The diverse genetic origins of a Classical period Greek army

PaleoRevenge · Nov 6, 2022

The following Himera samples seem to be Classical Greek based on their G25s profiles:

Code:

  [TABLE]
  [TR]
   [TD="width: 594"]ITA_Sicily_Himera_409BCE:I17866_J-Z35779[/TD]
  [/TR]
  [TR]
   [TD]ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7217_L-L595[/TD]
  [/TR]
  [TR]
   [TD]ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7219_G-PF3346[/TD]
  [/TR]
  [TR]
   [TD]ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7221_G-Z42565[/TD]
  [/TR]
  [TR]
   [TD]ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I10945_J-Y151557[/TD]
  [/TR]
  [TR]
   [TD]ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I10952_J-Z7706[/TD]
  [/TR]
 [/TABLE]

I made a average of their G25s, as a proxy for classical Greeks.

Code:

[TABLE]
[TR]
   [TD="class: xl65, width: 64"]Classical_Greek_Himera_6th_BCE_1:Average,0.119134833333333,0.161807666666667,-0.00804533333333333,-0.0634156666666667,0.0238505,-0.0244958333333333,-0.00317266666666667,-0.00446133333333333,0.00657883333333333,0.0417321666666667,0.0026525,0.0105905,-0.019202,-0.0009175,-0.0167615,-0.0124413333333333,0.00986566666666667,-0.0004855,0.00689233333333333,-0.00862916666666667,-0.0100863333333333,0.007048,-0.000534166666666667,0.00576366666666667,-0.00275416666666667
[/TD]
 [/TR]
[/TABLE]

Angela · Nov 6, 2022

You're putting the cart before the horse. If you want "certainty", first you need Classical Era Greek samples from Greece and then you can compare them to the Himera samples.

However just for the fun of it, I'd like to run my husband against the samples. Can you post all their coordinates?

PaleoRevenge · Nov 6, 2022

These are the individual coordinates:

Code:

  [TABLE]
  [TR]
   [TD="class: xl65, width: 64"]ITA_Sicily_Himera_409BCE:I17866_J-Z35779,0.121791,0.165531,-0.014331,-0.06783,0.023081,-0.022032,-0.00658,-0.002538,0.015339,0.03991,-0.000974,0.014237,-0.020515,0.005643,-0.012486,-0.004508,0.015385,-0.000507,0.008422,-0.001376,-0.005116,0.004822,0.001602,0.000964,-0.002275[/TD]
  [/TR]
  [TR]
   [TD="class: xl65"]ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7217_L-L595,0.121791,0.159438,-0.010182,-0.064923,0.03139,-0.026216,-0.00047,-0.008077,0.00634,0.047199,0.007145,0.010191,-0.020218,-0.003578,-0.017779,-0.012198,0.003651,0.000127,0.004525,-0.021385,-0.00836,0.006059,-0.003451,0.018677,0.003353[/TD]
  [/TR]
  [TR]
   [TD="class: xl65"]ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7219_G-PF3346,0.121791,0.168578,-0.001886,-0.068476,0.023697,-0.024821,0.005405,0.000692,0.005727,0.046835,0.002923,0.010341,-0.026759,-0.007707,-0.02253,-0.016176,0.019166,-0.00038,0.008547,0.001626,-0.013351,0.002102,-0.000246,-0.003976,-0.004431[/TD]
  [/TR]
  [TR]
   [TD="class: xl65"]ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7221_G-Z42565,0.120652,0.160454,-0.010559,-0.064923,0.016003,-0.029562,-0.00235,-0.005307,-0.003681,0.033896,0.003573,0.005845,-0.012785,-0.003991,-0.014386,-0.009679,0.012517,0.001014,0.003394,-0.001501,-0.010981,0.007666,-0.004807,0.003735,-0.004071[/TD]
  [/TR]
  [TR]
   [TD="class: xl65"]ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I10945_J-Y151557,0.114961,0.15436,-0.011314,-0.050065,0.016926,-0.026216,-0.00376,-0.003231,0.00859,0.039181,-0.000812,0.014387,-0.021556,0.002064,-0.018594,-0.018828,0.01356,-0.002787,0.014581,-0.017633,-0.019341,0.011376,0.001725,0.010965,-0.005269[/TD]
  [/TR]
  [TR]
   [TD="class: xl65"]ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I10952_J-Z7706,0.113823,0.162485,0,-0.064277,0.032006,-0.018128,-0.011281,-0.008307,0.007158,0.043372,0.00406,0.008542,-0.013379,0.002064,-0.014794,-0.013259,-0.005085,-0.00038,0.001885,-0.011506,-0.003369,0.010263,0.001972,0.004217,-0.003832[/TD]
  [/TR]
 [/TABLE]

I tried them on modern Greek averages. They seem right.

Jovialis · Nov 6, 2022

kingjohn said:
This should be interesting
https://submissions.e-a-a.org/eaa2021/repository/preview.php?Abstract=2323

https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB56216

This is one of those things I'll be checking on every day until it is released.

Angela · Nov 6, 2022

PaleoRevenge said:

These are the individual coordinates:

Code:

  [TABLE]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl65"]ITA_Sicily_Himera_409BCE:I17866_J-Z35779,0.121791,0.165531,-0.014331,-0.06783,0.023081,-0.022032,-0.00658,-0.002538,0.015339,0.03991,-0.000974,0.014237,-0.020515,0.005643,-0.012486,-0.004508,0.015385,-0.000507,0.008422,-0.001376,-0.005116,0.004822,0.001602,0.000964,-0.002275[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl65"]ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7217_L-L595,0.121791,0.159438,-0.010182,-0.064923,0.03139,-0.026216,-0.00047,-0.008077,0.00634,0.047199,0.007145,0.010191,-0.020218,-0.003578,-0.017779,-0.012198,0.003651,0.000127,0.004525,-0.021385,-0.00836,0.006059,-0.003451,0.018677,0.003353[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl65"]ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7219_G-PF3346,0.121791,0.168578,-0.001886,-0.068476,0.023697,-0.024821,0.005405,0.000692,0.005727,0.046835,0.002923,0.010341,-0.026759,-0.007707,-0.02253,-0.016176,0.019166,-0.00038,0.008547,0.001626,-0.013351,0.002102,-0.000246,-0.003976,-0.004431[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl65"]ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7221_G-Z42565,0.120652,0.160454,-0.010559,-0.064923,0.016003,-0.029562,-0.00235,-0.005307,-0.003681,0.033896,0.003573,0.005845,-0.012785,-0.003991,-0.014386,-0.009679,0.012517,0.001014,0.003394,-0.001501,-0.010981,0.007666,-0.004807,0.003735,-0.004071[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl65"]ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I10945_J-Y151557,0.114961,0.15436,-0.011314,-0.050065,0.016926,-0.026216,-0.00376,-0.003231,0.00859,0.039181,-0.000812,0.014387,-0.021556,0.002064,-0.018594,-0.018828,0.01356,-0.002787,0.014581,-0.017633,-0.019341,0.011376,0.001725,0.010965,-0.005269[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl65"]ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I10952_J-Z7706,0.113823,0.162485,0,-0.064277,0.032006,-0.018128,-0.011281,-0.008307,0.007158,0.043372,0.00406,0.008542,-0.013379,0.002064,-0.014794,-0.013259,-0.005085,-0.00038,0.001885,-0.011506,-0.003369,0.010263,0.001972,0.004217,-0.003832[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

I tried them on modern Greek averages. They seem right.

Excuse me? How can you know that? Modern Greeks are not Classical Greeks.

Can you post some results from comparisons with academic Greek samples?

PaleoRevenge · Nov 7, 2022

I based it on this comparison:

I had ancient Italian values there too and filtered them out until I was left with 8, of whom I only selected six. Now I have decided to exclude the two individuals with noticeable ancient Armenian mixture as it creates problems, Alb profiles are attracted to it, and it all comes from the Arm_Noratus being built in, which is the main MENA component in the modern Balkans.

Code:

  [TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I10952_J-Z7706[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]ITA_Sicily_Himera_409BCE:I17866_J-Z35779[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7217_L-L595[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7219_G-PF3346[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Code:

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl65"]Classical_Greek_Himera_6th_BCE:Average,0.119799,0.164008,-0.00659975,-0.0663765,0.0275435,-0.02279925,-0.0032315,-0.0045575,0.008641,0.044329,0.0032885,0.01082775,-0.02021775,-0.0008945,-0.01689725,-0.01153525,0.00827925,-0.000285,0.00584475,-0.00816025,-0.007549,0.0058115,-0.00003075,0.0049705,-0.00179625[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

kingjohn · Nov 7, 2022

Jovialis said:
This is one of those things I'll be checking on every day until it is released.

I can understand
As there is a huge chance we going to
See r1b-z2103 in this paper

Along with g, j, I,t
And maybe even some e-v13

eupator · Nov 7, 2022

kingjohn said:
I can understand
As there is a huge chance we going to
See r1b-z2103 in this paper

Ancient Greek z2103?

kingjohn · Nov 7, 2022

eupator said:
Ancient Greek z2103?

I don't know i am not expert on r1b tree structure
I just think we going to see some r1b generally speaking in this future paper

P.s
This r1b branch look balkan (though young)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2705/

Angela · Nov 7, 2022

PaleoRevenge said:
I based it on this comparison:

I had ancient Italian values there too and filtered them out until I was left with 8, of whom I only selected six. Now I have decided to exclude the two individuals with noticeable ancient Armenian mixture as it creates problems, Alb profiles are attracted to it, and it all comes from the Arm_Noratus being built in, which is the main MENA component in the modern Balkans.

Code:

[TABLE] [TR] [TD]ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I10952_J-Z7706[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]ITA_Sicily_Himera_409BCE:I17866_J-Z35779[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7217_L-L595[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7219_G-PF3346[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE]

Code:

[TABLE] [TR] [TD="class: xl65"]Classical_Greek_Himera_6th_BCE:Average,0.119799,0.164008,-0.00659975,-0.0663765,0.0275435,-0.02279925,-0.0032315,-0.0045575,0.008641,0.044329,0.0032885,0.01082775,-0.02021775,-0.0008945,-0.01689725,-0.01153525,0.00827925,-0.000285,0.00584475,-0.00816025,-0.007549,0.0058115,-0.00003075,0.0049705,-0.00179625[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE]

You have too many source populations, some of which are from the wrong area. There's only one comparison which needs to be made to answer the question as to how similar the modern Greeks are to the Mycenaeans: the Himera samples versus the Mycenaeans. That has nothing to do with Albania or North Makedonia.

Please just provide the link where I can find the coordinates for the modern Greek samples.

PaleoRevenge · Nov 7, 2022

Davidski datasheet, which is always updated.
https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/07/getting-most-out-of-global25_12.html

Click on modern population averages, scaled, lot's of Greek regional averages. I think the original six average, make a better representation of classical Greek profile.

eupator · Nov 7, 2022

kingjohn said:
I don't know i am not expert on r1b tree structure
I just think we going to see some r1b generally speaking in this future paper
P.s
This r1b branch look balkan (though young)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2705/

Which is the branch your leak told you about?

Angela · Nov 7, 2022

PaleoRevenge said:
Davidski datasheet, which is always updated.
https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/07/getting-most-out-of-global25_12.html

Click on modern population averages, scaled, lot's of Greek regional averages. I think the original six average, make a better representation of classical Greek profile.

Thanks,

Again, Classical Greeks are the Greeks of Socrates' time, and Pericles, i.e. the Golden Age, and maybe the Imperial Age.

Angela · Nov 7, 2022

These are the Himera samples which Paleo provided.

The results bear out what I've posted numerous times in more than one thread: the ancient Greek warriors of Humira are REMARKABLY similar to the Mycenaeans, which is extraordinary given the passage of time. As the new paper on the Aegeans found, the ancient Greeks, at least until the late Iron Age, practiced endogamy, and that is perhaps the reason that the genomic signature remained stable.

Now that I've proved it to you guys using your beloved G25, can we consider the matter settled?

Well, Paleo, if you read this, could you provide the coordinates for the Himera samples which you "discarded"? In fact, it would be good to have all of the "Greek" like samples. I'm bothering you again because the link you provided to the Eurogenes site doesn't seem to have the Himera samples, unless I just don't know what he calls them.

Distance to:	ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I10952_J-Z7706
0.02543659	GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13514
0.03380503	GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I15571
0.03484443	GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13506
0.03660113	GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I19366
0.03787228	GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13518
0.03974583	GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I19364
0.04122315	GRC_Mycenaean:I9041
0.04744151	GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13517
0.04762203	AJF
0.04873939	GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I16709
0.04995347	GRC_Mycenaean:I9033
0.04999666	GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA:Kou01
0.05099818	GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13577
0.05147082	GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3920
0.05213962	GRC_Kastrouli_Anc:I17962
0.05422734	GRC_Manika_Helladic_EBA:Mik15
0.05551064	GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log02
0.05587419	GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0071
0.05610574	GRC_Minoan_Kephala_Petrasta08
0.05613208	GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA:Kou03
0.05676221	GRC_Mycenaean:I9006
0.05722032	GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13578
0.05725344	GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I15582
0.05776578	GRC_Palace_of_Nestor_EIA:I19368
0.06036105	GRC_Mycenaean:I9010
0.06363404	GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0073
0.06477613	GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3709
0.06561545	GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0074
0.06596190	GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0070
0.07083648	GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res:I9130
0.07097364	GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I9005
0.07261823	GRC_Minoan_Zakros_BA:I14916
0.07907748	GRC_Marathon_Rom:I7833
0.08062282	GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3708
0.08135989	GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res:I9131
0.08260487	GRC_Peloponnese_N:I2937
0.08424114	GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log04
0.08437418	GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res:I9129
0.09345695	GRC_Peloponnese_N:I2318
0.10265945	GRC_N:I5427

Distance to:	ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I10945_J-Y151557
0.03247105	GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13518
0.03473057	GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I15571
0.03814531	GRC_Mycenaean:I9041
0.03953575	GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13514
0.04197897	GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I19366
0.04255268	GRC_Kastrouli_Anc:I17962
0.04636406	GRC_Mycenaean:I9033
0.04683550	GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I19364
0.04734188	GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13577
0.04759738	GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA:Kou03
0.04898699	GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13506
0.05133066	GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I16709
0.05186836	AJF
0.05205695	GRC_Mycenaean:I9006
0.05279661	GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13517
0.05309321	GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3920
0.05584752	GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA:Kou01
0.05693412	GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0071
0.05841998	GRC_Palace_of_Nestor_EIA:I19368
0.05903148	GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log02
0.05974824	GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I15582
0.06062264	GRC_Mycenaean:I9010
0.06335956	GRC_Manika_Helladic_EBA:Mik15
0.06480466	GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13578
0.06511126	GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0073
0.06523769	GRC_Minoan_Kephala_Petrasta08
0.06723606	GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0074
0.06881934	GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0070
0.07011367	GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I9005
0.07083454	GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3709
0.07133032	GRC_Minoan_Zakros_BA:I14916
0.07286214	GRC_Marathon_Rom:I7833
0.08089253	GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log04
0.08470596	GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3708
0.08529462	GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res:I9131
0.08548323	GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res:I9130
0.08918383	GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res:I9129
0.09277195	GRC_Peloponnese_N:I2937
0.09788642	GRC_Peloponnese_N:I2318
0.10905508	GRC_N:I5427

Distance to:	ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7221_G-Z42565
0.02714739	GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I15571
0.02968189	GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I19366
0.03154771	GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13518
0.03185732	GRC_Mycenaean:I9041
0.03523865	GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13514
0.03804296	GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA:Kou03
0.03872851	GRC_Mycenaean:I9006
0.03891560	GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13506
0.04037638	GRC_Kastrouli_Anc:I17962
0.04176911	GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13577
0.04195668	GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I15582
0.04322978	GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13517
0.04454098	GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3920
0.04531823	AJF
0.04948096	GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I16709
0.04984238	GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0071
0.05032750	GRC_Mycenaean:I9010
0.05152731	GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA:Kou01
0.05437717	GRC_Palace_of_Nestor_EIA:I19368
0.05466088	GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13578
0.05508855	GRC_Mycenaean:I9033
0.05519557	GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I19364
0.05692955	GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0070
0.05712982	GRC_Marathon_Rom:I7833
0.06076017	GRC_Minoan_Kephala_Petrasta08
0.06148249	GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log02
0.06426838	GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0074
0.06485102	GRC_Manika_Helladic_EBA:Mik15
0.06552354	GRC_Minoan_Zakros_BA:I14916
0.06556138	GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0073
0.06712837	GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I9005
0.06860398	GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3709
0.07058675	GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res:I9131
0.07943219	GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res:I9130
0.08398195	GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3708
0.08895118	GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log04
0.09077354	GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res:I9129
0.09401342	GRC_Peloponnese_N:I2318
0.09422010	GRC_Peloponnese_N:I2937
0.10752174	GRC_N:I5427

Distance to:	ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7219_G-PF3346
0.02651243	GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13518
0.03162766	GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I15571
0.03326141	GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I19366
0.03497224	GRC_Mycenaean:I9041
0.03828237	GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13577
0.03830525	GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3920
0.04084855	GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA:Kou03
0.04118418	GRC_Mycenaean:I9006
0.04140656	GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I15582
0.04192236	GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13506
0.04237679	GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13514
0.04279907	GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0071
0.04368782	GRC_Kastrouli_Anc:I17962
0.04682913	GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I16709
0.04763509	GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA:Kou01
0.04894766	GRC_Mycenaean:I9010
0.04911223	GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I19364
0.05050514	GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I9005
0.05122425	GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0070
0.05196668	GRC_Manika_Helladic_EBA:Mik15
0.05199980	GRC_Minoan_Kephala_Petrasta08
0.05203948	GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13578
0.05361299	GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3709
0.05505020	GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0074
0.05530763	GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0073
0.05683552	GRC_Mycenaean:I9033
0.05880151	GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13517
0.06363278	AJF
0.06430887	GRC_Minoan_Zakros_BA:I14916
0.06506078	GRC_Palace_of_Nestor_EIA:I19368
0.06655903	GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res:I9131
0.06682598	GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log02
0.06737651	GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3708
0.07209535	GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res:I9130
0.07487935	GRC_Peloponnese_N:I2318
0.07817991	GRC_Peloponnese_N:I2937
0.07872996	GRC_Marathon_Rom:I7833
0.08108170	GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res:I9129
0.09039077	GRC_N:I5427
0.09797433	GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log04

Distance to:	ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7217_L-L595
0.02731350	GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I15571
0.03159807	GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13514
0.03346409	GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I19364
0.03571646	GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13518
0.03927105	GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I19366
0.04119980	GRC_Mycenaean:I9041
0.04148784	GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3920
0.04201898	GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA:Kou01
0.04294179	GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13506
0.04359142	GRC_Kastrouli_Anc:I17962
0.04543419	GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0071
0.04858077	GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I16709
0.04948387	GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA:Kou03
0.05034393	GRC_Manika_Helladic_EBA:Mik15
0.05223663	GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13577
0.05239355	GRC_Mycenaean:I9006
0.05243202	GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13517
0.05321447	GRC_Minoan_Kephala_Petrasta08
0.05335294	GRC_Mycenaean:I9033
0.05570593	GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I15582
0.05648378	GRC_Mycenaean:I9010
0.05664967	GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0070
0.05667533	AJF
0.05691519	GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13578
0.05707814	GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0073
0.05709354	GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0074
0.05911598	GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3709
0.06305633	GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I9005
0.06341366	GRC_Palace_of_Nestor_EIA:I19368
0.06510218	GRC_Minoan_Zakros_BA:I14916
0.06670118	GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log02
0.06854976	GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res:I9130
0.07096271	GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3708
0.07332656	GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res:I9131
0.07768568	GRC_Peloponnese_N:I2937
0.07770512	GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res:I9129
0.07978948	GRC_Marathon_Rom:I7833
0.08790797	GRC_Peloponnese_N:I2318
0.09216149	GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log04
0.09640940	GRC_N:I5427

Distance to:	ITA_Sicily_Himera_409BCE:I17866_J-Z35779
0.02176178	GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I19366
0.02832345	GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13518
0.03024722	GRC_Mycenaean:I9041
0.03038320	GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I15571
0.03620426	GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13514
0.03671691	GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA:Kou03
0.03689816	GRC_Kastrouli_Anc:I17962
0.03882081	GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3920
0.04108396	GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13506
0.04199106	GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13577
0.04230112	GRC_Mycenaean:I9006
0.04315774	GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA:Kou01
0.04509971	GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I15582
0.04785669	GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13517
0.04859334	GRC_Mycenaean:I9010
0.04883960	GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0071
0.04956724	GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I19364
0.04969721	GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13578
0.05149068	GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I16709
0.05213645	GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0070
0.05368111	GRC_Minoan_Kephala_Petrasta08
0.05424858	GRC_Manika_Helladic_EBA:Mik15
0.05444364	GRC_Mycenaean:I9033
0.05464354	GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I9005
0.05584527	GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3709
0.05595427	AJF
0.05820363	GRC_Minoan_Zakros_BA:I14916
0.05839125	GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0073
0.06100906	GRC_Palace_of_Nestor_EIA:I19368
0.06294434	GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0074
0.06639925	GRC_Marathon_Rom:I7833
0.06737655	GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log02
0.07060659	GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res:I9130
0.07075303	GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res:I9131
0.07284823	GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3708
0.08169280	GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res:I9129
0.08475178	GRC_Peloponnese_N:I2318
0.08518796	GRC_Peloponnese_N:I2937
0.09592823	GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log04
0.09648638	GRC_N:I5427

PaleoRevenge · Nov 7, 2022

Hi Angela, I think my first average made of these six, is the most precise profile of IA Greeks.

Code:

  [TABLE]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl65"]ITA_Sicily_Himera_409BCE:I17866_J-Z35779,0.121791,0.165531,-0.014331,-0.06783,0.023081,-0.022032,-0.00658,-0.002538,0.015339,0.03991,-0.000974,0.014237,-0.020515,0.005643,-0.012486,-0.004508,0.015385,-0.000507,0.008422,-0.001376,-0.005116,0.004822,0.001602,0.000964,-0.002275[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl65"]ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7217_L-L595,0.121791,0.159438,-0.010182,-0.064923,0.03139,-0.026216,-0.00047,-0.008077,0.00634,0.047199,0.007145,0.010191,-0.020218,-0.003578,-0.017779,-0.012198,0.003651,0.000127,0.004525,-0.021385,-0.00836,0.006059,-0.003451,0.018677,0.003353[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl65"]ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7219_G-PF3346,0.121791,0.168578,-0.001886,-0.068476,0.023697,-0.024821,0.005405,0.000692,0.005727,0.046835,0.002923,0.010341,-0.026759,-0.007707,-0.02253,-0.016176,0.019166,-0.00038,0.008547,0.001626,-0.013351,0.002102,-0.000246,-0.003976,-0.004431[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl65"]ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7221_G-Z42565,0.120652,0.160454,-0.010559,-0.064923,0.016003,-0.029562,-0.00235,-0.005307,-0.003681,0.033896,0.003573,0.005845,-0.012785,-0.003991,-0.014386,-0.009679,0.012517,0.001014,0.003394,-0.001501,-0.010981,0.007666,-0.004807,0.003735,-0.004071[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl65"]ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I10945_J-Y151557,0.114961,0.15436,-0.011314,-0.050065,0.016926,-0.026216,-0.00376,-0.003231,0.00859,0.039181,-0.000812,0.014387,-0.021556,0.002064,-0.018594,-0.018828,0.01356,-0.002787,0.014581,-0.017633,-0.019341,0.011376,0.001725,0.010965,-0.005269[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl65"]ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I10952_J-Z7706,0.113823,0.162485,0,-0.064277,0.032006,-0.018128,-0.011281,-0.008307,0.007158,0.043372,0.00406,0.008542,-0.013379,0.002064,-0.014794,-0.013259,-0.005085,-0.00038,0.001885,-0.011506,-0.003369,0.010263,0.001972,0.004217,-0.003832[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Code:

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl65"]Classical_Greek_Himera_6th_BCE:Average,0.119134833333333,0.161807666666667,-0.00804533333333333,-0.0634156666666667,0.0238505,-0.0244958333333333,-0.00317266666666667,-0.00446133333333333,0.00657883333333333,0.0417321666666667,0.0026525,0.0105905,-0.019202,-0.0009175,-0.0167615,-0.0124413333333333,0.00986566666666667,-0.0004855,0.00689233333333333,-0.00862916666666667,-0.0100863333333333,0.007048,-0.000534166666666667,0.00576366666666667,-0.00275416666666667[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

I am basing it on this

These are the two values I never included in the average, because they seem a bit different, scoring high I10379 Skopje.

Code:

  [TABLE]
  [TR]
   [TD="class: xl65, width: 64"]ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7218,0.118376,0.161469,-0.001508,-0.06137,0.025851,-0.032351,0.00235,0.000692,0.008795,0.047746,0.008931,0.006744,-0.011596,-0.011285,-0.019679,0.006895,0.033639,0.001647,0.012318,-0.005503,-0.012603,-0.003586,-0.005669,0.006507,-0.013532[/TD]
  [/TR]
  [TR]
   [TD="class: xl65"]ITA_Sicily_Himera_409BCE:I7224,0.125205,0.165531,0.005657,-0.050065,0.024004,-0.018686,-0.00282,-0.004846,0.020657,0.043372,-0.001949,0.009741,-0.024083,-0.005367,-0.00855,0.000928,0.028163,-0.004941,0.000754,0.002251,-0.007612,0.00136,0.003451,0.008555,-0.006107[/TD]
  [/TR]
 [/TABLE]

Hawk · Nov 7, 2022

I saw one post in anthrogenica, it looks like E-V13 will appear in other Sicilian IA sites 600-300 BC, the affinity being unknown. J2b2-L283 as well. But the sites are Phoenician, of course they could be some mercenaries, but from where? I doubt from far-away countries.

I don't even know how some people are getting to know samples without being published. Feels like cheat-codes when we used to play Counter Strike.

mount123 · Nov 7, 2022

Hawk said:
I saw one post in anthrogenica, it looks like E-V13 will appear in other Sicilian IA sites 600-300 BC, the affinity being unknown. J2b2-L283 as well. But the sites are Phoenician, of course they could be some mercenaries, but from where? I doubt from far-away countries.

I don't even know how some people are getting to know samples without being published. Feels like cheat-codes when we used to play Counter Strike.

Saw that one too.

Mainly via citizen scientists, archeologists who too have access to certain papers, geneticists or from related fields. Some of them are also active on that forum. Some authors are also willing to share further infos on the prevalence of certain types of data albeit mostly with actual colleagues from the same field and they in turn share it with aDNA enthusiasts. There is also lectures about certain papers prior to being published. Something along these lines.

That is a great way to put it actually

I find it just annoying how some like to brag about it and act as though they are guardians of some super secret internal state affairs. Remember the IA Thracian fiasco? That is why I always double check the sources.

kingjohn · Nov 7, 2022

eupator said:
Which is the branch your leak told you about?

no leak
just a fealing
and that could be the case indeed
there are going to be in this paper:
102 remains from mainland greece , crete, greek islands from neolithic to the iron age periods
probably half or close to half wil be males
so the odds are that we are going to see at least some r1b

PaleoRevenge · Nov 8, 2022

kingjohn said:
no leak
just a fealing
and that could be the case indeed
there are going to be in this paper:
102 remains from mainland greece , crete, greek islands from neolithic to the iron age periods
probably half or close to half wil be males
so the odds are that we are going to see at least some r1b

When is the estimated release date?

kingjohn · Nov 9, 2022

Hawk said:
I saw one post in anthrogenica, it looks like E-V13 will appear in other Sicilian IA sites 600-300 BC, the affinity being unknown. J2b2-L283 as well. But the sites are Phoenician, of course they could be some mercenaries, but from where? I doubt from far-away countries.
I don't even know how some people are getting to know samples without being published. Feels like cheat-codes when we used to play Counter Strike.

Fascinating
Phoenician sites
maybe we are going to see also some
E(×v13) like e-v22 branch which is present in modern sicilians

The diverse genetic origins of a Classical period Greek army

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