0191573,-0.0088025,0.0018947,-0.0004902,0.0007668,0.0167543,0.001563,0.0023229,-0.0036701,0.0068037,-0.0156502,-0.0015994,0.0104959,0.0001266,0.0073848,-0.0052291,-0.0078612,-0.0003553,0.0024342,0.0030349,-0.0011226 Greek_Crete,0.1079839,0.145505,-0.0145229,-0.0451942,0.0067765,-0.015247,0.0022748,-0.0018484,-0.002579,0.0128804,0.0019698,0.0015826,-0.0017602,0.0039746,-0.0115539,-0.0023018,0.0046704,0.0009527,0.0038451,-0.0048911,-0.0044534,0.0009002,0.0006446,0.0014423,-0.001692 Greek_Deep_Mani,0.1106252,0.1485574,-0.011152,-0.0442049,0.0119434,-0.0166139,0.0008952,-0.000989,0.0015582,0.0186748,0.0019332,0.0022052,-0.0026263,0.0046202,-0.013501,-0.0039461,0.0044454,0.0015564,0.0034178,-0.0042818,-0.006447,0.0014544,0.0002465,0.0001434,-0.0008668 Greek_Dodecanese,0.1059692,0.1461347,-0.0244374,-0.0567511,0.0021851,-0.0183789,0.0038071,-0.0042228,-0.0028019,0.0166563,0.0048066,0.0020682,-0.0044895,-0.0005644,-0.0123505,-0.0012728,0.0032987,0.0050168,0.0058701,-0.0047523,-0.0043049,-0.0009647,0.000345,-0.0008676,-0.0034127 Greek_East_Taygetos,0.1150109,0.1460155,0.0047548,-0.0286206,0.0174345,-0.0104887,0.0022683,-0.0005318,0.0011383,0.013747,0.001059,0.0011339,-0.0021912,0.0070846,-0.0128167,-0.0036895,0.0039286,0.0010411,0.0034376,-0.0050459,-0.0053601,0.0018118,0.0031883,0.0015821,-0.0008902 Greek_Elis,0.1157677,0.1446283,0.0068195,-0.0252344,0.0180801,-0.0090639,0.0024088,0.0015192,0.000375,0.0140854,0.0017525,0.0022918,-0.0023414,0.0060496,-0.0155061,-0.0028507,0.0079481,0.001003,0.0067352,-0.0041583,-0.0060466,-7.21e-05,0.0019104,0.0012954,-0.0023351 Greek_Izmir,0.1146199,0.1443068,-0.0024135,-0.0345287,0.0149874,-0.0126059,0.0025145,-0.0015,-0.0022907,0.0150346,0.0018999,0.0031323,-0.003434,0.0018576,-0.0129749,0.0001989,0.0107827,-0.0001141,0.0059203,-0.0030515,-0.0060393,0.0019289,0.0002095,0.0023496,-0.0030056 Greek_Kos,0.1076261,0.1464618,-0.0220407,-0.0538692,0.0041031,-0.018252,0.0008617,-0.0036921,-0.0059994,0.0167861,0.0026524,0.0031472,-0.0039148,0.0009634,-0.0106012,0.0029906,0.0100107,0.0009432,0.0037151,-0.0036407,-0.0038128,0.0016762,-0.0001778,-0.0014059,-0.0021157 Greek_Laconia,0.1143004,0.1474811,0.0042943,-0.0296847,0.0171445,-0.0101211,0.002206,-0.000551,0.0011545,0.0148259,0.0030906,0.0009669,-0.0017647,0.0072185,-0.0141456,-0.0035201,0.0048915,0.0008909,0.0045211,-0.0064063,-0.0065208,0.0018549,0.0031527,0.0018075,-0.0020203 Greek_Macedonia,0.1215631,0.1428511,0.0134758,-0.0164945,0.0188958,-0.0048713,0.0029453,0.0028768,-4.09e-05,0.0121735,0.0019703,0.0012888,-0.0023093,0.0103219,-0.0153365,-0.0062493,0.0018428,0.0006587,0.0069805,-0.0052526,-0.0065136,0.0004122,0.0024156,-0.0010364,-0.0005986 Greek_Messenia,0.1178508,0.1445568,0.0081661,-0.024225,0.0192461,-0.00871,0.0032629,2.67e-05,-3.14e-05,0.0146351,0.0010367,0.0016601,-0.0035851,0.0075851,-0.0144855,-0.0053903,0.0042024,0.0015056,0.008359,-0.0051948,-0.0062102,0.0019832,0.0026357,0.0018445,-0.0011423 Greek_North_Tsakonia,0.1169849,0.1444308,0.0005449,-0.030362,0.0156609,-0.0114654,0.0022717,0.0006667,0.0007272,0.0148826,0.0026342,0.0021814,-0.0024117,0.0077988,-0.0137228,-0.0073511,0.0010867,0.0024773,0.0061592,-0.0057807,-0.004104,0.0038469,0.0009177,0.0011244,0.0016898 Greek_Peloponnese,0.117393,0.1445745,0.0071996,-0.0279395,0.0195001,-0.0102429,0.003429,8.4e-05,0.0019895,0.0140653,0.0040523,0.000872,-0.0016691,0.0049669,-0.0158114,0.0002169,0.0066851,0.0010192,0.0063877,-0.0044055,-0.0066928,0.0010004,0.003815,0.0010133,-0.0018506 Greek_South_Tsakonia,0.1163271,0.1441377,-0.0026399,-0.0354439,0.013705,-0.0118809,0.0016293,-0.0010462,-0.0001772,0.0167171,0.002858,0.0016585,-0.0039443,0.0036515,-0.0151555,-0.0001413,0.0093964,-0.0004814,0.004852,-0.0027095,-0.005091,0.0011789,0.0005342,-0.0001526,-0.0006147 Greek_Thessaly,0.119135,0.1452207,0.013702,-0.020026,0.0188753,-0.0051133,0.0005483,0.000769,0,0.01877,0.0026523,0.0040963,-0.0072843,0.0056883,-0.0090933,-0.0041987,0.0021297,-0.000549,0.0041483,-0.005336,-0.0069877,0.0012777,0.0035743,0.0014057,-0.003353 Greek_West_Taygetos,0.1175698,0.1442053,0.0094751,-0.0220582,0.0188753,-0.0080995,0.0044944,0.0011058,7.67e-05,0.0114581,0.0009607,0.0003308,-0.0003903,0.0069844,-0.0116832,-0.0025855,0.003955,0.0008921,0.0035772,-0.0040174,-0.0062598,4.62e-05,0.0016998,0.0020183,-0.0010777
Target: .Paleo-Balkan+Slavic(Serbian) Distance: 2.9011% / 0.02901057 | R5P | ADC: 0.25x RC | ||
---|---|---|
71.4 | BGR_EBA | |
17.2 | Yamnaya_RUS_Caucasus | |
11.4 | TUR_Barcin_N | |
0.0 | Baltic_LVA_HG | |
0.0 | TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N |
Target: BGR_EBA:I2165 Distance: 1.7086% / 0.01708639 | R5P | ADC: 0.25x RC | ||
---|---|---|
43.6 | TUR_Barcin_N | |
32.0 | Yamnaya_RUS_Caucasus | |
14.2 | Baltic_LVA_HG | |
10.2 | TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N | |
0.0 | TUR_Titris_Hoyuk_EBA |
Target: Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215 Distance: 1.6556% / 0.01655637 | R5P | ADC: 0.25x RC | ||
---|---|---|
52.6 | TUR_Barcin_N | |
17.0 | Yamnaya_RUS_Caucasus | |
16.8 | TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA | |
8.8 | TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA_low_res | |
4.8 | TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N |
https://www.academia.edu/32315577/Fearful_HistoryOK eupator and blevins we get your point there are no real Greek mainlanders left. Everyone is an arvanitovlach, a hellenised slav or a west Asian Greek from pontus and cappadocia, we went extinct and we are impostors pretending to be Greeks
It hasn't derailed at all, you just want to lock it because you're salty about the content, cry me a river, dude. And ad hominems are the last resort of the desperate, you are the only person in the thread attacking posters personally without addressing their points, I wonder if the leeway the moderation is showing to your vulgarity is indicative of them endorsing your language.
snip
Don’t forget “when” they are related. Take some time to absorb it.
I either follow my logic, which makes me Albanian. Or I have to believe that based on PCA, I am an Ancient North Epirot, which is the “Cradle” of Proto Greeks according to Yetos.
Let me know which one is right.
Not sure why I get so much heat from Italians.
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it is very peculiar to have "eastern rum" as his stated ethnicity when you grew up in Greece
You know you are an Albanian because your parents identified as Albanians as as far as you know your ancestors identified as Albanians; it isn't a "politically correct" definition of "ethnicity" that merely requires self-identification since it demands a tradition of consistent self-identification at least by part of the majority of your ancestors. Contrary to politically correct definitions it doesn't inflate "nationality" (though etymologically it ought to mean the same as ethnicity, but the usage confers them different meaning) with "ethnicity", and it is outside of a person's free choice since no one decides which ethnicity to be born into, yet "ethnicity" remains a cultural construct, a persistent cultural construct with remarkable stability (most of the times), and thanks to its historical persistence it is possible to link it to some general genetic profile, namely the average genetic profile that people that identified as X show, and this because unsurprisingly people that identify as belonging to the same group are more likely to mate, but it remains a cultural entity, since people don't go about taking DNA tests to know their ethnicity.
You said that ethnicity depends on Y-branch, which remains utterly comical even when you want to add the "when" restriction. Even when you had in mind the average genetic profile(s) linked to an ethnic group, the idea that it is the Y-branch that is important rather than the autosomal profile is utterly wrong.
As for this supposed huge demographic turnover, the evidence from genetics so far is that only Slavic gene flow has moderately impacted Greece, and everything else is just (wild, unfounded) speculation.
Your statements that I or others claim a "2000 year old unbroken continuity" are patent strawmen, since what we claim is that the majority of (European) Greeks' autosomal DNA comes from ancient Greeks, which is what the genetic evidence so far shows and the actual consensus. Mind you, it doesn't exclude that there were some other genetic inputs, which would be merely impossible, but it does mean that the bulk of modern Greeks genetics' is best explained by a mixing of ancient Greeks and slavs, which means that the purported shifts caused by Armenians, Levantines and Albanians or Serbs (and how would you tell apart Albanians' autosomal from Greeks'?), somehow all ending up looking like a much simpler ancient Greek+Slav (which is exactly what you would expect from history) mix, are ruled out.
Sample | TUR | UKR | IRN | GEO |
Bulgarian | 55,2 | 25,8 | 9,6 | 9,4 |
BGR_IA | 75,6 | 7,4 | 8,8 | 8,2 |
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