A genetic probe into the ancient and medieval history of Southern Europe and WestAsia

[Ralphie Boy]

The interesting thing imho is the following:

It seems that some Ionic Greeks had Y-DNA J2a-Y14434 (taking into account Spata and Phocis samples). The Pelagonians in what is now North Macedonia probably had the upstream clade J2a-Y13128 (taking into account the Plaosnik samples).

Based on the samples we have currently clades of J2a-Y13128 first appear in what is now Croatia ~6600 years ago then in a Cycladic culture context.

Interestingly, upstream J-Z27907 seems to exist in Modern Albania. https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z27907/

I think I have seen other old rare J2a samples in Albania.

The study showed also that there was early prescence of non L283 J2b in Albania, which is also noteworthy.

Turns out someone in the family is probable T-CTS933. This clade’s sub-branches were found in Archaic and Roman Greece. They are found among modern Albanians, Italians, Turks and other Europeans, including in Medieval Italian samples above and below the branch in one of the SNP trackers. This is another rare branch. Seeing this shows the limitation of modern national borders when it comes to ancient ancestry.

 

[torzio]

Turns out someone in the family is probable T-CTS933. This clade’s sub-branches were found in Archaic and Roman Greece. They are found among modern Albanians, Italians, Turks and other Europeans, including in Medieval Italian samples above and below the branch in one of the SNP trackers. This is another rare branch. Seeing this shows the limitation of modern national borders when it comes to ancient ancestry.

this marker is 7800 years old...it ranged from Azeri lands to Dutch lands

 

[torzio]

EDIT

I had read it wrong, Jovialis. I had read Albanians and Greeks instead of their languages. My fault.


Interesting one. Where did you find it Jovialis?

? for italic

Liguri and Etruscan Italic would be very different from Adriatic Italic in the beginning

Does Celtic take in Gallic or just plain ancient central european Celtic

 

[Francesco]

? for italic
Liguri and Etruscan Italic would be very different from Adriatic Italic in the beginning
Does Celtic take in Gallic or just plain ancient central european Celtic

I think the "?" means that we don't actually know if the italic language might be associated with a Beaker complex.

Some authors do indeed believe that at least the first wave of proto-italic speakers in the peninsula could be traced back to the Polada culture or at least to the Terramare culture, wich presents (at least the Polada culture) somo point of contact with the Bell Beaker phenomenon.

Other authors believe that proto italic speakers descended in Italy with the spread of the Urnfield culture, and specifically with the diffusion of the Protovillanovan culture in all the paeninsula.

The two theories are not necessarily in disagreement, since it could be that the spread of the protovillanovan culture could be linked to a more recent wave of proto-italic, while the Polada and Terramare cultures could be linked to a more ancient italic expansion.
As far as I know, however, both of this theories are just hypothesis.

It should be noted that the protovillanovan culture, however, spread all over the peninsula and was not necessarily linked to regions were italic language was attested in the following eras: even the etruscans, whic - is believed - didn't speak an italic (nor indo european) language, are associated to the protovillanovan culture and expecially with Villanovan culture of the early Iron age.

As far as Ligures are concerned, their affiliation with the italic language is still debated: some believe they spoke, indeed, an italic language, others say they were celtic speakers; a third hypothesis wants them to be some sort of hybrid between the italic and celtic world (maybe a legacy of an ancient italo-celtic koinè?).

I think the same reasoning could be valid for the spread of the celtic languages and culture as well, wich stemmed from the Alps only at the beginning of the Iron age from an Urnfield-like complex (Hallstatt).

So, an association with the beaker phenomenon isn't yet proved nor for italic nor for celtic, I guess. Expecially if there were languages in the Balkans still directly related to the Yamnaya horizon, I guess we shouldn't completely rule out the possibility that even italic and celtic languages could have been Yamnaya related and not mediated by Bell Beakers.

 

[Jovialis]

Albanian and Greek are descended directly from the Yamnaya. We see a cline from Yamnaya, all the way to Greece_N, and Albania_N. With samples like Yamnaya_Bulgaria_o, and Logkas_MBA intermediary. Mycenaean clearly on the cline as well closer to the original Neolithic people in Greece. I think it is possible this same dynamic played out in southern Italy as well, during the Bronze Age. My own halopgroup is from the Yamnaya in the Balkans EBA, which also shows up in Mycenaean Greece.

We are talking about this very topic in the Albanian ethnogenesis pre-print paper.

 

[epirus1000]

What do you think was the haplogroup of the Griffin Warrior?

I suppose it's F, sample I13519, but you never know. There is almost no information on these cases.

Check this useless article by a greek portal: https://greekreporter.com/2023/06/13/ancient-dna-proves-griffin-warrior-greek/
Its basically not saying anything.
So, an haplogroup F is now Greek. Good job Greeks.

 

[Omino]

I suppose it's F, sample I13519, but you never know. There is almost no information on these cases.

Check this useless article by a greek portal: https://greekreporter.com/2023/06/13/ancient-dna-proves-griffin-warrior-greek/
Its basically not saying anything.
So, an haplogroup F is now Greek. Good job Greeks.

The article says nothing about haplogroups, dunno where your assumptions coming from

 

[peloponnesian]

I suppose it's F, sample I13519, but you never know. There is almost no information on these cases.

Check this useless article by a greek portal: https://greekreporter.com/2023/06/13/ancient-dna-proves-griffin-warrior-greek/
Its basically not saying anything.
So, an haplogroup F is now Greek. Good job Greeks.

It's a conspiracy, the nefarious Greek archaeologists intentionally removed all steppe ancestry from the bone sample of the Griffin Warrior and made the Y chromosome reads low coverage in order the hide his true Illyrian identity

 

[Omino]

It's a conspiracy, the nefarious Greek archaeologists intentionally removed all steppe ancestry from the bone sample of the Griffin Warrior and made the Y chromosome reads low coverage in order the hide his true Illyrian identity

You're a liar!
It's a well known fact that the Griffin warrior was not genetically and culturally Minoan/Mycenaean Greek but alien from Luke Skywalker's Planet Tatooine.