The Gay Marriage Controversy

[Sennevini]

There is indication that the orientation is determined by the brain structure. As brain structure is mainly developped in a child who is still in the womb, the environment of the womb - hormones - may play a significant role in structuring the brain of the unborn baby. In that way, the baby is born with it's sexual orientation, but without a gene as single cause.

 

[hope]

Proof that sexual orientation is not genetic is that identical twins can have different sexual orientations. IMHO the most convincing evidence is that it is primarily epigenetic, per Friberg & Rice. That indicates that it is (primarily) nature rather than nurture, so gays are born that way, but it is not (strictly) hereditary in the sense that there is a persistent gene. It solves the issue of how people cannot seem to choose their orientation, as well as the issue that a theoretical "gay gene" would be suicidal.

I agree..I think at the moment this is indeed the most compelling. I was actually going to quote the same study sparkey. I think "probably" in the next few years epigenetic studies may well give answers. [ however please to note I said probably..I`m not going to the guillotine for this just yet]


EDIT: Strike the last two sentences above..your Friberg and Rice link is more up to date than the one I had, seems they are much further along

 

[hope]

I think we are paying a high price for fallacy of 70s in psychology believing that people are born as clean slate. More precisely that our brains are in state of clean slate at birth. Meaning all we are, we learnt from parents and environment.

Yes, I would go with that LeBrok. I think however it is fair to say most have now adapted to the notion of nature and nurture..some perhaps more to nature.

 

[Fire Haired]

There is indication that the orientation is determined by the brain structure. As brain structure is mainly developped in a child who is still in the womb, the environment of the womb - hormones - may play a significant role in structuring the brain of the unborn baby. In that way, the baby is born with it's sexual orientation, but without a gene as single cause.

then why do gay men use their privets and testosterone like straight men. There is no evidence they use differnt hormones they used female estrogen they would not hump there is no evidence gay men use estrogen for sexuality or that gay women use cornerstone if gay women dont have pennis their not lesbian. i think it is possible though but extremely unlikely that maybe a man could get more estrogen that may make them have some female sexuality. but it wont really effect his sexuality if it was estrogen that cause gay men they would not hump they would act like women when it comes to stuff like that and they would not be men that makes them women too.

i know that stuff is sick and unappropriate but it is needed for these arguments. i have not seen any good evidence for people being born gay.

 

[Fire Haired]

Thanks for the novel, but I just needed this line above. So hold on to this thought. If you agree it is an instinct it means, that from two things that makes us - the nature and nurture, you think that our main sexual behaviour is controlled mostly by Nature. I completely agree with this too. If it is Nature then it means that it is in our DNA. DNA dictates architecture of our brain and basic instincts. Therefore this simple exercise tells us that our sexual instinct, our sexual preferences (whether woman's body excites you, or man's. one) is coded in DNA and brain architecture (we are born with).
In short, we are born with our partner's sex preference. It is simple like that, you hit puberty and you automatically know. No classes needed.
If you strictly straight man only female body can sexuly excite you, so there is no way you could hump man.

people can still dictate their sexuality why do some people attracted to animals u really think that is natural. People can defintley pervert and it is most likely they can do it on the same gender because the same gender looks more similar to the oppiste gender than a dog.

also do u think people might be naturalley more attracted to their race. if u think about europeans ancestors have been separated from sub sharen Africans ancestors for over 100,000 year we already know some evolution happened so it is possible.

humping is for reproduction so why would if there was a homosexually hormone which there is not from what i know. would it cause them to try to reproduce. I think that shows they have normal male instinct but they are perverting it.

Not really, billions of man on this planet had same experience. You made it personal with your long post.

i always make long posts and i thought that is what u wanted.

 

[Fire Haired]

Gee... it may have to do with the fact that if I walked in on two men humping each other, my first reaction wouldn't be "Aha! A clear sign that these men are straight!"

what i am trying to say is it shows they have nromal male insict. they use the same hormones they dont have a gay hormone and their body is trying to reproduce which is suppose to be with a female. they are just perverting their nature.

 

[Fire Haired]

Proof that sexual orientation is not genetic is that identical twins can have different sexual orientations. IMHO the most convincing evidence is that it is primarily epigenetic, per Friberg & Rice. That indicates that it is (primarily) nature rather than nurture, so gays are born that way, but it is not (strictly) hereditary in the sense that there is a persistent gene. It solves the issue of how people cannot seem to choose their orientation, as well as the issue that a theoretical "gay gene" would be suicidal.

Since the gay gene does not exist no one is born gay. men have the same sexual hormones and behavior as straight men same with gay women and straight women. i think gay people just pervert what they are suppose to do. i think it is choose and the source is psychological.

 

[Sennevini]

Well, main point in this theory - which is quite popular in my country these days -
is the structure of the brain. It's not that gay people use more female hormones, it's that their
brain structure differs slightly from straight people.


I don't think one chooses his own brain structure and size.


I think the brain governs the personality of a person, and therefore
the brain structure may hold the key to that.
Here it is important to make difference between what one feels, and how one acts


I think the brain governs what one feels, whom one is attracted to, whom one would like to "hump". I think that is
a innate, inborn thing. If one acts on that feeling, as to say, chooses to "hump", then that is a behavioural thing, not written in the brain.

 

[Fire Haired]

Sexuality, not Sexual characteristics. You forget we are all female at conception, and the amount of testosterone determines sex. The Y chromosome has a big part to play in the amount of testosterone that develops. If there is a genetic link to sexuality, then it is hormonal. I strongly believe that if sexuality is open socially people would have no problem experimenting. At the end of the day genetics might steer one back to the opposite sex, but it doesn't stop one from trying; society does that. The common disgust, and revolting attitude towards homosexuality is all social and not genetic. A person learns to hate, they are not born with it.

well people are born with the ability to hate learn to do it to a extreme. also people are born with sexuality but can pervert it. Also some people might have a better chance to be tempted by homosexuality based on their past live experiences.

Also since from what i have seen there is no good evidence anyone is born gay it seems abosultly impossible. So that makes me disagree with gay marriage why let people do what is unnatural why let a little kid think a bird is his mom. and homosexulaty is more sick and serious than other perversions. Also it in huge war and crisis it hurts are chances of survival.

Also falling in love and sexualley things is for a man and a woman.

 

[Fire Haired]

Well, main point in this theory - which is quite popular in my country these days -
is the structure of the brain. It's not that gay people use more female hormones, it's that their
brain structure differs slightly from straight people.


I don't think one chooses his own brain structure and size.


I think the brain governs the personality of a person, and therefore
the brain structure may hold the key to that.
Here it is important to make difference between what one feels, and how one acts


I think the brain governs what one feels, whom one is attracted to, whom one would like to "hump". I think that is
a innate, inborn thing. If one acts on that feeling, as to say, chooses to "hump", then that is a behavioural thing, not written in the brain.

i still dont think that is good evidence i have heard in science class and tv that scientits know the sexuall parts of the brain. I am pretty sure they have not found a gay brian. Also humping is a straight thing it is for reproduction gay men use the same hromones and behavour as straight men same with gay women and striaght women.

So what i have concluded is that gay people have the same sexuality as straight people. Gay men dont have straight womens sexuality and gay women dont have straight men's sexuality. Also gay men and women dont have their own form of sexuality so all they are doing is perverting the naturall way. Also people do convert to being gay or straight i think that is more evidence gay people are gay out of choose and past life experiences.

I still think there might be something very complicated in the brian that might somehow cause homosexuality. but i am extremely doubtful all the evidence points to that not being the case and if it was it counts for a small minority of gays. so do most people in the Netherlands think that gays are naturally gay i am intrested on what their arguments are if they do think that.

 

[Fire Haired]

I agree..I think at the moment this is indeed the most compelling. I was actually going to quote the same study sparkey. I think "probably" in the next few years epigenetic studies may well give answers. [ however please to note I said probably..I`m not going to the guillotine for this just yet]


EDIT: Strike the last two sentences above..your Friberg and Rice link is more up to date than the one I had, seems they are much further along

Frib & breg seem to be saying tha homosexuality is caused in the womb and some how male babies can be somewhat femalized and vi versa with females. but my orignal argument i think defeates that male gays and female gays use the same sexuality as starght people. If gay men wbecame gay in the womb because they where femized then why do they use pennis testostorne and act like straight men obvisouly they dont have a females sexuality.

I have heard the argument they gay men have females sexuality and gay women have males sexuality. and it is not true so i think that study is wrong. In my opinion that is not good evidence but i am open to see more arguments if u have some. Also i just want to say these studies are most likely biased and want to say people are born gay.

i think three needs to be a hige unbiased serious study on homosexuality. they nned to not just assume if some men have more estrogen their gay look at their behavour if they sexualley act like men then they dont have womens sexuality. Study the psychological back round of people. I think they will come up with the conclusion that most likely no one is born gay. My orignmal argument has still not been defeated. If gay men hump and use testosterone and have the same sexuall behavior estrogen is not the source of their gayness. So then the other possibility is something in their dna causes them to want to try to reproduce with a man with makes no sense.

i think my orignal argument makes alot of sense. i gave this argument to my very very pro gay science teacher he is actulley a hig expert ins cience. He could not give a response his only argument was the estrogen testosterone stuff which mty argument proves incorrect. He said something that i think anyone including gay people he said there are 1-2 billion natural gays, 1-2 billion natural straights, and the rest are bisexual where is the scientific evidence he had none.

Sex is for making kids why on evlotion would there be so many gays. also he said well i am naturally straight i am attracted to wmen but that is what like every man would say and they have the same experiences as him but he thinks most are bi sexual or gay. His thoery is absloutley extreme and has no evidence.

 

[LeBrok]

people can still dictate their sexuality why do some people attracted to animals u really think that is natural.

There are very few people sexuly atracted to animals. It is in realm of DNA mutation, or brain damage/malnutrition. Do you personally know someone like this? Me neither.

Can yo tell me why there are Asexual people? People who never been sexuly atracted to anyone. Never felt a sexual need or desire. What does bible say about these people?
Why homosexuality exists in animal kingdom? Is this unnatural too?
Why there are siamese twins, or cows with two heads, or 5 legs? Wouldn't you say unnatural?
Why people are born deformed and sick? Do you think it is all environmental? Or is it god's will to punish parents?
Why half of all fetuses are aborted naturally by mothers' body? Half of human population is naturally killed before conception. I wonder why. (yes there is research about this, I just don't have time to find it)

People can defintley pervert and it is most likely they can do it on the same gender because the same gender looks more similar to the oppiste gender than a dog.

I'm not in your brain and can't follow your thoughts. Please try to be clear with your writing.

also do u think people might be naturalley more attracted to their race. if u think about europeans ancestors have been separated from sub sharen Africans ancestors for over 100,000 year we already know some evolution happened so it is possible.

I thought when two humans have sex and it is culminated with a kid, you would call it a natural way, right? So what is this example about?!
When two races mate is it a perversion or deviation for you?

humping is for reproduction so why would if there was a homosexually hormone which there is not from what i know. would it cause them to try to reproduce. I think that shows they have normal male instinct but they are perverting it.

You mixing some things, that's why they don't make sense for you.
Hormones like testosterone can't decide who you going to like. They can give you full erection and lots of strength when you find a person (or dog) that you like. The brain wiring is actually responsible for finding this person. Your eyes catch the light reflected from her, they send impulses to visual cortex to make sense of this light and work with patterns. Once, the pleasant/sexual patterns, are recognized it is send to Amygdala where all emotions are located. And only then you will feel the sexual desire, after this, the right hormones are released and you get an erection.
First brain (pattern, desire), then humping. If your brain doesn't get the right pattern (female body) there is no humping, not even with most handsome man. (unless you have wiring for that too)
The decision about desire starts in your brain, based on neuronal connections. Brain is the biggest sex organ. And when it comes to sexual preferences, what excites you, it is mostly hardwired, stuff you're born with. It all starts in brain.

I would like to remind you that, when we did this puberty exercise, you admitted that sexual excitement came automatically in natural way. It pointed us to hardwired functions of brain and DNA role in sexuality. Unfortunately, instead of following this development, you disregarded it and went along with your previous convictions. It doesn't really sits right with scientific mind, wouldn't you say?

Sennevini is right. There are research based on brain scans showing that gay man has different brain from straight man brain. Gay brain is, how should we put it, more feminine. Well, it explains a lot, it explains why gay man want to have sex with man, isn't it? And no, you can't change so much brain architecture by learning and environment. They are born with female brain in man's body. One of nature's many screw ups.

i always make long posts and i thought that is what u wanted.

No, I never asked you this. You acted on your natural instinct, which makes you talk a lot and write a lot. Can you stop this natural instinct?
Perhaps with difficulty and dislike (we'll see in the future), and we are not talking about strong primal sexual instinct.

 

[LeBrok]

My orignmal argument has still not been defeated. If gay men hump and use testosterone and have the same sexuall behavior estrogen is not the source of their gayness. So then the other possibility is something in their dna causes them to want to try to reproduce with a man with makes no sense.

It's been defeated long time ago by decades of research, you've just never read it.
Again, testosterone doesn't have anything to do with sexual orientation. Only brain architecture does. Testosterone controls sexual libido, but not orientation. Women also have testosterone and actually it is rising with age. And yet older women don't turn lesbian.

So then the other possibility is something in their dna causes them to want to try to reproduce with a man with makes no sense.

You are on the right track here. Surely it is confusing but it doesn't mean it is not true.
Homosexuality exists also in animal kingdom. Isn't it confusing? but I guess, it makes it natural.
People with very short 'useless' penises, or having both genitals, or ones with third nipple are confusing too. Why the hell something like this happened? It doesn't make sense.
Well, it doesn't make sense only from point of view of functionality of normal human being. But nature doesn't give a shit about what we think or feel about this. From dawn of life on Earth, nature uses blind changes, mutations, mistakes, mixing genes of different species, etc, to find out the best combination for new successful life forms. If billions of deformed unfortunate individuals dies unhappy in this process, so be it. She doesn't care. Loving mother nature? Think again. How about "cruel beach"?
If god had made us, or any other conscious logical being, even scientists, we all would have been smart, good and beautiful. Unfortunately we are in hands of blind natural selection, the forces of nature, hence the mess, confusion and less than perfect people.

Going back to gay issue. As I mentioned before, it is not only human phenomenon. Homosexuals or biosexuals exist among other animals too. This actually proves that it is not cultural thing but a easy to make genetic mistake. Looking at science, it is a mistake made during brain development. Individual is getting female like brain in man's body, and vice versa for lesbiens.
However, unlike in animals situation, homosexuality in people happens on bigger scale. We don't know exactly the cause of this increase, and it doesn't make sense from point of view of natural selection, being evolutionary dead end.

Here is my take on this cause:
For a very long time people lived in small patrilocal societies with arranged marriages. Also in small groups any deviation from normal is not tolerated very well, if at all. The disfigured, the gay, the odd looking always got the short end of a stick. Somebody had to be sacrificed for gods, or was kicked out of village for bringing bad luck. Let's be honest, they would be proclaimed unnatural by folks like yourself. The point is that being openly gay wasn't an option (it is still not an option in small European villages). You either pretend that you're straight and marry or you're dead.
Well good amount of social and family pressure, scare of being unnatural and eternity in hell, and gays got married too, and with opposite sex. Some more family pressure and they managed to make kid or two, and their gay mutation could survive in DNA.

To prove my hypothesis I will make a prediction. If I'm right, in open tolerant societies, where gays don't hide their sexuality, the number of homosexuals will fall sharply during next generation or two to the level comparable to gayness among other animal species. Which I think is no more than 1 percent. The number is still sort of big, but I think, it shows that this genetic/brain architecture mistake is a very easy to make. I guess, brain development is a very complicated process.

I hope the nature make a bit more sense now.

 

[alibaz]

What I am finding very interesting about this very difficult subject is the assumption that you know what 'normal' is and that there is a 'normal' way for people to behave and that this is a mutation.

 

[LeBrok]

What I am finding very interesting about this very difficult subject is the assumption that you know what 'normal' is and that there is a 'normal' way for people to behave and that this is a mutation.

If you're referring to my post, I used word "normal" as defined/used by Fire Haired, mostly meaning a natural way, and not invented by people as cultural phenomenon. Not necessarily as common definition would imply.

PS. Don't be shy, elaborate you point.

 

[ebAmerican]

Again, testosterone doesn't have anything to do with sexual orientation. Only brain architecture does. Testosterone controls sexual libido, but not orientation. Women also have testosterone and actually it is rising with age. And yet older women don't turn lesbian.

Your missing the point of the hormone homosexual theory. It's testosterone levels during fetal development, not after birth. Testosterone controls sexual desire. It is proven by all the horny teenagers after puberty. It is a powerful hormone. It can affects emotion, sexual libido, and development. I read the study that was posted earlier about epy-genes, and it make some sense. I think I would have to agree that homosexuality to an extant, and really any sexuality, is strongly governed by both Nurture and Nature. I still strongly believe that all people are capable of forming tight relationships with both sexes. It doesn't always mean they will turn sexual, but have a good chance if certain circumstance prevail. Like I said earlier, the reaction of repulsion to homosexual activity is strictly social and religious. If, as a society we can become desensitized to violence, and encourage violence, then we surely can be tolerate of the sexual act. Lets face it, most of the disgust coming from homosexuals is their feminine traits and the thought of anal sex in a society that values masculinity in men and disproves of anal sex. Ask any guy and he has no problems with "lip stick lesbians ", but add a butch lesbian and it's a different story. We value femininity in our woman, and not masculinity (modern definitions). The conditioning of attraction is strictly social and has very little to do with genetics. The genetic part is strictly reproduction with someone who is different. It cares less what that individual looks like, as long as they can produce a genetically diverse child.

Even in the hormone homosexual theory, there are many fetus' that show abnormal hormone levels that grow up heterosexual. There are just as many individuals that show the specific homosexual brain image patterning as adults, that are happily heterosexual.

I recently watched a program on History or Discovery (can't remember) called the Science of Attraction, and how pheromones play a large part in sexual attractions. They did an interesting experiment with vaginal secretions. They took the secretions in very low levels where they couldn't be detected, but were present and gave them to male participants to smell. They showed a series of photos to the men before giving them the secretions and asked them to rate the woman on a scale of 1-10 for attractiveness. They then gave the male participants the secretions and asked them to rate the same woman again on a scale of 1-10. Prior to the secretions they rated the woman all over the board. After they gave the men the vaginal secretions (which was in a breathing apparatus, and they didn't know if it was on or off) they rated all the women in the upper range.

A similar experiment using male sweat was performed on women. The woman's job was to rate the smell on a scale of 1-10 of different towels, that had different male sweat on each. They took the DNA of each participant. both male and female, and found out that the towels woman choose as having the best smell were least genetically similar. The scientist concluded this was a protection mechanism against inbreeding, and allowed a more diverse genetic offspring. They found that homogenous groups of people have less protection against disease . It was natures way of insuring survival.

What happens when nature doesn't need those survival tactics (population control) and these genetic protection markers are shut off? Until there is a smoking gun I have to believe that if the markers are shut off, then the individual is free to choose (social conditioning). I would argue there is more evidence of a genetic disposition to being heterosexual (survival of the species), then an actual homosexual gene that makes one homosexual. My theory is this heterosexual gene is turned off, and the child bonds to the same sex while developing through puberty. He/she doesn't have the same response to the opposite sex pheromones. As homosexual behavior is accepted, and child conditioning allows for equal tolerance in picking a mate, then we will see an increase in homosexuals in society as more children born with the heterosexual gene turned off pick same sex partners.

I would like to see a study using homosexuals and pheromones, and see if there is some type of correlation of attraction. Maybe homosexuals will choose more sweaty towels belonging to men, then women, or be repulsed and find women less attractive if exposed to vaginal secretions. I believe the tests would be inconclusive because the pheromone detectors in the brain are shut off in homosexuals. They are not trapped by the biological need to multiply. The question is what governs homosexual attraction within the homosexual community? I think the answer is social trends, similar to heterosexual attraction behavior. Most gay men find the same men that straight females find attractive. It is the same in the lesbian community.

I believe the trend in answering the question "Did you know you were gay as a child?" by answering yes is a modern trend in the gay community to help legitimize the movement. I wonder what the answer would be 20 years ago. I suspect it would be something on the order of "when I reached puberty I found the same sex more attractive", or "after having an opposite sex relationship in high school I realized I liked the same sex better", then any answer regarding early childhood. As far as I'm concerned girls had Kooties until middle school. I looked at my dad's playboys in fifth grade and found them more funny, then sexual. It wasn't until seventh grade that something changed (puberty). I know people will say "I had a crush on a girl in 3rd grade, or I had my first kiss with a girl in 5th grade", so the attraction was there. I will respond, be honest, you also were very close to your best friend (same sex), and had a few moments of curiosity, which is absolutely normal. My point being we are socialized at an early age by our different sexed parents, that this is what should be, and we gravitate to duplicate the mother and father relationship outside of the home. Real attraction, and sexual urge happens during puberty, everything before is driven by curiosity.

 

[alibaz]

Hi LeBrok - I have a lot of posts to wade through before I can comment properly but what I would like to say is what is NOT natural. An unnatural sexual relationship is one where one party (maybe both), are either non-consenting or have been coerced in some way. Apart from the obvious ones like rape, brutality, child abuse, it could even extend to a loveless hetrosexual marriage.

This is such a subjective discussion. Some people may be afraid of facing their own sexuality and become agressive, some may think that gay relationships threaten society, some may feel it goes against any religious faith they have.

I see you are exploring nature vs nurture - I yet to have to read all this properly.

I would like to ask a question. Does a prisoner consider himself to be gay when he forces his cellmate to submit to his sexual advances?

 

[hope]

I see you are exploring nature vs nurture - I yet to have to read all this properly.

Forgive me alibaz, I see your are in conversation with another member but I think the nature-nurture sentence might have been something I wrote. There are a few posts yet I have to read but as far as I am aware [ and I may be wrong] the actual nature-nurture question, wasn`t being debated, per say.


By the way, interesting question at the end. It could be worded a little clearer however. Do we know if the prisoner is a heterosexual man, are we to assume you mean he is?
You are asking a speculative question, it is hard to say what another person may feel regarding himself. Also why ask if we think he might think himself gay..why not ask if he might rather think himself a rapist, seeing as you say, he forced the other to submit.

 

[Fire Haired]

It's been defeated long time ago by decades of research, you've just never read it.

Right now it seems there is no way anyone is born gay and now ur saying it is a fact some are ur coming to quick conclusions

Again, testosterone doesn't have anything to do with sexual orientation. Only brain architecture does. Testosterone controls sexual libido, but not orientation. Women also have testosterone and actually it is rising with age. And yet older women don't turn lesbian.

We dont even know if there are diff sexual orientations. Tell me how brain architecture is the reason. well then gay people dont just use testosterone for sexual libido they do the same actions like humping which involves the brain if they had diff brain architecture. They would not do that they would make totally different sexual actions.

Aslo i made the point earlier more testosterone in a woman or more estrogen in a man does not make them gay or lesbian. Because to be attracted to women like men are u need male gentiles also if u use male gentiles in sexual things u cant be attracted to men the way women are.

You are on the right track here. Surely it is confusing but it doesn't mean it is not true

.

No offense but it is not confusing for me because i am trying to argue no one is born gay. It is confusing for u to find a answer in science for gay people.

Homosexuality exists also in animal kingdom. Isn't it confusing? but I guess, it makes it natural.

That does not make homosexuality natural. Click here it talks about the very rare occurrence of ape rape on humans uselly apes who grew up with humans meaning it is a psychological thing even though apes don't have much of a brain compared to humans. A famous chimp named Oliver at first suspected of being half human attempted more than once to rape the female owner he grew up with. u will have to search the links and vidoes to find it. click here DNA proves a pitbull raped a 2 year old as sad as that is..

Animal rapes or anything like that on humans is extremely extremely extremely rare but it does happen. Animals would have a better chance feeling attraction for their same gender than a human but what this shows is animals can pervert and dont work like robots. maybe u should read this article about homosexuality amoung animals sometimes it has nothing to do with sex just play that looks like sex at least for dogs here is a link. The article says most animals are not exclusively gay the ones that show homo sides are not 100% homo they mate with the oppiste gender too which in my opinon means their straight just they can pervert it would make more sense with the same species.'It does not matter if their are gay animals animals animal species have choose (click here) many scientist have said animal sexual choose is key to natural selection.

I think u also need to understand people who study this are going to be very pro gay and want to say homosexuality is a bigger deal in animals than it may be. Same with the people who try to find a science reason for homosexuality. That is why no one has done a study on gay animals to say that it is also not natural every study has tried to say it is natural. It does not matter if their are gay animals u need to have string scientific evidence which u dont have.

People with very short 'useless' penises, or having both genitals, or ones with third nipple are confusing too. Why the hell something like this happened? It doesn't make sense.

We are talking specifically about homosexuality u need to give scientific evidence for why it is natural.

Well, it doesn't make sense only from point of view of functionality of normal human being. But nature doesn't give a shit about what we think or feel about this. From dawn of life on Earth, nature uses blind changes, mutations, mistakes, mixing genes of different species, etc,

The gay gene or mutation would not be passed down because they DONT HAVE OFFSPRING. The most important part of evloution and changes in a species is having a good amount of offspring which homosexuality does not have so that makes it impossible to be a gene or mutation. Also most homo animals are not homo they have sex with the same gender and the oppiste gender which i said before shows they have choose and that they are born straight but pervert. There are very few completely gay animals but very biased studies have said in domesticated rams 10% of the males are only gay but if it was a gene that caused that gayness it would not be passed down because they dont have offspring so that means they are just perverting or i guess u can think of another scientific reason but again they HUMP like straight rams so they don't have a diff sexuality or brains structure.

best combination for new successful life forms.

well homosexuality is one of the worst things for evolution and to say homosexuality is natural in a none gene mutation way is extremely unlikely.

If billions of deformed unfortunate individuals dies unhappy in this process, so be it. She doesn't care. Loving mother nature? Think again. How about "cruel beach"?
If god had made us, or any other conscious logical being, even scientists, we all would have been smart, good and beautiful. Unfortunately we are in hands of blind natural selection, the forces of nature, hence the mess, confusion and less than perfect people.

Dont u believe everything is chance so why are calling chance mother nature. U don't know who God is why do u except him ti make ur life perfect or the world perfect. That whole argument if God is real why does my life suck is a terrible argument for no God. God lets us make our own decisions he lets us go i think most things in the world are chance but many things are controlled but in a way u wont notice as much.

cant say if there was a God this is how the world would be U DON'T KNOW HOW THE WORLD WOULD BE NONE OF THAT PROVES THERE IS NO GOD. u are going of the philosophy of Europeans from the 300-present who never read the Bible either because it was in Latin or don't care to. the ones who think God is just this big powerful guy with a beard in the sky. U DON'T KNOW WHO HE IS none of us truly do u cant define who God would be.

I know miracles do happen God has shown himself to human. Why do u think 99.9% of the world in the world except in recent times believes in a God. All religions around the world are similar and have similar traditions on who God is creation stories and flood stories. Since South Africans and Ancient Celts who genetically had been separated for at least 150,000 years had such similar mythology stories is not just random. It is in Human instinct i think to believe in God. i have been talking about natural human society but i forgot about religion which is very important in 99.99% of human soceites.

My family has witnnissed probable miracles but we dont say it was for sure a miracle and dont talk about it alot because we are not suppose to make miracles the base for our faith in God that is what the Bible says.

i would give u examples in another post but right now it would take up to much room.

Going back to gay issue. As I mentioned before, it is not only human phenomenon. Homosexuals or biosexuals exist among other animals too. This actually proves that it is not cultural thing but a easy to make genetic mistake. Looking at science, it is a mistake made during brain development. Individual is getting female like brain in man's body, and vice versa for lesbiens.
However, unlike in animals situation, homosexuality in people happens on bigger scale. We don't know exactly the cause of this increase, and it doesn't make sense from point of view of natural selection, being evolutionary dead end.

Homosexuality is impossible to be genetic because they don't have offspring at least in the animal kingdom. Bisexuality animals do have offspring but where is the scientific evidence for bisexuality. All u are saying is brain structure well then why do bisexual male animals hump like i have said many times they have the same sexual behavior. If a gay or bisexual male humps and has the same behavior as a straight males it is not just testosterone humping takes eyesight and brain's not just feeling. I want to make that clear how canu take male gentiles which are made to make kids and some how change them to be attracted to males that would take an extreme evolution which would make no sense why hump if it does not make kids it does not help their survival it hurts it.

If they had a female brain they would not hump how many times do i have to say gay humans and animals have the same sexual behavior as straight ones. Meaning they dont check each other out like females check out makes they check each other out like males do to females. Humping is not just at testostorne feeling it takes eyes and brains.

However, unlike in animals situation, homosexuality in people happens on bigger scale. We don't know exactly the cause of this increase, and it doesn't make sense from point of view of natural selection, being evolutionary dead end.

This is most likely because gays are known to be aggressive it is true. Also fear of gay's may cause people to be tempted. So if u think homosexuality is natural u have to admit most human gay's probably are not naturally gay u can explain it psychologically but i think u can do that with all of them

Here is my take on this cause:
For a very long time people lived in small patrilocal societies with arranged marriages. Also in small groups any deviation from normal is not tolerated very well, if at all. The disfigured, the gay, the odd looking always got the short end of a stick. Somebody had to be sacrificed for gods, or was kicked out of village for bringing bad luck. Let's be honest, they would be proclaimed unnatural by folks like yourself. The point is that being openly gay wasn't an option (it is still not an option in small European villages). You either pretend that you're straight and marry or you're dead.
Well good amount of social and family pressure, scare of being unnatural and eternity in hell, and gays got married too, and with opposite sex. Some more family pressure and they managed to make kid or two, and their gay mutation could survive in DNA.

Finally someone besides me think's natural human society is patriotical and in small tribes or family groups. I have argued this in history class everyone accused me of being sexiest when i have nothing against women and the type of patriotical i am talking about is not suppose to oppress women.

It does not matter what very smart human society does with arranged marraiges and stuff we are talking about brainless animal society. True animal homosexuals are not natural because they dont produce offspring so they dont pass on a gay gene it is purley mental or another strange mix of up of genes or something i dont know but i dont think it is natural at all.

u cant say all pre historic human societies where the same that is being a bad historian but u are partly right about many ancient societies but probably not most and not all marriages where arranged.

 

[hope]

We dont even know if there are diff sexual orientations

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Sexual Orientation is a term used to describe patterns of enduring emotional,romantic and sexual attraction. The criteria for this is one thing with heterosexual men and women and another thing for homosexual men or lesbian women. We see this in life, it is there, ergo it exists.
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Because to be attracted to women like men are u need male gentiles also if u use male gentiles in sexual things u cant be attracted to men the way women are.

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No and No. [And can we leave the Gentiles out of this one]

No offense but it is not confusing for me because i am trying to argue no one is born gay.

How do you know this? Where have you read this? And to quote yourself .."give scientific evidence". Your opinion just wont do here.

That does not make homosexuality natural

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You are talking about one of the most basic human instincts..the wish to love and be loved, the desire to care and be cared for. This need has no notion of colour or gender.

I think u also need to understand people who study this are going to be very pro gay

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How do you know this..it`s quite a statement.

We are talking specifically about homosexuality u need to give scientific evidence for why it is natural

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Why? Who is to say what is and what is not natural?

The gay gene or mutation would not be passed down because they DONT HAVE OFFSPRING.

Yes, I recall recently pointing that out to you when you said this:

if homosexuals did not reproduce the gene would die out.

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well homosexuality is one of the worst things for evolution

In what way? It has been around for quite some time and society has not been affected

u are going of the philosophy of Europeans from the 300-present who never read the Bible either because it was in Latin or don't care to. the ones who think God is just this big powerful guy with a beard in the sky

Please, spare us the religious lesson and don`t presume to know what other people think about God or if they have or have not read the bible..that is just too arrogant

u can explain it psychologically

No, you cannot. Being homosexual or lesbian is not a mental health health issue whatsoever. There are many who suffer some psychological problems because of it however, due to how they are treated by some sections of society or made to feel different. Many are isolated and do not know where to turn for counsel. At least 30 times more homosexual men will attempt suicide compared to heterosexual men. At least 6 times more lesbian women will attempt suicide than heterosexual women. Now it is a sad thing when a human feels their only option is to take their own life. It is also a poor reflection on our society IMO.


On a final note, before I leave this thread. You have been given links to studies here, you have heard other members tell you of findings from MRI scans [ I am not sure to which study the poster was referring but it may have been that carried out at the Stockholm Institute] and you have heard other very good opinions. And your response to all of this has been to stamp your foot and insist only you have the answer. You have done this while using very negative semantics regarding homosexual or lesbian people. Could I remind you Eupedia is a very large forum, it has a large number of members and also visitors to its pages. Do you really think [ or care] that perhaps not all are of the heterosexual lifestyle and many seeing some of your "finer" pieces may be much insulted.


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